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mcaryf
Private
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 09 2008 : 01:36:50 AM
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Hi Jo
I do not personally regard myself as being pro or anti either Custer or Benteen. I think they were both trying to do their jobs as best they could that day.
I think there were good reasons for everything Custer did until he lead his troops down towards MTC and I only make that cut off because I do not really know what situations he faced after that. The fact that there were good reasons for his decions does not of course mean that his decisions turned out to be the right ones.
With respect to Benteen I also do not think there were major things he obviously did wrong given the knowledge he had at the time. With hindsight we can see that the delay at the Morass was unfortunate and he would have been able to water his horses quicker further down Reno Creek but plainly he did not know that. There was a degree of confusion on Reno Hill and in the advance and withdrawal from Weir Peaks but this was largely due to Reno suffering from shock (or if Donovan is right alcohol). It was not unreasonable that it took Benteen a relatively brief amount of time to effectively assume command over Reno.
I do not think that Benteen told the whole story at the RCOI but I do not think that his motives there were dishonourable and if this resulted in Custer getting a share of the blame for the disaster that was fair.
The buck stops with the CO and whilst there were good reasons for Custer's decisions they still turned out to be fatal for his command. Given the choices Custer made, his command was doomed to defeat regardless of how well or poorly either Reno or Benteen performed because there were just too many well armed warriors prepared to fight.
Regards
Mike |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2008 : 06:54:27 AM
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I have to agree with the SGtMajor here--Benteen had absolutely no intention of moving to Weir Point (or doing anything else of an offensive nature) until embarassed by Weir, who at least realized they ought to be doing SOMETHING.
The whole plan was faulty to begin with and was poorly executed by ALL the commanders--Custer, Reno, and Benteen. Custer found out the hard way--Reno and Benteen at least got to live with the knowledge.
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Edited by - Brent on August 09 2008 07:18:29 AM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 10 2008 : 2:08:04 PM
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I think it very important to mention here as to what Custer wanted
Benteen to do. Let's point something out here. In my own opinion what
Custer wanted Benteen to do was simple, and you can't insert some-
thing that is not there. We have I mentioned that Martin's stories has
changed over the years, but he mentions one thing that did not
change. On that day he was orderly to Custer and knew most of what
he was doing more then anyone else, other then Cooke.
Custer called Martin to him and said. "orderly I want you to take
a message to Col Benteen. Ride as fast as you can and tell him to
hurry. Tell him it's a big village and I want him to be quick, and to
bring the ammunition packs.". Now Custer plainly stated what he wanted
to Martin. However, Cooke steps in and stopped Martin. Cooke tells
Martin, I will give you a message, wrote it on a piece of paper and
telling Matin to take it to Benteen, However in doing so he left out
the word ammunition. Custer clearly knew what he wanted, but that is
not what Cooke wrote.
And truely believe Custer was under the impression that Benteen would
be up soon. And never knew what Cooke had wrote in the message. Martin
never knew what was in the message, as he said he did not look at it.
The other thing is that Benteen was not expected or asked to protect
the packs, even with what Cooke wrote there is nothing that suggest
that is what Benteen was to do, The pack train was was well protected
and McDougalls force was larger then Benteens. And I would also like
to point out here, that Martin had told WC in his interview withhim,as
I had mentioned before, that when he was at the COI, that it had been
desired that he not tell all he knew.
I know that Matin's story changed at times, but then again so did many
others. The "fact" as we know them, came from flawed memories of people
who where there.
Let me say that not always we will agree, and that is only natural. The
answer to the puzzles lies at the heart of what the LBH is and has be-
come and we who write about it and talk about it made it so. Surrounded
by mystery and above all mythology, piled high in symbolism and meaning,
the LBH is an avalanche of ideas, or any cause or principle that we
can imagine. This comes from many years of struggle from those who
had an interest in shaping the LBH in one way or the other. With the idea
that who would come after, would view the LBH in a different ways.It
comes from flawed memories of those who took part and other witnesses
and expanded over the years. The story of the LBH has become a great
mythology, being anything we want it to be, readers, writers, forums,
and historians, in what we see as positive. This is the way it was and
will always be. And we will all have our own theory's and idea's and
veiw the battle in different ways. And when we can't agree is because
it does not fit in to our own idea's as to what took place.
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 10 2008 : 6:05:25 PM
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Sgtmajor, I congratulate you on a well written summation of Martin's assignment sans personal perspectives, hypothetical, and philosophical meanderings. Reduced to the common denominator, this kernel of truth shines like a beacon across the night sky.In the role of "orderly" martini was privy to conversations between the General and the command staff.
While Martini may not have been fluent in English, he certainly must have possessed a significant understanding of the language to have been in a position to perform his duties. The moment Custer relayed, "Tell him its a big village" all else was mere commentary. Benteen understood exactly what was meant. There were no satellite villages as at the Wa****a, all the Indians were at one location, cut the ammunition packs away from the slower train and speed them forward.
Custer anticipated Benteen's arrival to be soon because Boston Custer arrived a few minutes before unscathed and, advised Custer that he had passed Benteen on the way. If Boston could do it alone than, certainly, Ben teen with three companies should have been able to do so also. When Ben teen delayed on Reno Hill for over an hour, he failed to obey a direct order in spirit if not to the letter.
It was this factor, among others, that Ben teen wished to keep secret. Thus, he resorted to outrageous remarks and denials while doing so. In his defense, I would like to say that Martini's oral remarks may have lulled the Major into thinking that the battle was over for all intent and purposes. However, once he realized the state of Reno's men, heard the sounds of gunfire in volleys, he should have proceeded on. Again, a great job!
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2008 : 12:59:05 PM
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Good points guys!! I never really gave much thought to the fact that Custer probably never saw Cooke's written order. And I certainly agree that Custer and Cooke both meant hurry the ammo forward. A question though--would have it been practical or feasable to separate the ammo from the rest of the train and hurry just that forward?? I ask only because I am not familiar with pack trains and mules. And clearly the train had it's own large escort. At some point in every battle the pack train (or supply train, whatever) has to hunker down and fend for itself. Concentrate everything on simply protecting the packs and that leaves little room for anything else.
AS for Benteen's lack of "speed" getting to Reno Hill, I still suggest that it didn't matter what he THOUGHT was going on with Custer. His orders were to be quick, and once he arrived at the scene, he'd find out what was going on and be given new orders.
But thanks in part to Reno, it didn't even work out that way. He was rendered totally ineffective after his rout, and my guess is that many of his men were in no mood to tangle with the Indians who had just thrashed them. So I wonder even IF Benteen was in the mood to find Custer, just how much use would he have gotten from Reno's men?
Just as a sidebar to the whole "protect the pack train" thing, remember Alexander the Great at Arbela? The Persian cavalry completely enveloped him on both wings. Once they got behind him, rather than turning back to take him in the rear, they all went after the lightly guarded suppies. While they were having a ball doing that, Alexander was able to rout Darius and his Army. He then just went back and recovered his supply camp. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2008 : 1:48:54 PM
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Brent, you bring up a very good point. But I do have one question
that does come in to mind once every once in awhile. If Reno had
remained in the timber say 10 or 15 minutes longer, which Benteen
would have arrived when he did. And those Indian scouts that he
had seen waving him to the right, would Benteen still have gone to
right, or would he have gone to assist Reno in the timber. Keep in
mind now that Benteen did see some fighting going on in the valley.
And gone to the right when the scouts directed him that way. Of
course the scouts would have been there also. But,only if it was as
I said above, what do you think Benteen would have done.?
Now also keep in mind one other thing, while on his march to the
left, he was given instructions to pitch in to anything he seen,
he didn't see anything, so would that part of his instructions still
hold true, or would he only go by his order sent by Custer and do
nothing till the packs got and recieved further orders.?
I for one beliveve that he may set up a skirmish line, and wait for
further orders. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2008 : 2:25:10 PM
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Well-Reno wouldn't have been sobbing for help, so Benteen would have had less justification for stopping to help him and more of a "need" to meet up with the general who sent him the order to come quick.
I agree with you though--Benteen would most likely have stopped in his tracks and awaited developments. Hard to tell what further orders would have come from Custer, who had already ordered him to join him. My guess also is that the Indians would most likely have all gone for Custer as they did, perceiving him to be the real threat. That would leave Reno in the timber, sort of in one piece and free to retreat back to Reno Hill (or wherever Benteen decided to stop). And then both Reno and Benteen sit tight while Custer is killed.
The "pitch-in" thing has always troubled me. I guess Benteen was told that, but I'm not really sure. IT's the sort of thing Custer MIGHT have said, but rather silly when you have no idea what it is you are ordering your man to pitch in to..some fleeing warriors, or an entire Village?? One wonders what would have happened IF Benteen had actually found Indians on his little scout and just "pitched in"? Talk about chaos!! |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2008 : 3:27:38 PM
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Brent, you may be right about the pitch in thing. We always have to
keep in mind that Custer himself did not give the instructions to
Benteen or Reno, it was all done by Cooke, that just may have been
a phrase that Benteen used, or words used by Cooke to that effect.
Brent you were says before about the pack train and where the ammo
may have been placed in the train. It would be interesting to know.
I know from my time in the service, in convoys there were 2 2 1/2
trucks and one 5 ton. The five was used to carry heavy and light
weapons. the 2 1/2's carry spare ammo, and we could only carry
so much between movements. These trucks were placed in the middle
of the convoy, in front and back of the trucks was a jeep each
with a 50 cal mounted on them, and one 2 1/2 truck had a 50 cal
mounted on it.
I did remember that at the COI, Godfrey says he stopped at the
morass to get his company packs out of the bog. Maybe for each
company, packs was assigned an ammo pack. Which would mean the
ammo was spread thru out the train. Don't really know never did
think about it. |
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mcaryf
Private
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2008 : 7:19:01 PM
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In thinking about what Benteen might or might not have done, you have to remember that neither Custer nor Martini had seen fit to tell Benteen about the separation of the Reno and Custer units.
Thus when Benteen first saw the fight in the valley he thought the whole command had been committed there. He had seen some sort of division in the trail but as Martini had told him he thought Custer would have already attacked, the valley force could well have included Custer by the time Benteen had arrived.
Whether he would have crossed the river and attacked or stayed on the same side as the train would probably have depended on what he could actually see. If Reno's force was still in the timber, its size would be hard to judge. Benteen might reasonably have judged that they would need more ammo sooner or later and so he ought to wait and either fight the train to them or facilitate them coming to the train. However, I think there is enough to worry about trying to work out what did happen without considering what might have!
Regards
Mike
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 06:54:05 AM
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True--Benteen would have had no good idea what was going on when he arrived, with Reno still in the Timber. But I still think he would most likely stayed on the other side, ascertained that Reno and Custer had separated, waited for Reno to leave the timber (once the Indians all went for Custer) and then both would have simply stayed put.
What do you think of the "pacs" thing in the order? It's the only abbreviation, and twice repeated. The order dosen't say "ammo" or ammunition, but neither does it say "pack train". Would a reasonable officer been able to conclude that "pacs" meant "ammo pacs"?? As opposed to "hardtack pacs" , or "coffee pacs"?? And if so,could the ammunition alone have been speeded up? If not, then Custer was asking for the almost impossible, as the pack train itself was notorious for being slow and it would have been difficult to speed it up.
I'm asking this assuming Custer knew that Benteen wasn't such a dunderhead as to simply abandon the all packs and rush to Custer. As though the order might have said "Come Quick-forget the packs". |
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mcaryf
Private
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 08:22:26 AM
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Hi Brent
At the time we are talking about I do not think that Mathey or McDougall had taken any steps to close up the ammunition mules. Thus they were most probably dispered in their company groups. I beleive that the mules carrying the ammunition were the ones with better equipment (aparejos?) so there was some potential for speeding them separately. However, in my opinion at the time he sent the message to Benteen Custer was not asking him to rush ahead with just the ammo but rather escort as much of the train as possible to a place of safety not too far from the village which is where I think Custer thought that he himself would be.
I am not convinced that the warriors would have all gone to Custer if Reno had stayed in the timber. It was the fact that Reno's attack had ended in obvious defeat that released them. However, I also think that there were still more than enough warriors to pin Reno in the timber and hold Custer away from the village. To get to the village Custer would have had to undertake an opposed river crossing, my guess is that he was moving downriver to avoid that when he was overwhelmed and his decision not to follow through with an all out attack at MTC was taken whilst most of the warriors were still confronting or chasing Reno.
Regards
Mike |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2008 : 4:43:52 PM
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Mike,
I am convinced that when Custer said he would supprt Reno, he meant
just that. Custer was going to use one of the supporting tactics he
used a great deal during the civil war. And one that has been used
from the time of the revolution. It is known as a "Supporting Attack"
generally carried out by a small force and a larger force. The larger
force will generally make the main attack.
The supporting attack is designed to hold the enemy in position, and to
deceive him as to where the main attck is going to be made, to prevent
him from reinforcing the elements opposing the main effort. I believe
this what Custer was doing here, When Reno hit the village with his
attack any Indians would come out to oppose that attack,which they did.
When in the woods, the claim has been made by some that Custer was on
the bluffs seen waving his hat.
Custer was well aware as to what was going on with Reno's attack, who
ever was on the bluffs Custer or some one else, I don't believe they
were just up there waving. I believe they were trying to signel Reno
to continue the attack on the village.However Reno choose to get out of
there, the little force of Indains at the ford opposing Custer's move
to cross was now being reinforced by those Indians from Reno's front.
Now Custer had to do something to take the pressure off Reno,so he moved
his force on down stream causing the Indians to go after him. Keep in
mind he sent for Benteen, and did not want a large force of Indians to
be in that area. I am sure that Custer may have thought that between
Benteen's Command and McDougall's they could handle any small force
that may attack them. Weather this be the case or not, no one really
knows, but during the civil war he used it with great effect. There
are other things I think took place there, which I will talk about at
an other time.
Mike I also want to make a comment about the pack train, but I got to
run out to the local armory for "Happy Hour" don't want to miss that. |
Sgtmajor |
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mcaryf
Private
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 06:02:05 AM
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Hi SgtMajor
The difference between a Civil War action and the LBH was that Custer was attacking an enemy that was both surprised and encumbered with their families. Thus the enemy was not drawn uniformly to the end of the village where Reno was attacking but rather responded as their own circumstances dictated. Thus warriors might initially have been getting families away or going off to the pony herd to find a mount. This meant that there were still plenty near the far end of the village when Custer appeared.
Most reasonable estimates put the number of warriors available to fight that day at between 1500 and 2500. The highest estimate of those opposing Reno on the valley floor that I have seen is 1,000. Thus there were 500 - 1,500 potentially available to stand off Custer at the same time.
The accounts of small numbers of warriors opposing Custer describe the numbers to the East of the LBH, in my opinion there were many more visible in the vicinity of the village on the West bank and this would have been enough to deter Custer from an attempted crossing. In addition it seems that any crossing at MTC would put the troopers in amongst the tepis which stretched that far. The cavalry had two main advantages - cohesion and longer range weaponry. Both these advantages would be lost once the cavalry entered the actual village. My best guess is that Custer was moving downriver to find a better point to cross when his command were effectively forced onto the defensive and subsequently overwhelmed.
Thus Reno did attract warriors to his end of the village and his flight actually pulled them even further away than if he had stayed. However, there were still enough warriors to deal with the threat from Custer at the same time.
Regards
Mike |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 06:58:27 AM
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And in any case, just staying put on Reno Hill for an hour gave ALL the Indians a chance to overwhelm Custer.
The attack lacked almost all co-ordination, while a part of the command (Benteen) had no idea what was going on. Custer well knew the #of Indians he might face, and there had been some "indications" from several sources that they might be ready to fight-even not knowing what had happened to Crook.
Breaking up the command in the face of that was just plain STUPID!!! And then having it uncoordinated to boot, with added poor performances by Reno (especially) and Benteen. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 1:22:27 PM
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Brent has a very valid point, in which it is something I have been
saying all along. Now to a point I would like to bring. Weather it
be the civil war or a war fighting Indians, it really does not make
that much difference when you are going to attack. The same principles
apply, as to how you are going to fight that battle, and how each in
your command is to take part. This is a point in which I believe that
Brent is pointing out. It is basicly called the "Commander's Intent".
It is the commander's stated vision of the battle, which defines, the
purpose, the end state with respect to the relationship among the
force, the enemy, the terrain and how the end state will be achieved
by the force as a whole. The test of understanding the commander's
intent is for the subordinate to act in concert with the commander's
desires in a situation where the circumstances are different from
those foreseen at the time the plan was issued and the commander
can be reached for a decision.
Here you can see that Custer had a plan, and an "Intent", but only
known to himself, no instructions of his entent or plan was in any
way communicated to his subordinate commanders. Reno was given an
order to attck the Indians, and would be supported, Benteen was
out on a worthless mission, with no knowledge as to what Reno or
Custer was doing. Now two messagers arrive to deliver a message to
the pack train commander, sent by Tom Custer, and that message to
McDougall, was almost the same message sent later by Martin. At
that time, Custer was located where Reno made his stand on the hill.
Here again you have the same problem of time and distances, and no
intent or plan communicated by the commander.Mcdougall according
to Sgt Ryan in the "Custer Myth" had about 150 mules in the pack
train. When Custer then moved down stream, now Sgt Kanipe knew
where Custer was when he left, and even if Mcdougall had moved
as quickly as he could, he wouldn't have found Custer. He moved
a few more miles down stream. And sent an other messager this
time to Benteen. Which means the distance for Benteen and for
McDougall had increased, with still no knowledge of Custer' intent
or plan.
The thing is it has always been said that Custer was not aware
of the size of the village till he moved down stream. I can't
quit swallow that one, due to the fact that Tom Custer told
Sgt Kanipe to take a meassage to McDougall which Kanipe had
stated said, "Bring packs, be quick, Big Indain Camp. If it
was Custer's intent to support Reno from down stream, which
I believe it was, why did he not leave an officer, to guide
and to explain his intent or plan for those offcers he sent
for. Custer did nothing to inform any of his subordinates as
to what his intent was or his plan of action, they were left
to make there own ddecisions, due to the fact they could not
locate there commander
When Custer was located on Reno Hill he should have remained
there until he seen the effect of what Reno's attack would do
and what Indain force would confront him. Then planned what
he intented to do and so inform all his commander's. Here you
have to come to the defense of Benteen. In my own small opinion
Custer should have sent an officer to Benteen and not an orderly,
even if Cooke had sent a written message, an officer would have
more then likely explained more to him, and Benteen would have
asked more questions of him, the then "Be quick" Bring packs, no
other information was given Benteen.
One other point, I do believe that Custer was still in the MTC
area when Benteen arrived on the hill, there was a delay in that
area, and I believe like "Michno" that Custer was at a point, be
it east ridge or not he may have spotted Benteen, why did he not
send a meassge to Benteen then as to where he was, according to
those on the hill there was but few indians in there front on the
hill and all the Indians had left the valley and went down stream.
As a commander in battle failed in a manner that cost him five
companies of his command, all due to his moveing away from any kind
of support, not using the force he had properly, and above all not
communicateing his intent or plan to his subordinates. Leaving them
to make there own decisions as what they should do. We can all say
that Benteen and Reno should not have delayed the lenght of time
they did on the hill, even if Benteen was only able to go a mile
he should have at least tried, he did have an order and should
have made the effort to obey it, and he could use the excuse that
he did not know where Custer had gone, Martin could have answered
that question, the same direction he went an 1 1/2 later.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2008 : 11:43:10 PM
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You're not providing quotes of what you think Reno said to illustrate your points. My recollection is they do not support your claims.
You operate on hindsight. For all Reno or Benteen knew, there was an equally large village on the east bank. They could not see beyond Sharpshooter except along the bank where it's blocked by Weir Pt.
There was no order to go to Custer. None. In any event, he'd been detached by Reno.
Again, what was the obligation to leave the packs, Reno's wounded and horseless, and Benteen's group as separate entities divided in the face of a superior enemy? The obligation was to mission, and to function together, not risk all by advancing in a thread to be overrun piece by piece.
The message of Kanipe's was far more dubious and more indicative of stress than Martin's, because he was told to rush 'overland' and leave any dropped boxes. As a Share program with the enemy. Dubious a Custer would say that.
Kanipe is not supported in his claims he gave any message to either officer with the train. His story also got more embellished as years went by. Like Martin's.
Nobody knew where Custer was beyond a reasonable supposition there'd been a fight up north, and nobody had reason to think Custer'd not done as well as Reno. When found, Custer and several officers were not in the center of an organized defense, but rather looked as though shot off their horses as they summitted LSH with their followers nailed in line.
Tell us how many men of Reno's - at the time in question upon Reno Hill - were able to move on horses? It took 8 men in two teams to move each of the wounded. How many of those were there? In short, how much of Reno's three companies were able to function as cavalry in any advance?
And finally, and yet again, quote me the obligation that US officers are required against all sense, all ability, to risk the regiment unnecessarily to possibly save the commander's unit? And, frankly, they only had the vaguest idea of 'commander's intent' beyond hit the village and capture what they could. The facts on the ground precluded that. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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mcaryf
Private
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 02:08:07 AM
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It does seem that Custer could have done more with respect to keeping his subordinates informed. However, if we are to be charitable, we have to allow that it is possible that he sent additional messengers who did not get through.
There are a number of problems with Knipe as a bona fide messenger not least the fact that the intended recipients denied getting his message. However, on balance I judge that he was a messenger mainly because Custer ought to have sent one to the packs at that time.
I do not think Custer could have sent an officer but after all Knipe was a senior NCO.
Martini obviously proved to be a poor choice as a messenger but I am not really sure whose choice he was. I presume Benteen allocated him to Custer that day as an orderly but was he just following a process that required the orderly to be Martini because he was a trumpeter?
My own personal opinion is that Custer did not think he was sending a critically important message to Benteen on which his own life might depend. Sending Martini was a last minute thought by Custer before his command got embroiled in battle, giving Benteen an update on the village and telling him to escort the packs to a secure position before joining Custer in mopping up the village.
Probably the right time to have sent a messenger to recall Benteen was when Custer committed Reno to attack the village. At this stage Varnum came to Custer and reported the situation in the valley, so Custer knew there no other villages in the vicinity upstream. There is a hint in some accounts that one of the Rees may have been sent up South Reno Creek but if he was, he would not have and indeed did not find Benteen.
Regards
Mike |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 10:32:49 AM
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Based on what many believe Custers actions to have been prior to Last Stand Hill, it seems very likely that he wanted Benteen to come to HIM and expected Benteen to come to HIM.
Granted-- once Benteen arrived at Reno Hill, things were confusing and I can't fault him for stopping to bail out Reno,
though I do think if he'd hurried along a bit more he might have arrived while Reno was still across the river and not a beaten man.
Anyway, once Reno was settled down and almost every Indian galloping away (to attack Custer), SOME effort should have been made to at least ascertain what was going on with the general and that part of he command. Not enough to think that he could "handle things" when one part of the command had just received an unmitigated drubbing. IT appears that a few other officers and some EM's thought the same--but Reno and Benteen didn't. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 1:33:00 PM
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DarK Cloud, Let me point out to you, that in any post you have
written on this forum, you are under the impression that both
Benteen and Reno walked on water. You have also been under the
impression that officers in the army, could do as they seen fit
and were not duty bound to follow orders.
You seem to always bring up the fact that people don,t supply
references as to what they are saying in a post. Let me point
out something for you. I do go to other forums, to see what others
have to say about what we discuss here.
Unwanted Testimony, Jul 1, 2008, 10:01 am. which you can read
for yourself. Post made by elisabeth.
And I quote, "All I am asking is that you apply the same rigour, and
consistency, and stardard of proof to your own statements that you
demand from the rest of us. Not to unreasonable, I think"
End of quote.
If I post it I read it, or have research it, and you can check if
you have desire but, all officers and enlisted persons are duty
bound to obey any order given to them and to carry it out to the
best of their abilities. Now a quote of my own, "when you live
in a glass house don't throw rocks."
No disrespect intended, just have a little more respect for other
peoples veiws as you want them to respect yours. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 3:07:46 PM
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I don't yearn for the respect of others on message boards. I'm never quite sure, for example, that you and a few others aren't creations of Wiggs, who currently is licking ankles trying to get them to say something nice about him.
I don't think officers can do what they want. I know they are empowered to make decisions based upon new information. You keep insisting that note was an order to be obeyed regardless. If an order, it doesn't give location or say "come to me" and in any case, it was obeyed. It doesn't flense out for attention ammo from packs, so Benteen is stuck with the packs, arriving at Custer without them is not obeying this 'order.' Those who think Benteen should have come faster need to read Custer's explanation about how cavalry is to arrive ready to take the offensive absent specific orders otherwise, which the note was not. Benteen, a good cavalry officer, did fine, and his command produced no exhausted horses as Custer and Reno's did. Like mcaryf, I think the note was a mere exhortation: game on, come on, bring packs.
And I do not think Reno and Benteen walk on water, and you can find nothing
to suggest that on any forum. I only ask that the three officers be judged by the same standards. The poster you quote was wrong in her accusation. Not that it matters.
If you present yourself as a soldier - I do not because I am not - you should have more respect for procedure and not condemn without sure evidence the command decisions of officers on the ground. You say an officer did wrong not to go to Custer, even though nobody could know where, exactly, he would be and riding out in a search with wounded and those on foot and endanger the train to no purpose would be the definition of mission incompatable. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 6:19:21 PM
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As a soldier I have always given great respect to officer, NCO's
and enlisted men in the performance of there duties, and I have
been in positions where I questioned an officers actions, and if
I felt he was wrong and going outside of his orders, as an NCO
it was duty, and not just for me, but a whole company of men, who
put trust in the people who are leading them, it is a part of the
responsibility you take upon yourself when you become an NCO or
officer.
As for others on the forum, they have their views and their opinions
and I respect that, Mike says what he thinks something meant, Brent
does the same, and they make valid points, we are all trying to make
some sense as to what took place, and we should respect everyone's
veiws weather we agree or not, and I respect many of your veiws and
points of which many are valid.
DC there only one thing that makes a person think that something was
not right on that hill, and is in the person of Weir, and remember
that Benteen had shown him the order, once again this is only an
opinion.
If I appeared to be disrespectful to you, I apologize. Lets move
on. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 9:30:21 PM
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SgtMajor,
I truly find myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to read the informative and wonderful threads from you, Mike, Brent, Frankbodden and others on this forum. Let me, please, explain why I have so much enthusiasm. All of you have,obviously,taken the time to read, digest, assimilate, and discuss with others the facts of this battle. That I am correct in my summation is exemplified by your posts; they are fantastic.
Unfortunately, It appears to me that a minute minority of our society simply can not debate issues, disagree with dignity, or state their case with out resorting to personal innuendos and slander. Ironically,we have a self professed intellectual who stands upon the mountaintop and bellows, "I am correct, all others (particularly Wiggs) know not of which they speak."
Dark Cloud, with you infinite wisdom, why have you not written the be all and end all tome of this battle?
Dark Cloud will never understand the need to be respected nor, does he wish to be respected. One who has never received respect can not understand it. He is incapable of understanding that "true" men do not attack each other in cypher space. True men who find themselves enmeshed in an unresolved, verbal conflict will choose to challenge the offender by meeting (in person if necessary)and reach a manly resolution. Dark Cloud simply hides behind unsubstantiated slams, false accusations, and muck and mire.
A pathetic and sad individual whom nobody likes, he does not possess the intestinal fortitude to be a man. He, therefore, hides behind verbal rhetoric and,toots his own rusty horn unto oblivion.
Please, all of you contributors who given so much to this forum, do not let this pathetic spouter of condemnation influence you. Continue to give your worthy perspectives so that all of us can continue to share your contributions.
Last but, certainly not least Dark Cloud, what would you do if you didn't have me to condemn? |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2008 : 11:03:31 PM
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| Hang in Joe, your alright |
Sgtmajor |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 15 2008 : 11:30:01 AM
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Sgtmajor, you need to familiarize yourself with Wiggs before you go out of your way to defend him. He lies. When confronted with his own postings, he denies he posted it. It's not just me.
Wiggs, just who exactly do you think you're fooling? Your denial and your original statement use ALMOST EXACTLY the same words.
THE DENIAL: "I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind on the valley floor."
THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT: "Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE obsevred being slaughtered in the valley."
I can't distinguish between these comments at all, except that in one you're obviously lying when you deny making the original statement.
The most disturbing thing about this is that you claim to have once been a police officer. It's scary to think that anybody was ever sent to jail based mainly on the sworn testimony of Officer Joseph Wiggs.
R. Larsen
Oh, and here it is, on this forum:
http://www.mohicanpress.com/messageboard2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=145&whichpage=3
You should read it all, it's quite funny. Wiggs also claims to have been a soldier, a teacher, an athlete, a police officer, and now he's married, we're to believe, to a woman who shares the same grammatical errors as himself.
In any case, Weir was concerned about being left out of the victory, it seems, because once confronted with the reality, he wilts. It's not like he and his orderly raced to Weir Pt., they plodded carefully, as they should have. If you did not already know the land, the trip to Weir does not look inviting, given huge numbers could be behind Sharpshooter. The closer you get to sight of what is now known as the Custer Field the worse the land looks for cavalry.
So, back to my questions.
1. What was the number of men from Reno's three companies that had mounts and were able to act as cavalry AT THE TIME IN QUESTION. This requires knowledge of wounded men AND horses. Of the wounded who could not ride for any reason, were there enough unwounded now infantry to carry them in two teams of four each?
Unless you have an accurate, more or less, number, you cannot conclude Reno's guys shoulda/coulda ridden to Custer.
2. What was the obligation to risk the regiment to search out for Custer at risk to themselves and therefore the entire mission? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 15 2008 : 1:38:40 PM
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DC, The battle between you and Joe has been going for along time
and I feel that is something you two have to work out. And I have
no desire to check on anyone on this forum. When I brought up the
forum about you, I was unfair to you and disrepectful of which, I
had made an apology.
The people on this forum, you, Mike,Brent, and Joe and others I feel
are very intelligent, and knowlegdeable people on the LBH battle,
and Mike coming on board has been a great asset, I value his veiws
and opinions as I do others. We have to keep in mind that when we
resort to name calling and being critical of others, then people
get discourged, and leave the forum, which means valuable infor-
mation that may help us have a better understanding of the LBH will
be lost. The discussions have been great, and yes we will have a
disagreement thats only human, But lets be gentleman about it and
respect everybodies veiws and opinions. |
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Topic |
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Responsibility for Custer's defeat.
