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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 05 2008 : 12:45:46 PM
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Poll Question:
Many believe Custer entered this battle without proper preparation or planning. Many believe that he did. Here is your opportunity to voice your opinion as to what you believe. Everyone is invited,including guests, to offer their rational to substantiate their reasoning.
Did Custer act according to a military plan?
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 06 2008 : 11:42:25 AM
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Yes. IT was a "plan". But not a good one and one that was done w/o knowledge of the true # of the enemy, where he was located, the shape and size of his village, or any idea of the terrain.
I should add that the nature of that battle didn't allow for any detailed planning sessions--it was all sort of done on the fly. Custer probably had to "act" when he discovered the Village--to have waited and conducted detailed scouting, etc would certainly have meant the Indians would have spotted him and attacked (as they did Crook), or more likely just moved off. Custer would have then been left "holding the bag"--and been the subject of intense criticism for allowing the Indians to escape when he had them in his grasp. I can see those news headlines now "Has Custer lost his nerve?" or "Custer lets Indians escape" or Custer fails in mission to subdue Indians". That's would most likely what would have happened, I think.
So Custer made up his plan quickly and acted on it--with a disaster resulting. And what would have been a better plan? Lots of experts and lots of theories on that one!! |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 06 2008 : 7:39:12 PM
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| Brent, your response is, without a doubt, an excellent one. I need not respond because you have pointed out every factor that I would have. While it would be interesting to read a counter to your summation, I believe you to have hit the proverbial "nail" directly upon the head. Wonderful job. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 07 2008 : 12:39:29 PM
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Well-I don't think Custer was a complete fool, or an idiot. He had his personality flaws and too much ambition, and was excessively reckless. Which reckless-ness can come in handy at times for a Cavalry leader.
At LBH he was in a position where HE had located the Indians and was fairly certain they would flee-or at least not put up a savage fight against the entire 7th. So I think he was almost forced to attempt "something", which he certainly did. To have waited or done nothing would probably have meant the Village moving on--which then would have been labled as his fault..a golden opportunity squandered.
It's just how he went about it that was badly flawed. He moved quickly, rolled the dice and lost. And he clearly didn't get the best out of Reno or Benteen, neither of whom should have been proud of their actions (or, in one case, lack thereof) that day.
And Joe, I'm almost certain we'll get a "counter" to what I've suggested!! |
Edited by - Brent on July 07 2008 12:40:41 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2008 : 8:47:01 PM
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| Brent, the testimony of Benteen and Reno, in my mind, confirms your analysis to the bone. Why did both men tell such extraordinary lies at the inquiry? Benteen did what I think was reasonable for the most part. His honest misunderstanding of some of the critical elements was reasonable. His failure to report to Custer immediately after ascertaining that "the" valley was clear was inexcusable and, it was this solitary factor that forced him to lie and discredit Custer so thoroughly. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2008 : 06:55:40 AM
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| Agree. Custer sent several messages to him--as far as I know, he sent nothing to Custer. |
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chasber
Private
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Posted - July 11 2008 : 04:00:16 AM
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| Yes, the details were worked out on the fly but the attack was straight from the book strategy that every officer had to be aware of reguardless of whether Custer informed them or not. He had to attack the village quickly because all intelligence available to him indicated his location was known to the Indians. The Indians would not suffer his presence that close to their village and would move to attack him. Any sizable action(whether he won or lost),would take the 7th out of the campaign. That is what happened to Crook, he was unable to both defend his wounded and field an adequate offensive force. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2008 : 07:03:21 AM
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IT may have been by the book, but I tend to think the essential details were NOT worked out. Even Benteen realized breaking up the regiment was going to be a big mistake--I do give him credit for that.When you don't know anything about the terrain, the # of the enemy, where they are really at, the size and shape of the Village etc. an uncoordinated breaking up of the troops isn't the smartest thing to do.
There was no co-ordination whatsoever, an essential element of the sort of attack that Custer was trying. Which is why the whole thing ended in a disaster. I'm sure Reno probably realized that once Custer veered off, the promised "support" was not going to be direct or immediate. Unfortunately, it never came at all. And Benteen was effectively removed from where he was really needed. He never had a chance to participate in the attack.
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2008 : 8:45:40 PM
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Fellas, I believe that you have both hit upon the essence of the difficulty facing Custer, Cook, and any other military opponent of the Indian;expecting the unexpected! At the battle of the Wa****a, Custer attacked a village that was part of the terminus of several villages that strung along for approximately 7 miles. As Custer approached the general vicinity of the Indian village (he did not yet know the exact location) he desperately needed to know that he was not about to encounter a similar situation. Despite Benteen's blatant falsehoods, he understood perfectly well his mission and the duration thereof.
The mission was to locate the southern portion of the Big Horn Valley and ensure two things. The village was to Custer's front and not his left flank and, as soon as Benteen ascertained this information he was to return to Custer as quickly as possible. Instead, Benteen loitered until it was to late.
"As to my little scout to the left to find the Little Big Horn Valley, I can state definitely that I did find and see it...I saw not a living thing on it and hurried back and reported so to Benteen." Gibson had thus secured the intelligence that Custer was anxiously awaiting, negative in that no Indians were seen, but positive in that would allay Custer's concern about Indians escaping or attacking from that direction. it is incredible that Benteen never revealed that he had accomplished his mission. P262, Custer's Last Campaign.
Custer's fatal mistake (I feel) was getting his command trapped on ground unsuitable for cavalry tactics and, in which the warriors were able to sneak into close proximity of the troops through ravines heavily cover with thick foliage which concealed them until it was to late for the troopers. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on July 11 2008 8:49:36 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2008 : 07:22:39 AM
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I agree. And would only point out that at the Wa****a, at least the attack was timed and co-ordinated (even if it was based on faulty knowledge of the extent of the Village).
At LBH Custer properly determined that there was but that one Village, (even tho a few troopers with Gibson could have done that w/o Benteens entire command tagging along) But even after that he still had no idea HOW big it was, nor it's "shape". And no idea of the actual terrain. So when he rides off away from Reno looking for that perfect spot to strike, he takes way too long in finding it. Then realizes he needs Benteen. All of which leaves Reno holding the bag and that's when the disaster begins. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2008 : 2:40:34 PM
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I agree a great deal with what you fellows are saying. Brent knows that
for a long time I have been saying the same things. A commander on the
ground cannot form a plan while he is attacking an enemy. He has to form
that plan ahead of time, and to get all of his commanders on the same
page. When Custer committed Reno he should have positioned himself so he
could watch the battle, and to make adjustments, by using his whole command.
He should have sent for Benteen to move up, and he should have stayed and
waited to till he was up with the command, he should have supported Reno
and deployed his companies to block any attack from the Indians coming from
the MTC area. But he created his own disaster by moving down to MTC, then
crossing and moving northward, leaving an avenue of approach to the Indians.
Which in turn could and did block any support coming to his aid. Once on
Custer Hill he split his command again leaving Calhoun and Keogh to fight
off those Indians coming from MTC while he continued Northward, thus once
again allowing the Indians to get between those companies and the remaining
companies. So from every point he was blocked, no way of getting any help
and no way to fight his way out, it was a presription for disaster.
Commanders make plans for battle, and all they can do is hopes it works
in their favor, this time Custer's failed and the Indians did not. On this
day on the LBH he was out Generaled. Just my opinion |
Sgtmajor |
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chasber
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2008 : 7:13:00 PM
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| There is a lot of what should have been done prior to the attack but just how do you sneak up on Indians. Bradley didn't get much closer before his scouts refused to go any further. Hide out during the day, recon and position at night, attack at first light. Could have worked, but once Custer learned his position was known he had to attack as quickly as possible. Had Custer waited for the next day the Indians would have been 20 miles further downstream probably fighting one or two parts of Terry's seperated command. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2008 : 8:28:44 PM
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Chasber, A lot of what you say is true. However you have to consider
that he had committed Reno to an attack without haveing any knowledge
as to what was in front of him. And when Custer split from Reno he was
behind the bluff and did not see the village till he reach the place
on the bluffs where Reno had retreated to. If he had remained there
to see what had taken place with Reno, then he may have been able to
make plans accordingly. If he had done this he may have been able to
use his command in way that the Indians could only attack him from
two directions, and keeping the Indians off balance
Instead it worked that the Indians were able to attack his force from
a number of directions, thus cutting him off from any kind of support. |
Sgtmajor |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 06:51:54 AM
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No doubt Custer felt he had to act--and quickly. I guess it's just that how he acted that was the problem. My own feeling is that if I were a commander faced with an unknown # of Indians, in a Village of unknown size and shape, and in terrain that I was completely unfamiliar with, I don't think I would have broken the regiment into three mutually UNsupporting parts. Even if I thought the Indians were all going to run for it, which clearly almost everyone thought they would.
OH how valuauable a simple message from Crook would have been!!! |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 10:37:27 AM
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He broke the regiment into four units, not three, and the train had more fighting power than either Benteen's or Reno's. Mutually unsupporting, hot and exhausted.
The irony is the Indians were really unorganized and were surprised. Had they been the stuff of legend, the 7th would have been hit along Reno Creek from two sides of cover, and no civvies would have been lost. It's embarrassing to their descendents, so the 'trap' and the 'lured' fantasies are offered, and now the village needs to be much smaller for the desired victim role. This appeals to those who want it configured Custer could have won except for treason and the incompetence of others, but neither can escape their own incompetence that day. The 7th's was far worse, though.
Moving Robe Woman on this board passed away, and there is a memorial on the LBHA site here:
http://lbha.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=campfire&action=display&thread=3113&page=1
Mentioned in passing. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 11:21:05 AM
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Dark Cloud, nice jester, may God bless her. Now a question for you and Brent.
Do either of you believe, knowing the Indians were surprised, if Custer had
held his command in tact, and attack the villiage. Do you think the out come
may have worked in Custer's favor |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 12:10:19 PM
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DC: I say three units merely because the trains "firepower" seemed to be soley for protecting itself. So I didn't regard it as a functional seperate command.
As what would have happened if he'd kept the command together? I guess it depends on how he attacked. If the entire regiment had been charging at the outset instead of just Reno(and I'm not sure if there was "room" for that to happen) it would have been interesting. We prety much know even Reno's weak attack was a suprise, so a bolder and heavier attack might have gotten a lot farther into the Village. But then, who knows what the Indian reaction would be, or how fast true resistance would develop? Personally, I see another Rosebud "draw" with each side licking it's wounds, and probably more
Indian casualties than the 7th actually inflicted. I also see that a few of Custer's units may have been cut off a'la Elliot at the
Wa****a.
Truly sorry to hear about MovingRobe Woman--she was a true Custer "fan" and from all I can gather, a nice person who articulated her feelings well. |
Edited by - Brent on July 15 2008 12:12:18 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 3:26:38 PM
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I certainly think the 7th would have been in better shape kept together regardless of what they did. The valley ground is cavalry ground, and had the herd been scattered, the Sioux would have been in difficulty. Custer's guys ended on terrible ground for either defense or offense, and it's preposterous to me that'd go there willingly.
I still think Reno's attack was the best that could have been done under the circumstances. Getting into the center of the village with just over 100 men somewhat less than SeAL Team 6 in quality was suicide. He absorbed for about 30 minutes a ton of Sioux, and Custer watched and didn't act till later. IF there was a chance, Custer failed to test it by attacking at all, much less in time. I doubt he was waiting for Benteen. He knew how horses work in heat without water, like Benteen's group. They'd HAVE to water before coming forward, and they'd have to not run forward to arrive able to do anything else. I don't think he thought beyond a fight in and around the village that Benteen would join, having sheltered the train, and then they'd figure out something. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on July 15 2008 3:29:37 PM |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 4:27:53 PM
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Dark Cloud, I agree 100%, I do believe Reno did the best he could against
the odds he was facing, and he made his attack thinking he was going to
be supported, which we know never came. In my own opinion the only person
that should be held responsiable for Reno's failure is Custer himself.
As for Benteen he was given orders, that to me never made any sense, and
he was only carrying them out, I don't believe there is much he could have
done to help Reno, other then what he had done. Even the order sent to
Benteen was very vague, other then come quickly, it told him nothing. Lots
to think about?. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 15 2008 : 8:10:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I still think Reno's attack was the best that could have been done under the circumstances. Getting into the center of the village with just over 100 men somewhat less than SeAL Team 6 in quality was suicide.
I am terrible sorry to hear of Moving Robe Woman's demise, we shared many threads and Pm's together and I feel I have lost a friend.
May God bless her and her family.
Dark Cloud, I honestly do not believe that Custer intended Reno to pierce the center of such a large village with 140 men.
I believe that he, erroneously, believed that the Indians were in flight when he gave Reno the order to charge. When the Adjt. Cook advised Custer that the Indians were making a stand, he must have realized that Reno was in deep trouble.
He then used the military "feint" at the ford which worked perfectly. The warriors rushed from Reno's military front to confront troops "E' and "F" at the ford. As a result, Reno and comapny were spared to live another day. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 11 2008 : 09:31:30 AM
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My thought is that Custer did not have a plan rather a tactical approach which was broader than a specific plan would call for. Benteen's approach was for scattered villages, Reno was after fleeing Indians, Custer was recon in force, and the packtrain was in the dark just trying to keep up and get close.
I think an actual plan would be more specific. I don't see much difference in all opinions here which is unusual.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 25 2009 : 8:31:13 PM
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| Provably the primary plan in Custer's mind was to prevent the Indians from escaping. Convinced that they were doing so, his first thought was to prevent them from doing so. Ironic isn't it. The hunter is captured and devoured by the game. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2009 : 09:38:26 AM
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| A plan should also include what to do with them if they don't run. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 20 2009 : 4:48:33 PM
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One irony of this battle is our tendency to judge the actions of Custer by contemporaneous standards. Today the plan of attack would have been vastly different,of course. During the era of the battle there were no written Standard Operation of Procedures for battling the Indians. Experienced Indian fighters were limited,Custer being ordained as one of the better one's when in actuality his experiences were not extensive.
It was thought that the "savages" were not intelligent enough to be worthy of tactical foresight. It was a hunt them down then kill them attitude that prevailed during those times.
This was a misconception that did not account for the possibility that the Indians were capable of tactical fighting against the superior "Whites."
This false premise, unfavorable topography for Calvary action, and the failure of two-thirds of the regiment to "Come-On" (I believe)are the predominant reasons for the fatal outcome of the battle. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 20 2009 : 9:08:11 PM
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Since Reno hit the village side of the river and engaged bringing the Indians to battle what 3/4s of the regiment are left. Benteen was on a recon in force/blocking mission and Custer went north. Approximately 1/4 of the regiment was with the packtrain and only had to follow wherever. Of the attacking force Custer had 5/11 of the troops along with scouts and HQ. Reno had a little over 3/11 with the scouts, and Benteen had 3/11 of the troops.
Custer was under Terry's plan and took advantage of loopholes to not follow it. Once on his own, mistakes forced moving forward without proper recon. The only plan left was try to stop them from running away to the south and drive them toward Terry. There was no plan to have all 12 companies engaged at one time. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 07 2009 : 9:46:26 PM
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I don't agree. This does not make you wrong but, I just don't agree. Custer had nothing to gain by disobeying Terry's orders except a court-martial. Besides, the discretion that Terry afforded Custer was extraordinarily huge.
No commander plans a battle then "plan" to leave a major proportion out of the battle, that would be insanity. Custer's Civil War record was that of an outstanding cavalry officer and, the youngest person to achieve brigadier General in the civil War.
His experience as an Indian fighter was not extraordinary but, more extensive then most. Why then did he suddenly become a "madman and Idiot" at the battle of the Little Big Horn. He didn't!
the Army sold Custer's soul down the river to prevent public knowledge of the deplorable, drunken actions of Reno and a few other officers as well.
Anyone familiar with the Armed Forces understand that no mere mortal exceeds the reputation of the corps. |
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Custer's Plan
