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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - April 06 2009 : 8:52:14 PM
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You need to read Sgt Ryan the senior Sgt in the valley battle for an experienced troopers point of view. He told French we need to cut out of here before we are surrounded. What privates with no experience have to offer is very limited.Since they were surrounded you could charge in any direction to effect a retrograde. The intent was definitely to get out the timber before the rest of the Indians surrounded them.
Remember Crazy Horse is coming.
Again Joe you show you don't understand horses and a charge. You could not maintain anything close to a formation for one mile at a charge gait. That is a flat out run by the horses and as the cavalry manual points out after 50 yards the formation begins to fall apart.
So Joe you believe that Reno formed up outside the timber and then went into the charge gait. I believe they came out on the run and took the Indians by surprise. How many casualties do you claim were inflicted outside the timber just as they exited the timber? The Indians backed off until they saw it was a retrograde and then they pursued. It was this quickness that lead to survival of some. Once on the run and near the river the Indians surrounded them again. The problem is the revolvers and carbines would be empty and reloading the revolver was not very fast. As Sgt Ryan stated it was hand to hand fighting. The Indians had the greater numbers and were skilled horsemen freeing their hands to fight. The Indians had enough firearms to inflict the greatest number of casualties by gun shot.
Joe the reason for using a rear guard as was done at Weir was to slow advancing Indians from the rear. It doesn't work the same way when you are surrounded. All it does is divide your troops and make it easier for the Indians.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 06 2009 : 8:57:02 PM
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Something similar to Troop "M", about face, fire!
When have you seen this done on horseback at speed? Weren't the troops coming out of the timber in single file. If they did that command they would be shooting the trooper behind them? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 08 2009 : 07:55:48 AM
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| Oh I still think the privates and other EM's would have had a LOT to say about the whole thing-- |
Edited by - Brent on April 08 2009 07:58:02 AM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 08 2009 : 4:15:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
You need to read Sgt Ryan the senior Sgt in the valley battle for an experienced troopers point of view. He told French we need to cut out of here before we are surrounded. What privates with no experience have to offer is very limited.Since they were surrounded you could charge in any direction to effect a retrograde. The intent was definitely to get out the timber before the rest of the
Joe
I agree one hundred%. It was absolutely pertinent to get out of the timber as quickly as possible. I have read Ryan's account. What is also critical in a combat situation is how you extricate yourself from an indefensible position. I am not a military man with a great deal of knowledge on military tactics. I do know that Troop "G" was left behind with no knowledge of Reno's order's to leave, could he have not ordered a recall via trumpet before dashing off? Is it not feasible to hold individuals trained in military maneuvers accountable for using them. Reno undoubtedly lose his head. This factor does not translate in my attempting to hold him accountable for the entire affair. I do not and, have stated so repeatedly. I do hold him accountable for his alleged "Charge."
AZ
Remember Crazy Horse is coming.
Joe
True, you know this and I know this because we've read about it in books over a hundred years later. Reno was to occupied to know it at the time.
AZ
Again Joe you show you don't understand horses and a charge. You could not maintain anything close to a formation for one mile at a charge gait. That is a flat out run by the horses and as the cavalry manual points out after 50 yards the formation begins to fall apart.
Joe
You are absolutely correct there! I don't know piddly about horses, wish I did because I love them. What I do know is that they must have gone through as much terror as the soldiers. Isn't is possible that when all of them braying, sweating,and terrified creatures were suddenly log-jammed into much to small an area for passage(on the east bank)the impetus of this mad dash came to a screeching halt; suddenly and irrevocable!
Since the "charge" was now, temporarily, halted could not some defensive order been issued at that point? Granted Reno couldn't because he was one of the first across.
AZ
So Joe you believe that Reno formed up outside the timber and then went into the charge gait. I believe they came out on the run and took the Indians by surprise. How many casualties do you claim were inflicted outside the timber just as they exited the timber? The Indians backed off until they saw it was a retrograde and then they pursued. It was this quickness that lead to survival of some. Once on the run and near the river the Indians surrounded them again. The problem is the revolvers and carbines would be empty and reloading the revolver was not very fast. As Sgt Ryan stated it was hand to hand fighting. The Indians had the greater numbers and were skilled horsemen freeing their hands to fight. The Indians had enough firearms to inflict the greatest number of casualties by gun shot.
Joe
I have posted, repeatedly, that Reno caught the warriors by surprise. Hence, all the more reason he could have reined-up the lead horses before the "Charge" became what it did-a general stampede, everyman for himself, fiasco. I sincerely don't recall my ever saying Reno formed up outside the timber. I don't know why I would since I know better. If you could point out my posts saying such I will certainly apologize.
AZ
Joe the reason for using a rear guard as was done at Weir was to slow advancing Indians from the rear. It doesn't work the same way when you are surrounded. All it does is divide your troops and make it easier for the Indians.
Joe
AZ, I don't recall any sources that state Reno was surrounded. I have read that some warriors infiltrated a small clearing in the timber and discharged their weapons wherein Bloody Knife was killed.
P.S
I'm not certain but, almost sure the Troops did not exit in a single file. Another thing, when ever I refer to Reno's "charge" I try to always use brackets. That is my way of telling the reader that the word charge used to describe this maneuver is stretching the truth at best and a complete fabrication at worst. I hope this post makes sense, I haven't, been feeling well lately, regards Joe.AZ Ranger
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Edited by - joe wiggs on April 08 2009 5:20:21 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 09 2009 : 08:18:37 AM
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Joe the reason given for bending the skirmish line is that the Indians were flanking them and closing the circle.
Page 293 Ten Years with Custer:
"Finally, when the could not cut through us, the strung out in single file, lying on one side of their ponies from us and commenced to circle. They overlapped our skirmish line and the left and were closing in our rear to complete the circle."
Once the retrograde broke through the Indians and the Indians closed it became close quarter battle and you can not defend CQB with a defensive skirmish line. When they arrived at the river not only were the Indians around them they were among them.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 09 2009 : 08:44:05 AM
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I'm not certain but, almost sure the Troops did not exit in a single file. Another thing, when ever I refer to Reno's "charge" I try to always use brackets. That is my way of telling the reader that the word charge used to describe this maneuver is stretching the truth at best and a complete fabrication at worst. I hope this post makes sense, I haven't, been feeling well lately, regards Joe.
Since it is described as timber with heavy underbrush with only buffalo trails to move through it then I accept it when they say they had to move through it single file. Could be single file at multiple points but I believe it was not possible to come out in a proper formation.
If you come out at the run toward the Indians in a charge gait the command to go to that gait is charge. It was a charge until the Indians gave way and then continued as a retrograde until the top of the hill.
The military had only three gaits for the horse walk, trot, and gallop. The horses had four gaits which in western riding are walk, trot, lope(canter) and gallop.
military western
walk walk
trot trot
gallop lope(canter)
charge gallop
The charge command was suggested in the manual to be used at 50 yards or less when closing on the enemy. The manual states any further distance and the horses begin to separate and the formation falls apart.
The military gallop is the western lope and is not a flat out run it can be maintained on a line and is what they used when moving down the valley.
The horses were charging (faster than the military gallop) down the valley of that I am sure and Reno was in the lead. This initial charge was only part of the retrograde that ended on the hill.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on April 09 2009 08:47:46 AM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 09 2009 : 10:54:59 AM
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| I'm not sure "in the lead" is a good description. Let's say he was "in front"---the entire way, it appears. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 09 2009 : 10:02:34 PM
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In the front was the first to head into the Indians. It would also seem that most followed his lead.
What assurance other than a better fighting location did Reno have that the Indians would not pursue him?
Is there some fixed distance they would not be willing to travel from the village such as the Rosebud? Did Reno think his horse could out run all Indian horses? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on April 09 2009 10:09:28 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 09 2009 : 11:09:48 PM
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It's really true that ALL of Reno's actions for which he's often damned can be argued to have viable reason for them and good military precedent and that his actions can be spun quite differently than they often are. This doesn't prove anything, but he was a medalled officer and should be given a semblance of benefit of the doubt for that alone.
Those that don't would probably feel better if they did. But then, after alleged focus groups of neighborhood children and fictitious wives, they need something to hide behind. Health it is, today. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on April 09 2009 11:12:28 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 10 2009 : 06:36:28 AM
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DC: I'll agree with you when they (the LBH 'experts" )start holding up Reno's actions at LBH as models of military (cavalry) operations. Most don't seem to at the moment, nor did many of his contemporaries heap praise on how he conducted himself that day.
And of course Custer was a somewhat medalled officer himself. Should't he be given some benefit for that alone?? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 10 2009 : 10:37:56 AM
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Brent I have missed the posts that some have held Reno up as a model of cavalry operation. Could you direct me to them?
As far as "Most don't seem to at the moment, nor did many of his contemporaries heap praise on how he conducted himself that day" Depends on if you only take first hand accounts of soldiers actually there whether they thought he made the right choices.
I think it funny that anyone would expect praise to be the measure of how anyone conducted themselves in a defeat. Is there some examples of that such as we got our butt's kicked but you should have seen the grand formation we used to get out of there.
Of the four battalion that day how many offensively engaged the Indians on their side of the river? Which battalion after CQB conditions remained alive to fight another day?
We teach our officers two types of reloads with their SIG 40 cal. The first is a tactical reload when the magazine is not empty and you have time to preform the tactical reload. The second is a speed reload when the slide locks back and the gun is empty. Sometimes speed is more important to survival than a perfectly performed tactic. Both military and police instruct speed vs. tactical and when to use them.
Reno chose speed over tactical for his retrograde. It worked. I do not know what Custer chose but 5 companies of cavalry in a good defensive position should have been able to defend itself without the need of support.
The offensive mission failed, I believe, because Custer did not have all 12 companies engaged at the same time. For whatever reason the best opportunity was missed when the Indians focused on Reno (so he brought them to battle) and Custer either could not or elected not to attack that group from the rear. Benteen would have arrived shortly and the pack train a while later.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on April 10 2009 10:38:57 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 10 2009 : 12:35:54 PM
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I'm sorry you're so dependent upon the opinions of others, Brent.
First, there are few if any LBH experts, no matter what they claim, because we don't know what happened to Custer or, actually, what went on after he crossed MTC and not much more after he turned north on the east bank. Second, actions don't have to be of model quality to work or be appropriate to the need, and that rarely occurs in battle anyway.
Of the people who served under Reno that day, opinions were divided. Nobody else's opinion matters or is remotely relevant. This, by the way, isn't uncommon. And the pudding proof is that his command survived.
Custer is given every break in the book up to and including deluded fantasy level scenarios. The reasons for this are clearly apparent when you note none of America's Living Historians shows up as Benteen or Reno to those hallowed events on/near/about the field. The devotion is not to history, nor accuracy, but the adoration - sometimes clearly homoerotic - of Custer and excuse to play dress up and wear makeup.
Oh, and these tend to present themselves as 'experts' to the gullible. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 10 2009 : 1:13:33 PM
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AZ: Reno's initial charge was half-hearted at best-- with the men finally dismounting. On foot isn't the best way to make a cavalry charge. Of course I do know he was unsupported, his orders weren't clear, and he didn't have enough men etc So I have never faulted him for stopping and wanting help. He had no other choice.
As for the charge against the empty hill, once the bugle-less (and who's fault might that have been?) troopers made their sudden appearance and startled the Indians to break their "ring" (apparently not a solid ring by any stretch--initially they just parted and gave way), it became what you call a retrograde movement and what I call a head-long flight to saftey, with Reno well out in front. As far as I can determine, he never looked back or had any idea what was happening to his command until he actually got to the Hill.
DC: You know by now that I fully blame Custer for what happened at the LBH that day. I just can't heap any praise on Reno, or even Benteen (until he finally took over the defense of the Hill from the flummoxed Reno).
It was a Bad day at Black Rock. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 10 2009 : 3:09:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I'm sorry you're so dependent upon the opinions of others,
Brent.
Whose opinion should he depend upon Dark Cloud, yours? Of all the cacophonous delusive mis-information that you have saturated this forum with this,undoubtedly,is the epitome of your established crap.
Despite your constant crowing that no one can know what happened (has anyone on this forum ever stated otherwise)we can surmise some credible perspectives of what may have occurred. With few exceptions, of the obviously demented, no person on this forum has ever stated that that "KNEW" what happen to Custer and his command. Yet, D.C. has an overwhelming need to post the obvious over and over again.
This, however, does not prevent credible investigators of that era as well as contemporaneous archaeological findings, from enabling us to establish a credible scenario of what may have happened.
Another correction if you will. Of all the people who were involved in this battle opinion was diversified on "HOW" Reno left the timber while most agreed he "SHOULD" have departed.
In other words, given the next century to seek supportive evidence, I do not believe you will find a shred of information that will imply or infer that Reno's "charge" to the hill was something to be admired.
Last, but certainly not least, Reno survived for several reasons not of his own making or military ability:
A. The warriors left his front to meet the greater threat, Custer's approach;
B. Reno's command entrenched themselves due to Benteen's taking over which transformed them from easy targets to difficult ones The warriors were not so willing to pay the price of taking the hill;
C. Terry's approach with reinforcements.
There's your "proof in the Pudding" it had noting to do with Reno's efforts.
How can you not know these basic, elementary factors about this battle yet not hesitate to bellow your opines across cyber space. You never cease to amaze me. !
Your reference to "homo-erotic" is particularly interesting. What little I know of Re-actors are that they are honorable, caring, and dedicated men and women who seek to remember and embrace our past.
That you see them in such a demeaning perspective is not surprising. Sometimes I really feel sorry for you. But, then I get over it.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on April 10 2009 3:16:20 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 10 2009 : 4:35:42 PM
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Wiggs, you've lied, plagiarized, and still don't understand what you think you're talking about. Anyone who doubts need only reference your own postings on this board. Any word above two syllables is a grenade without a pin in your hands, as likely to mean the opposite of what you thought and explode in your face, or merely be misused in your attempts at wit.
Nobody claims Reno's retreat was great, me least of all. Only that it can be argued that all of Reno's actions can be spun to be the result of valid military pro-action, as all of Custer's supposed actions are so accorded.
Since your latest User ID on the LBHA board was no more successful than your others, better try to fabricate at least one successful, truthful personality. Your own clearly will not do. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 11 2009 : 12:10:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
AZ: Reno's initial charge was half-hearted at best-- with the men finally dismounting. On foot isn't the best way to make a cavalry charge. Of course I do know he was unsupported, his orders weren't clear, and he didn't have enough men etc So I have never faulted him for stopping and wanting help. He had no other choice.
As for the charge against the empty hill, once the bugle-less (and who's fault might that have been?) troopers made their sudden appearance and startled the Indians to break their "ring" (apparently not a solid ring by any stretch--initially they just parted and gave way), it became what you call a retrograde movement and what I call a head-long flight to saftey, with Reno well out in front. As far as I can determine, he never looked back or had any idea what was happening to his command until he actually got to the Hill.
DC: You know by now that I fully blame Custer for what happened at the LBH that day. I just can't heap any praise on Reno, or even Benteen (until he finally took over the defense of the Hill from the flummoxed Reno).
It was a Bad day at Black Rock.
Brent Reno was not ordered to charge anything. He was ordered to bring them to battle. No one can dispute they were brought to battle.
Reno charged the Indians at first and the hill was not empty rather it had Indians shooting from it. The doctor and his escort were killed by shots fired from above on the hill. If you read A Terrible Glory it explans why there was not bugle call.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on April 11 2009 12:15:12 AM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 11 2009 : 07:56:25 AM
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AZ: I know the problem with the original--let's call it a "movement"--against the Village. I don't believe Reno had any real idea of what was expected, nor did Custer. Neither expected any sort of major resistance. But whatever it was to have been, once the men stopped and dismounted they were in trouble.
And you are making it sound like Reno was charging an entrenched position when he left the Timber!! To wrest the hill from the Indians!! For all intents and purposes, once they made the initial breakout, the enemy was thereafter alongside and behind the command--there was nothing in front to charge. What I'm suggesting is that Reno was in a panic mode and made no effort to even see what was happening to his men.
And you'd think that troops used to hearing commands from a trumpet would have thought to have a trumpeter along for the ride that day. Thats Reno's fault--he was in command. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 11 2009 : 10:02:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Wiggs, you've lied, plagiarized, and still don't understand what you think you're talking about. Anyone who doubts need only reference your own postings on this board. Any word above two syllables is a grenade without a pin in your hands, as likely to mean the opposite of what you thought and explode in your face, or merely be misused in your attempts at wit.
Nobody claims Reno's retreat was great, me least of all. Only that it can be argued that all of Reno's actions can be spun to be the result of valid military pro-action, as all of Custer's supposed actions are so accorded.
Since your latest User ID on the LBHA board was no more successful than your others, better try to fabricate at least one successful, truthful personality. Your own clearly will not do.
Did I hit an "Homo-erotic" nerve? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 11 2009 : 11:21:20 AM
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"DOD Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms" defines retrograde movement as "any movement of a command to the rear, or away from the enemy. It may be forced by the enemy or may be made voluntarily. Such movements may be classified as withdrawal, retirement, or delaying action."
Maybe if we use the same definition of a retrograde it will help. I believe it was Reno's intent to withdraw to the rear because the Indians had surrounded his timber position. The battalion charged toward the circling Indians with Reno in the lead. The Indian accounts state the same thing. To my knowledge no one there disputes that they had to break through the Indians.
A charge is a short duration tactic. It can be deployed and was to open a whole in the Indians momentarily to effect the retrograde. There is no praise when a retrograde is performed due a a lack of reconnaissance.
As far as stopping there was a watercourse bed that crossed the valley bottom and would have not been horse friendly to cross. It was deep enough to conceal the Indians and would have not been trooper friendly to enter. Besides it would be better to draw the Indians to Reno so Custer could attack them from the rear. If anything Reno got there to quick or the alternative is that Custer was to slow or had no intent of supporting Reno.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 11 2009 : 8:52:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Another word for you to look up before you use it again.
But D.C., my friend, my compatriot, my potentate of all that occurred in this battle. This word came from you. I merely included a hyphen. My, my, my, I do believe that I have hit a raw nerve. Regardless, keep posting and enlightening your obedient servants. Also, may you have a wonderful and happy homo-generous holiday. If I have offended you in any way, please forgive me.
If you do, I promise not to give your address to all of the Re-actors you have needlessly insulted.
You know something D.C., I get so much pleasure in hearing from you! Honest Injuns! |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 12 2009 : 01:24:43 AM
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Yes, that's because you still don't know what it means, Wiggs. Another catastrophe for you. They're adding up.
If the generally grotesque crop of Heroic Living Historians and Our Nation's Ambulatory Action Figures can actually climb the two steps without ripping their pants and suffering a heart attack, searing neighborhood retinas, or wrinkling their costume, I'd be surprised. But, I'd be glad to laugh in their faces should they appear. Have before. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 12 2009 : 10:54:21 AM
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William O Taylor with Custer on the Little Bighorn which I read this morning confirms my belief on what happened. In the initial trip down the valley he describes hearing Reno give the command charge then later they dismounted.
While leaving the timber and moving up the valley he describes Indians coming from his rear and his left while he was in the timber. This is important since he was a horseholder. He describes how hard it was to exit the timber. He writes "a line of comrades(sound like a formation)each man in front of me had his right arm extended firing his revolver at a parallel line of yelling Indians and I st once followed suit.
Here also describes the lack of experience:
"most of whom were seeing their first battle, and many, of whom I was one, had never fired a shot from a horse's back.
"As before stated, my right stirrup was useless in consequence my seat was not very secure,(indicating not have a independent seat and using the stirrups for balance)nor my aim as accurate as it might have been, so I can not say that I did much execution, but I tried to, firing at an Indian directly opposite who I thought was paying special attention to myself."
"I reached for the pommel of my saddle with my right hand which still held my revolver. As I did this my revolver fell to the ground"
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 12 2009 : 11:14:13 AM
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| Oh well--rookies in battle for the first time. What else could we expect?? |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 12 2009 : 11:27:21 AM
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My dear Dark Cloud, you continuously claim that I do not know the meaning of the term you initiated. How could you possibly know that when I have not utilized the word except in re=posting it. Please read my post carefully (a novelty in itself if you are able to accomplish it)and, you'll ascertain that I have not attempted to define the term nor use it in a descriptive manner. I merely repeated it with a hyphen. Although I guess the reader could misunderstand and believe that I was inferring a tie between you and the term, which I was not. It's just that you seem to get so awfully upset about it.
Secondly, in the world in which I reside, a catastrophe usually encompasses the tragic lost of lives and/or other earth shattering cataclysms; to the exclusion of knowing the meaning of a specific term.
I am convinced that you are totally lacking in the intestinal fortitude necessary to laugh in anyone's face, be it man, woman , or child. You do your best laughing at others hiding behind a computer and taunting those who disagree with you.
P.S. your "stilted" English and really big words do not a philosopher make.
P.S.S. maybe it's that homo-erotic tinge to your writing that makes it sometimes incomprehensible. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on April 12 2009 11:44:15 AM |
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The validity of the Reno Court of Inquiry
