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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 09 2008 : 08:46:50 AM
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Brent
Who are the sources of the quotations you used? Are these actual quotes of the officer's and men that made them or an author? I know they exist with opinions ranging from hero to zero but it would be helpful to know the source of the quote and who made the statement.
Read Moylan's testimony at RCOI that is source with a name attached to it. Since Reno was the commander do you really believe that it was his responsibility to form the troops or the company commanders. Read where officers describe that their orderlies brought them their horses. Do orderlies normally make the decision for the officer or did they receive word through the chain of command.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 08:52:29 AM
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Brent As DC has asked can you describe a better way to retrograde the valley. By the way do you believe that a rear guard action to galloping cavalry against Indians surrounding 360 would have any effect except to make two smaller groups of troops?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 08:53:18 AM
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Anyway--back to Reno's charge to the rear. Look at it this way--it wasn't a charge against an enemy as much as it was a charge to safety. Had the Indians been ON Reno hill, his proper position would be at the front--that's where the enemy is and that's where he needs to be to direct things. But at Reno Hill, the enemy was on the sides and behind--NOT in front , or in a defined position. So when Reno takes the lead, he's among the very first to SAFTEY, with his troops strung out behind, taking a beating. And some not even aware that he'd left. That dosen't look good to the rank and file.
Were this sort of thing to happen to me in Vietnam (which it did NOT), this is how I should act. The platoon is almost surrounded, we're outnumbered. I know we must get out and get back to a position of saftey..a hill perhaps. I gather the NCO's, let them know what we are doing and then give a time when everyone starts. And I don't lead the charge to saftey--I stay behind where the enemy is and ensure as many as possible of my men get out and I lead whatever rearguard fight that can be managed. For me to have simply left and been the first to "get out" would be seen as cowardice by almost everyone in the platoon. I should be among the last to reach a position of saftey. And try not to leave anyone behind.
AZ: Your a trooper with Reno, lucky enough to hear the order to get out. You sort of form up and then behold Reno leading everyone in a race to saftey. You are on your own more or less. What do YOU think of your commander??? Is he really looking after his men?? Looking after you??? Or looking after himself???
Or put yourself in my platoon in Vietnam. You see me among the first to skedaddle , letting you and the men to make it on your own. What would you think of me, your leader, being the very first to reach saftey??
Not much, I'd hope.
AZ: All of those quotes are from the notes section in Donovan--pretty easy to find. And there are a couple more I left out. They are not Donovans own words. The one about Reno deserving to be shot is FROM Moylan, in an 1892 letter he wrote to Godfrey. |
Edited by - Brent on September 09 2008 09:01:57 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 09:33:30 AM
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Reno rode directly at Indians and they separated. Indians describe that action not just troopers. They state they thought he was charging them at first. Is this in dispute? I agree that the charge was to effect the retrograde and it worked. The Indians were on both sides of the river also. There was no safety in crossing the river or climbing the hill.
There is no time to do all things that would be nice to do if you have time. First the troopers are on line and at intervals in the timber. Does the CO walk the line to each trooper and say we are going to get out of here in a charge? There is no radio communication. The fact that so many got out in the same incident indicates some communication doesn't it?
You want to pick on style of leadership but the army all ready accepted those serving to meet minimum standards. Do you really think that riding at the front of the troops is a safe position. There were many different styles during the CW for the OIC also.
Describing what modern infantry would do as compared to horse riding cavalry doesn't seem to apply to me. My theory is that we have come so far from the use of live animals as transportation that we don't have the general knowledge of the tactics and pitfalls as they existed.
My position is that most did the best they were capable of in the battle. There was no overall outstanding performances but many individual ones. The battle played out different than expected with Indians willing to fight and personal interactions effecting individuals.
AZ Ranger
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 10:28:14 AM
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Brent when I look at the note section of Donovan I don't see quotes of the officers or troopers. Page 465 note 45 What I see is at least a second generation reference to what someone else said they heard. One of the quotes posted is from a reporter. The original source might be more useful than a cite to a another written source referencing another source but not by name. There is not one individual named in the whole of note 45 as making the comments. It follows the form of I talked to officers and they said blah, blah, blah not I talked to named officer and he said blah, blah, blah.
There is a big difference between what is acceptable as evidence in court proceedings and personal opinions. I would suspect that opinions change over time but facts should not. Would not surprise me that some would immediately blame Reno because of the death of Custer and then later knowing more about the facts change their opinion.
AZ Ranger
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 10:53:41 AM
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AZ,
Lord, finally some who's read Donovan (itself impressive and a chore) SEES. I've been fighting this on the LBHA board. All those notes! All the references! Quantity! Yet, when read and weighed, often devoid of substance beyond a collection of opinion garnered from different decades. I'm also appalled at what he DOESN'T reference at ALL. And it scares me how the enthused and tenderly experienced can make assumption of rigid scholarship and great research without knowing that, say, 37 quotes derived from one iffy source which is in itself an opinion is not a cargo ship of granite.
It's EXACTLY the sort of sleaze Ward Churchill did, albeit from a different side to different purposes.
Reno did not know what he would find atop the eastern hills. He knew Custer had vanished over there, he knew they were taking increasing fire from over there. I don't think it fair because of what we know now to think it didn't take some courage to be the first, or nearly so, to top the hill under fire.
Really, it's all in the spin. If you switch Reno and Custer and they did what the other did, everything from the timber to the top of Reno Hill could, and would, be spun to near heroism, thinking outside the box, far sighted anticipatory pro-active gung ho!, while poor Reno got confused - neither quite attacking, failing to support, dispatching and abandoning successive firing lines - and was driven further and further away, his body nearly the furthest thing from the village. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 11:33:22 AM
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DC: Didn't you once suggest Son of the Morning Star was a good book?? Talk about a novelist!!!
AZ: I'm trying to find quotes or statements from anyone (made then or years later) that suggest anyone thanked God for Reno and his splendid leadership that day. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 12:21:49 PM
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SOTMS is a great book, neither novel nor a scholarly history. It's a collection of the stories then extant in 1984 about the battle, well told. Connell quite often offers up the various stories and let's the reader choose. He emphasizes the disagreements, doesn't pretend to know what happened. That's honest, far more so than Donovan or most supposed Custer 'historians,' always trying to provide clues to a mystery that really is not.
Both books make errors, but since Connell has no dog in the fight or ax to grind, they don't affect that book's point and value, which has been to bring more people to consideration of the battle than any other, and acquaint many people with the realities of the unromantic 'West' and its Army. There is writing in the book, phrases, that stay forever in your mind.
I'll try here: "The West wasn't dull, it was stupendously dull, and when not dull was deadly." There's an awful lot of historic truth in that, phrased to remember. I'm sure that's not word for word, but close, and I haven't read it for years. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 5:38:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Reno rode directly at Indians and they separated. Indians describe that action not just troopers. They state they thought he was charging them at first. Is this in dispute? I agree that the charge was to effect the retrograde and it worked. The Indians were on both sides of the river also. There was no safety in crossing the river or climbing the hill.
There is no time to do all things that would be nice to do if you have time. First the troopers are on line and at intervals in the timber. Does the CO walk the line to each trooper and say we are going to get out of here in a charge? There is no radio communication. The fact that so many got out in the same incident indicates some communication doesn't it?
Joe Wiggs
AZ, there was plenty of time to deploy practical and, mandated military tactics before exiting the timber! You know very well that no CO has been asked to make individual notifications under combat. However, he could have and should have utilized a trumpeter to sound "recall" which would have been heard above the horrific din of combat. This simple step would have done much to ensure that all parties were aware of Reno's intentions.
AZ
You want to pick on style of leadership but the army all ready accepted those serving to meet minimum standards. Do you really think that riding at the front of the troops is a safe position. There were many different styles during the CW for the OIC also.
Joe Wiggs
What I am referring to is a minimum standard! Sounding recall is the least he could have done. A rear-guard defense probably was a little to much to expect from him. However, had Reno been lest interested in "leading" his "charge" to safety he may have actually thought of this reasonable tactic.
AZ
Describing what modern infantry would do as compared to horse riding cavalry doesn't seem to apply to me. My theory is that we have come so far from the use of live animals as transportation that we don't have the general knowledge of the tactics and pitfalls as they existed.
Joe Wiggs
I agree.
Az
My position is that most did the best they were capable of in the battle. There was no overall outstanding performances but many individual ones. The battle played out different than expected with Indians willing to fight and personal interactions effecting individuals.
Joe Wiggs
I could not agree with you more. I have stated repeatedly that there were no cowards, on either side, in this battle. These men did the best that they could under incredibly harsh circumstances. What I can not comprehend is the inability to accept a very realistic concept ( I am not referring to you): Reno's actions on the hill and in route to the hill were deplorable.
I am not saying that he lost the fight, that he was a bad man, that his actions were criminal, that there should be a special place in hell for him. I am saying that he, like most of us at one time or another in our lives, screwed up. Fortunately, for most of us, our actions did not get people killed. His actions, unfortunately, did!
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 6:28:44 PM
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Really Brent
C. Slaper M Troop- Medal of Honor Winner
“Had Reno not made that move out of the river bottom when he did –just in the nick of time- we could have all fared the fate of Custer and his men, without any assistance from anyone. Page 53 Troopers with Custer
Colonel Varnum
“I do not think we were able to cover the position which must be held to keep the Indians out of the timber. We had to occupy the as the ground lay, in order to hold it all. It does not seem to me that we had men enough to hold the entire circle of the river bottom.”
RCOI
LT Wallace
“Major Reno’s conduct was that could be expected of anyone. The troops could not be handled any better. *** I think Reno did the only thing possible under the circumstances. If we had remained in the timber, all would be killed.”
Capt. Myles Moylan
“If we had stayed 30 minutes longer in the timber unsupported, I doubt whether we have gotten out alive.”
Herendeen
“ If the Indians had charged the timber we could not have lasted long. We could have stood them off for perhaps 30 minutes.*** Major Reno stayed in the timber till all hope of support from Custer vanished. I think the reason we left was because if we had stayed much longer-say 20 minutes- we could not have gotten out at all.
Sgt F A Culbertson
“If the skirmish line had not been retired, or had been held there three minutes longer, I don’t think anyone would have gotten off the line. I don’t think Major could have held the timber but a very few minutes.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 09 2008 6:31:05 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 8:17:04 PM
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If I had the time or inclination I could post as many opinions that would contradict those of above. The equation of understanding is quite simple in this case. Military personnel who either performed poorly at the battle (Gibson,Moylan, Edgerly, Reno)etc. clung together abetted by those who wished to protect the honor of the regiment (Benteen, Wallace, Godfrey,etc).
If you wish to find a reasonable and rational perspective of the events read the statements of the civilian personnel (for the most part) who were not hampered by the need to protect the image of the Army. It is for this very reason that Reno's counselor opened the proceedings with an disgusting "class" discrimination posture that would, in effect, disregard all testimony other than the "officer Class." |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 09 2008 : 8:48:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
If I had the time or inclination I could post as many opinions that would contradict those of above. The equation of understanding is quite simple in this case. Military personnel who either performed poorly at the battle (Gibson,Moylan, Edgerly, Reno)etc. clung together abetted by those who wished to protect the honor of the regiment (Benteen, Wallace, Godfrey,etc).
If you wish to find a reasonable and rational perspective of the events read the statements of the civilian personnel (for the most part) who were not hampered by the need to protect the image of the Army. It is for this very reason that Reno's counselor opened the proceedings with an disgusting "class" discrimination posture that would, in effect, disregard all testimony other than the "officer Class."
Why do you always seem to not understand? Brent said he could not find any. Herendeen was a civilian scout.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Edited by - AZ Ranger on September 09 2008 8:51:52 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2008 : 07:10:08 AM
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AZ: Never suggested Reno should have stayed much longer in the timber (though several who were there suggested he could have). IT's the manner of leaving that causes me problems.
Reno must have paid Wallace for that statement!!
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 10 2008 : 10:17:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
AZ: Never suggested Reno should have stayed much longer in the timber (though several who were there suggested he could have). IT's the manner of leaving that causes me problems.
Reno must have paid Wallace for that statement!!
Read Donovan who is no Reno supporter. He explains why there was no bugle call. Page 239 Its so simple its hilarious.
Those statements should meet you criteria that you could not find, right?
These are the officers that were there with first hand observations.
Don't you get tired having to use "estimate", "pay offs", " I can't find one to support Reno", poor performance without stating a better way to do it, conspiracy to cover up, and using second hand sources without the name of the original statement maker?
I think we all have opinions and share them here. What we do is challenge the information used to form that opinion and modify our own if sufficient evidence is presented.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 19 2008 : 7:22:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
If I had the time or inclination I could post as many opinions that would contradict those of above. The equation of understanding is quite simple in this case. Military personnel who either performed poorly at the battle (Gibson,Moylan, Edgerly, Reno)etc. clung together abetted by those who wished to protect the honor of the regiment (Benteen, Wallace, Godfrey,etc).
If you wish to find a reasonable and rational perspective of the events read the statements of the civilian personnel (for the most part) who were not hampered by the need to protect the image of the Army. It is for this very reason that Reno's counselor opened the proceedings with an disgusting "class" discrimination posture that would, in effect, disregard all testimony other than the "officer Class."
Why do you always seem to not understand? Brent said he could not find any. Herendeen was a civilian scout.
Joe Wiggs
Because I'm an idiot?. What other logical rationale can explain my disagreeing with you?
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Edited by - joe wiggs on September 19 2008 7:30:49 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 19 2008 : 9:22:01 PM
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quote:
Joe Wiggs
Because I'm an idiot?. What other logical rationale can explain my disagreeing with you?
Explanation accepted.
Again you mislead. You were not disagreeing with me. You did not understand that my post was an answer to Brent's post below:
quote:
AZ: I'm trying to find quotes or statements from anyone (made then or years later) that suggest anyone thanked God for Reno and his splendid leadership that day.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 03 2009 : 07:24:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
quote:
Joe Wiggs
Because I'm an idiot?. What other logical rationale can explain my disagreeing with you?
Explanation accepted.
Again you mislead. You were not disagreeing with me. You did not understand that my post was an answer to Brent's post below:
quote:
AZ: I'm trying to find quotes or statements from anyone (made then or years later) that suggest anyone thanked God for Reno and his splendid leadership that day.
AZ Ranger
That was the funniest thing I have read in years!
Way to go AZ,
Billy |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - March 20 2009 : 9:27:03 PM
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Billy, it doesn't take much to please you, does it!? If that is the "funniest" thing you've read in years then AZ should seek employment as a comedy writer on the Leno show or, you should get out of the house more often. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on March 20 2009 9:32:10 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 21 2009 : 1:55:10 PM
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As I read the various accounts of Reno's charge (not the original, but the "charge" to the Hill) I get the slight impression that he never bothered even to look back until he got there. Had no real idea what was happening to the command. Was among the very first to arrive at the position of saftey.
Am I missing some factor to suggest that he did all he could to hold the command together and cared for their saftey and well being before his own? As a commander should? |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 21 2009 : 9:24:28 PM
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Brent,
It is obvious, even to the most casual observer, that Reno completely lost control of command in his haste to save himself. He didn't look back, he didn't utilize sanctioned military tactics that would have covered the "charge/retreat", nor or did he redeem himself with belated acts of "daring do" during his sojourn on Reno Hill.
Having made this statement and, in preparation for the "Hue and Cry" of those who will respond to my allegation with an indignant shout of "What else could he have done?" I reply, "Plenty!"
I do not suggest that this entire military fiasco was the solitary fault and responsibility of Reno alone. Lord knows that there were enough blunders to share all around. However, any attempt to justify Reno's conduct is simply beyond rational comprehension.
Under the dire circumstances he encountered, I suppose Reno performed to the best of his ability. Unlike some dashing cavaliers of courage that repeatedly scorn the ferocity of the "Angle of Death", Reno simply could not handle the cards he was dealt.
May God bless him.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on March 21 2009 9:28:25 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 03 2009 : 10:51:41 AM
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I think the better term for what Reno did was perform a retrograde. A charge gait for the horses was deployed so the charge command would be given. There were Indians in front of the battalion that gave way to Reno which was the intent of the charge. It worked but then they followed. After 100 yards or so at the charge gait there is no organization. Since you can not reload a Colt SAA revolver at the charge it would explain the lack of firing by the troopers latter in the retrograde. At high speeds the inexperienced riders were holding on since to fall was instant death. I don't believe it possible under any military commander to maintain the horses in formation for as long as they had to run at LBH.
You do not deploy a blocking defense when moving at the charge gait and surrounded by enemy. If you stopped the Indians would be on top of you before you could set up a skirmish line or any defensive tactic to slow the Indians. It was obvious that when the whole battalion slowed to cross the river they were swarmed by Indians.
Name any other battalion that day that engaged in an offensive operation against the Indians on their side of the river.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 04 2009 : 07:44:10 AM
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| Again--I only wish we had the idividual accounts of many of the enlisted rank and file to see what THEY thought of this whole affair. They would know if they were handled well or not and a little bird suggests to me that their answer would have been "NOT". |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 04 2009 : 12:52:16 PM
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Of course Brent you are correct, "NOT" would be representative of their responses. It amazes me when individuals use military tactical terms to describe Reno's "charge" which was void of any tactics (other than the get the hell out my way tactic.
The distinguished and authoritative Col. W.A. Graham "The Custer Myth" in a series of letters between he and Captain Carter refused to label Reno a "cowardly poltroon" as Carter desired. Graham goes on to systematically defend Reno's movements.
However, he did say the following:
I have no doubt that Reno was alarmed; that he was frightened and lost his head during the "retreat." Noticed that Graham used the word "retreat" rather than charge. I believe that a perusal of the findings of the vast majority of the students of this battle will agree that Reno had to get out. It was how he got out that drew criticism. Would it not be interesting to be able to perform a poll of "G" troop survivors who were left behind because standard bugle commands were not issued?
AZ's statement, "you do not deploy a blocking defence when moving at a charge gait" completely misses the point of protecting your "flank" before you enter the charge gait. A decimated flank becomes the front all to quickly. A charge may be 20 feet, 100 feet, 200 feet , a mile, etc. A charge does not continue until the mounts drop dead. An orderly military movement may be structured to give counter commands as well. Something similar to Troop "M", about face, fire! Soldier testimony reveals that as the head of the "charge" exited the timber surprised and startled Indians momentarily fell back. A volley of fire from the rear troop as they left the timber may have kept the Indians in their apprehensive state for a few precious moments more.
Can not anyone deny that the mass confusion of the harried, jumbled up, panic stricken soldiers of the east bank of the Big Horn River were in dire need of someone, anyone, taking command and directing rear-fire at the warriors. The "charge gait" was non-existent whilst horses and men stumbled into the river in their haste to get away.
Anyone who would defend Reno's methods, not his reasons, for leaving the timber is trapped in a temporal warp of the fatalistic outcome of the battle. Surrounded and hard pressed by the enemy, Reno did the only thing he could do, get out! I agree, get out but, do so as a military, West Point academy, graduate. To defend Reno's method of escape by alleging he could do nothing else is mis-leading and misses the mark. He could have done things differently. whether he would have been successful is altogether another story. Wouldn't it have been interesting if he had tried? |
Edited by - joe wiggs on April 04 2009 12:59:55 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 05 2009 : 1:58:18 PM
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Still think the longer word is more impressive, Wiggs? Do you know the difference between fatalistic and fatal? Apparently not. Also, there's no advantage to 'temporal' over 'time', which in any case makes no sense. It's just sounds without meaning to those who read English.
Remember Wiggs: you've lied, plagiarized, revealed you don't understand what you post half the time, and it's all still up with nary an apology, much less devotion to linear sense. You don't get to pretend you aren't guilty. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 05 2009 : 6:22:04 PM
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What I do remember is: "If you were a man I would resent these remarks." The quote is from yours truly. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on April 05 2009 6:23:00 PM |
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The validity of the Reno Court of Inquiry
