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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 18 2008 : 5:49:00 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Dark Cloud
That is Miles' opinion. He was stroking Custer's memory for his own elevation.
Joe Wiggs
I hate to point out your grievous errors D.C. but, you leave me no choice. General Nelson Miles was an exemplary officer and had no need to "stroke" anyone's memory to elevate himself. Please explain to the board how this process of stroking/elevation played out.
Dark Cloud
There is no evidence Benteen sulked. None. Rather, he'd have LOVED to have saved Custer, which would have had all the upsides and none of the downsides (like being shot himself and by his own men) for deserting their fellows.
Joe Wiggs
I agree emphatically with you. There is no evidence that Benteen sulked nor has anyone, to my knowledge, has inferred that he "sulked." What he did do was to choose to not enter the valley and rescue the "stragglers" left behind by Reno. Which leaves us with this thought, who ever said Benteen ever "sulked" besides you?
Dark Cloud
This is based upon the assumption that Weir was concerned with saving Custer from the morass on to explain his near mutiny. Weir had no reason to fear for Custer at that point, but wanted to be in on the kill for the write up. Confronted with reality later, he slunk back quick enough. Benteen lying down while horses watered was not a great photo op in retrospect, but there's no evidence he delayed beyond the needs of his horses and men. No water for sixteen hours and a harsh trail beyond that of Custer's. He arrived on the trot ready to charge or whatever was needed with the train - his responsibility and an ongoing Marx Bros. movie - under control and protection.
Joe Wiggs
I'm not going to generate a lot of effort attempting to dissect this mish-mash except to say the following.
A. If Weir committed "mutiny" when he led out did Benteen and Reno commit mutiny when they followed him?
B. What source do you have that the men and horses went without a drop of water for sixteen hours?
Dark Cloud
If an idiot officer instead of Benteen had raced to wherever Custer was, they'd have arrived strung out if at all, and the train would likely have been pillaged after Reno was clobbered and Custer surrounded, unable to go on the offensive with wounded and horseless any more than Reno was.
Joe Wiggs
According to your rationalization any officer who may have attempted a rescue is an "idiot." You may or may not be right, more importantly, your perspective is based on no evidence whatsoever. therefore, one must ask, why do you make such a statement with such conviction!?
Dark Cloud
If he had not stopped for Reno, that WOULD have been an offense.
Joe Wiggs
Benteen could have stopped for Reno, did stop for Reno, and should have stopped for Reno. The issue is that he did not have to stay there for over an hour while men where fighting for their lives.
Dark Cloud
Whatever Custer did, it was not logical nor consistent with either offense or defense, and this is why others have to be accused in order to deflect attention from the fact Custer did not attack across a reportedly thinly defended ford into the village, which he had tasked Reno with doing with less men an hour earlier.
Joe Wiggs
I did not realize that you were an authority on military tactics. Who did you study under, Upton? For one who races across thread after thread demanding quotes, evidence, and sworn testimony you can certainly come up with some real lulu's.
This effort is not intended to belittle you nor to be vindictive. You really need to follow your own, good advise and make comments based on rationality and research. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on June 18 2008 6:04:20 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2008 : 1:01:03 PM
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| My take is that Weir had enough with nothing even being done to TRY to get to Custer and he took it upon himself to do SOMETHING. Nothing remotely mutinous about it. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2008 : 5:59:47 PM
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Absolutely Brent!!! Weir reacted to a stimulus (firing) in a manner that was reasonable and acceptable to him. When he arrived at his destination, he was influenced by new stimuli such as viewing a mass of Indians through binoculars that, suddenly, came rushing and screaming towards the startled group. Weir and the others retreated, in haste, and returned to Reno Hill. However, they did respond to the firing! Although Weir's actions failed to save Custer's command, at least he tried something. The merits of his attempt should be judge by history, not us. To label any soldier an "idiot" for attempting to come to the aid of his or her comrades is simple a bizarre perspective that is beyond my comprehension.
Lastly, to call that action mutinous yet, make no comment, acknowledgment, or reference to the entire command that subsequently followed Weir during his "mutiny" mean exactly what?
Weir drank himself to death a few years after the battle. Perhaps he desired to drown the harsh memory of fleeing away (although an understandable move) leaving his comrades behind. Who knows. However, I salute his effort for at least he tried. |
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clw
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2008 : 11:54:47 AM
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| If it weren't for Weir prodding Benteen every chance he got on the way down Ash Creek, who knows when he would have shown up. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2008 : 8:33:55 PM
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I've always wondered if Benteen's actions were in response to his extreme jealousy of Custer's "celebrity" status and, his receiving an unfortunate mis-communication of what was actually occurring in the battle.
Let me explain the "jealousy" allegation. Custer, a younger man than Benteen, achieved greater military success and, was held in greater esteem due (I think)to Custer's' amazing ability to re-invent himself when necessary. After all, he transformed himself from a 23 year old "Boy General" to an " Indian fighter" as he entered his late 30's. He understood how to play the public pulse in establishing a notoriety much as today's celebrities establish their own 15 minutes of fame.
Also, both kanipe and Martini made oral statements that would lead the listener to conclude that Custer was hitting the village like a lightening bolt and killing everybody. This information leaves the white haired warrior, perhaps, feeling that he and his men have been purposely left out of the "fun and frolic". I know this sounds ridiculous when one knows the outcome of the battle. However, it makes sense when we realize that every member of this expedition was confident that they could run through the entire Sioux Nation with just the 7th. Cavalry.
Or, I could be all wrong for Benteen was certainly a cantankerous old soul who found disparaging things to say about everyone he knew. He was very much like another hard to deal with individual who occasionally posts here. 
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Edited by - joe wiggs on June 21 2008 8:42:39 PM |
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The missing officers--
