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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 30 2007 : 2:30:50 PM
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Just wondering how the group feels about Crook just after the Rosebud. He stopped in his tracks certainly (and then enjoyed some fine trout fishing), but did he have any sort of "obligation" to let others (i.e. Custer) know of what happened?? Could he have somehow gotten the word to Custer--was that really possible----or was it that he just didn't try?
And of course the next question--had Custer known, would it have made any difference?
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2007 : 7:53:44 PM
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Brent, your wondering is right on the money. Crook's defeat (he may have not seen it as such) would have spoken volumes about the willingness and tenacity of the warriors to fend off the "pony soldiers."
Unfortunately, Custer's Ego and confidence in his superior ability to fight Indians would have prompted him (I believe) to have attacked the village nevertheless.
However, I honestly believe one essential factor would have taken place under such a circumstance;with knowledge of Crooks confrontation with the Indians Custer would not have divided his forces.
Had he kept his command together, the outcome of this battle would have been exceedingly different. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 01 2007 8:03:42 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2007 : 05:27:43 AM
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Probably. May not have been a victory--but maybe another "draw".
Anyway--did Crook actually even think that the oter commands might want to know what happened to him? I know so little about the Rosebud--. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2007 : 1:41:48 PM
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| Brent, your question is so valid and brings to mind a big question as to why he did not report his battle. Like you, my knowledge on the Rosebud is limited but, I'm going to dig into it and attempt to discover an explanation for seems to have been a glaring error on his part. I'll get back to you when I come up with something. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 11 2007 : 12:36:58 AM
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Brent and Joseph, it has always been my viewpoint that Crook really screwed up by not notifying Custer that he wouldn't be joining them. Thing is, there are those who say that Crook never was, in fact, a third prong in the attack. I'd think whether he was actually the third prong or not, he should have made an effort, or more of an effort to let Custer know he'd been turned back. It seems like I've read somewhere that he did attempt to send a messenger, but can't remember where I read it. You'd think with 300 scouts with him he could have found someone who could have ridden the 35 miles or so north to find Custer.
Joseph, I'm posting a couple pictures here of the Rosebud. They might not be too helpful, but here they are:
This is taken from about the middle of the battlefield, which covered a huge area. It is taken from "Packers Rocks," which is about where Crook made his headquarters and sits way above the creek where he was having his morning coffee:
This is from Crook's command post looking north:
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2007 : 11:31:28 AM
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Once again--nice pictures.
I tend to agree--it was only 35 miles or so, not 1,000. Someone could have made at least an effort..
But you know what?? I'm wondering --if a message had been sent--what it would have said?? Given his posturing after the battle, could be Crook would have said something like --
"Large force of Indians tried to suprise us today, but we were ready for them. Sent them packing after a short fight--beat the living hell out of them--killed hundreds or more--they scurried away, obviously wanting no more of us!!! Lucky for them we were running a bit low on ammo"
Rather than cautioning Custer, it may have emboldened him even more--
Now I'm exagerrating of course--or am I??? |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2007 : 7:05:42 PM
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No Sir, I don't think you are exaggeration at all. While it is true that Crook was not defeated he did not loose either. he probably saw the action as a success on his behalf. However, in terms of objectives achieved, I must give this one to the warriors. Crook left the field. This is precisely what the warriors wanted.
Crook would not, I believe, send a message that would have indicated the seriousness of the situation. Perhaps, in his mind,he had completed his task by dispersing the Indians when in reality, they simple left after accomplishing their mission.
Frankboddn, I checked to be sure and found out that Crook was the "third" prong in a three prong attack.When the president authorized the War Department to "chastise" the warlike tribes. Gen. Sheridan drew up the three prong attack:
Gen.Crook would move north from Fort Fetterman in eastern Wyoming;
Col. J. Gibbon would move east from Montana;
Gen Terry (Custer) would move west from Dakota Territory.
Custer's subsequent division of troops was similar. Again, the military could not think outside of the paradigm that the Indians would"scatter" if not surrounded. Undoubtedly, Custer would have assumed, even if word of the battle reached him, that his "7th." could have done what no others could have.
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clw
Private
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Posted - June 12 2008 : 6:35:59 PM
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The two columns weren't acting in consort and Sheridan cautioned Terry not to rely on Crook....
Sheridan to Terry on May 15th...
"I will hurry Crook, but you must rely on the ability of your own column for your best success."
Custer wouldn't have been the recipiant of any message. If there had been any direct communication between the two columns it would have been between Crook and Terry who, on June 17, was on the Yellowstone near the mouth of the Tongue River, over 100 miles away. Crook only had a vague idea of where Terry was and between them was about one third of the entire Sioux Nation. It would have been a tricky trip and I doubt Crook even considered it. One of Crook's Crows might have gotten through, but there would have been no convincing one to try it. They were pretty disillutioned with Crook and were heading home. That left Crook with only three white scouts, which I doubt he wanted to risk loosing. The record shows that every time he tried moving without them he tended to go in circles. Crook, with his wounded and low on rations and ammunition, retreated to his wagon train on Goose Creek, arriving on June 19. On June 21th the train with the wounded left Goose Creek for Ft. Fetterman bearing the following dispatch from Crook to Sheridan dated June 19th regarding the Rosebud battle:
"[they] showed that they anticipated that they were strong enough to thoroughly defeat the command during the engagement...."
Presumably this was telegraphed to Sheridan when the train arrived at Fetterman. Far too late to do any good, but Crook's best effort under the circumstances, I think. And I'm no fan of Crook's. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 13 2008 : 2:23:01 PM
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| I guess he sort of did his best. Not losing. But the fishing is a bit much. I guess in his own mind he'd been mentally whipped and wanted no further part of the Indians. |
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clw
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - June 13 2008 : 6:16:10 PM
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| I think your right, Brent. He was going to sit there and fish until he got his reinforcements. Even then, he seems to have lost his edge. He had the best opportunity of anyone out that summer to defeat Crazy Horse at Slim Buttes, but he just let it go for some strange reason. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 15 2008 : 7:49:38 PM
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Fellas, you know what I think. I believe that the field commanders had never confronted, prior to the Rosebud, a group of warriors willing to take them on, Mano y Mano. When Crook subsequently realized he good fortune in escaping comparatively unscathed, the idea of fishing seamed like a good idea. You are right cLw, Terry was not to depend upon Crook. Believe it or not, each military thong was believed to be capable of success on their own.
By the way, welcome to the forum!!! |
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clw
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 09:48:06 AM
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 Ain't a 'fella', but thanks for the welcome. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 10:32:44 AM
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He did everything fine. He couldn't continue with the ammo loss. With that number of Indians in the field, he needed more soldiers and ammo. He had wounded. Info about the battle required that the whole thing be rethought at higher levels, since till that point Indians had never sought out and attacked such a large sized group.
He had zero clue that Custer ate it. Only after that became known did everyone try to cover their butts because of the spun image, rather than the facts. He went fishing and hunting and his guys ate well waiting for info. If he'd stapled his wrist to the forehead and spent his time in visible agony instead, when they had to hump around the nation for the rest of the summer, his guys - who nearly starved - might have wished they had done some eating when they could have.
A break. Especially because, despite Custer's fiasco, the camapaign worked as it was. The Sioux dissolved into small units, most back to the rez, some to Canada. They were never the same again. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 3:00:52 PM
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I don't think getting suprised on the field is doing fine. And a # of accounts I've read suggest his Indian allies pretty much saved the day for him. He didn't have much to show for all the ammo he spent.
I'd say he did fair--at best. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 3:28:24 PM
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True enough, the battle itself wasn't resume material for anyone. But the accusations based upon his retreat and down time I think unfair. His record is better than just about anyone's, and absent actual evidence of malice, ought to receive benefit of the doubt.
And, as said, the campaign - as awful as it was for Crook and Terry's guys -was worse for the Indians and actually accomplished the goal. Messy, but the Sioux were broken. Not bad. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 7:06:26 PM
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Brent, you don't need me to say this but, of course you are right. Crook's record not withstanding is totally irrelevant when discussing this particular battle. As you mentioned, the Indian allies received much to little credit for their invaluable assistance.
Your assessment of Crook's actions being "fair" is about as much as he deserves for this particular action. |
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clw
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 09:28:47 AM
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| dc, I can agree -- sorta. It's Slim Buttes where he really failed in my opinion. Granted his command at that point was a shadow of its former self, but he still had 2000 against Crazy Horse's 300, yet he withdrew yet again knowing it was Crazy Horse that had engaged him. That's hard for me to justify. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 09:41:34 AM
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| I'm not seeing those Slim Buttes' numbers supported, clw. In any case, his men were starving, and they repulsed CH, then went towards Deadwood not under fire. I don't see where he withdrew from a battle, and he captured the village. And it wasn't CH they were after, per se. They wanted the Sioux as miserable as possible, which they achieved that year. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 09:44:06 AM
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Thinking it over, I guess I should cut Crook a little slack at the Rosebud. Hardly anyone believed the Indians would attack such a large body of troops, so a portion of the "suprise" might be excused.
Recall reading after Fetterman where some were shocked that the Indians woould dare attack that # of troops--- |
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clw
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 10:12:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I'm not seeing those Slim Buttes' numbers supported, clw. In any case, his men were starving, and they repulsed CH, then went towards Deadwood not under fire. I don't see where he withdrew from a battle, and he captured the village. And it wasn't CH they were after, per se. They wanted the Sioux as miserable as possible, which they achieved that year.
Those are John Gray's numbers. Admittedly, I'm taking them on faith. You've got the book, read the chapter and get back to me. I'm always open minded. Gray also says that a rear guard action was required to withdraw the command.
No 'it wasn't Crazy Horse they were after, per se'. But I don't think it a stretch to wonder why Crook wouldn't have tried a little harder to defeat him, being the heart and soul of the 'cause' and all. Easy for me to say from the comfort of my armchair. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 11:19:35 AM
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| They were starving. That's why. As is, they nailed the village, drove off CH's warriors who rather half heartedly attacked (they didn't attack greater numbers, supposedly)in the afternoon. As usual, both sides stunk and few casualties. Bourke, who was there, suggests the fighting was mostly all done by the 130 odd men under Mills early on and CH's attacks weren't much. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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clw
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 12:37:07 PM
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Here's my take on the battle. I always listen to you carefully so tell me where I'm wrong (like I need to offer that option)... BTW, where is Bourke's account?
The small relief column Crook had sent on to Deadwood for food stumbled on a small village of 37 lodges under Iron Plume -- containing about 75 warriors and about 200 people. A dawn attack was planned. Dismounted troopers were to take up positions on each side of the sleeping village -- 50 men per side. Once this was complete a group of 25 was to charge thru the village and reform on the opposite side. The pack train and another 25 men were to close the circle. Good plan, but you know what they say.
While trying to get into position they spooked the pony herd. It charged through the village, nobody ever got into position, bedlam ensued and within half an hour, the troopers were entrenched on the village site surrounded by warriors on the bluffs who had an excellent field of fire. At this point, Mills decided it might be a good idea for somebody to go get Crook and the main column. At least while they waited for him they got to eat the village food which made a nice change from horsemeat. By about 2pm Crook's entire column of 2000 was up. Mop up began.
The captives told Crook that Crazy Horse was only about 20 miles away with several hundred lodges and that runners had been sent for him. What a prize this offered Crook! He had a huge force and should have been able to set a trap that would have yielded the most coveted of victories. He did nothing to prepare although granted they were probably busy eating. When Crazy Horse did arrive around 4pm, it took a concentrated effort for Crook's 2000 to hold off 2-300 warriors. Only darkness retired the Sioux.
The next morning the warriors drove in the pickets and it took 4 companies of infantry to hold off them off while the column formed up for march. Another heavy egagement ensued with the rear guard as the main column limped away with the wounded. The Sioux disengaged as Crook moved further out of the area. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 18 2008 : 08:42:32 AM
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On the Border with Crook, page 370 and after. What proportion was infantry and what cavalry? What condition were they in? You make it soung like CH gave huge battle, but it doesn't read like it. Few wounded on either side.
The cavalry horses were shot, the men shot from marching around for months, and they had American Horse and captives and had destroyed munitions and food for the Indians.
CH was always presented as just around the corner by captives, and what trap could be devised that CH would fall for? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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clw
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2008 : 12:24:54 PM
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quote:
You make it soung like CH gave huge battle, but it doesn't read like it. Few wounded on either side.
You know as well as I that NDN casualites are impossible to determine and Crook had 3 killed and 15 wounded according to the medical officer, Bennett Clemons. Depends on one's definition of 'few' I guess. From Clemmons report, At 4 pm a concerted attack was made on three sides of our camp (our entire force having meanwhile arrived) by the Indians who had been driven from the village in the morning reenforced by others from Crazy Horse's Band...
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The cavalry horses were shot, the men shot from marching around for months, and they had American Horse and captives and had destroyed munitions and food for the Indians.
It wasn't American Horse, it was Iron Plume. If you don't believe me, go argue about it with Kinsley Bray among other sources.
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CH was always presented as just around the corner by captives, and what trap could be devised that CH would fall for?
How should I, a mere civilian, know? Seems like with odds of 7-1 in his favor, he might have thought of something. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 28 2008 : 9:04:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
He did everything fine. He couldn't continue with the ammo loss. With that number of Indians in the field, he needed more soldiers and ammo. He had wounded. Info about the battle required that the whole thing be rethought at higher levels, since till that point Indians had never sought out and attacked such a large sized group.
He had zero clue that Custer ate it. Only after that became known did everyone try to cover their butts because of the spun image, rather than the facts. He went fishing and hunting and his guys ate well waiting for info. If he'd stapled his wrist to the forehead and spent his time in visible agony instead, when they had to hump around the nation for the rest of the summer, his guys - who nearly starved - might have wished they had done some eating when they could have.
A break. Especially because, despite Custer's fiasco, the camapaign worked as it was. The Sioux dissolved into small units, most back to the rez, some to Canada. They were never the same again.
This may have been the most idiotic post you have submitted thus far. I'm not sure though. Let me thank about it for awhile. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on June 28 2008 9:04:51 PM |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2008 : 11:47:12 PM
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| DC, while I agree Crook did the right thing retreating to Goose Creek, didn't he have an obligation to let Custer know the opposition he had met? He had a lot of Indian scouts with him, maybe mainly Washakie's bunch(??), but I've always falted him for not getting word to Custer. The Rosebud battlefield isn't that far south from present-day Busby where Custer's last camp was. Seems they could have found him. I think that had Custer known CH had led this number of warriors against a large number of soldiers, it might have made him rethink what he was going to do. |
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Crook, the Rosebud--and Custer
