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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - February 03 2008 : 10:01:45 AM
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If anyone didn't go with the flow it was Custer. Once the size of the opposing force was identified where did he make a move in the direction of the rest of the regiment. Instead we are to believe that packs are to be going to Custer when nobody knew where that was and he didn't remain in a location for them to make contact.
Can you imagine how comical to the Indians it would appear with Custer heading north from MTC the packtrain mules being whipped to try and catch Custer and the ammunition there for the taking to be used by the Indians.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - February 03 2008 : 5:46:51 PM
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| Hi AZ, Wasn't that why Custer left Keogh and three troops in plain sight on a ridge so that Benteen could spot them? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 03 2008 : 7:05:09 PM
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Hi Prolar I don't think that at all. Besides those that think the packs must only come to Custer and not stop somewhere else would have to have them bypass Keogh also. There are times when the commander needs to act like one instead of a battalion commander running all over the place.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - February 03 2008 : 11:07:37 PM
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| AZ, I don't disagree about what a commander should do, but I don't think he has to stay anchored to the spot he sent a message from.I am one of those who thinks a message from Benteen's commander to "come on" didn't mean stop along the way.However finding Keogh as a part of Custer's immediate command should have been sufficient.I don't mean he should not have stopped to help Reno, but shouldn't have stayed there. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 05 2008 : 07:18:54 AM
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I agree. Custer made many BIG mistakes to be sure, but from all that I can gather, some of his later actions seemed to be based on his expectation of Benteen actually coming in response to the order(s).
And I think even the Indians were a bit puzzled at finding Reno/Benteen just staying put while they (the Indiands) dealt with Custer. No doubt he probably had to stop in the face of Reno's meltdown, but after settling him down, he COULD have continued on.
Problem being tho as to how badly whipped (mentally) Reno's men were and how much use they would have been if they HAD attempted to get to Custer. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 10 2008 : 3:27:10 PM
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I do not think it would have been safe to take the packs to Keogh. I also do not think it would have been safe to assume Reno would take care of them before they could get organized. Does everyone believe that Benteen had so many experienced fighters that three companies more in the area of LSH would have resulted in anything other than more casualties and more ammunition and supplies for the Indians?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 11 2008 : 11:22:10 AM
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We sort of know NOW that they may not have helped much, but back then it was somewhat of an unknown. Had they been able to arrive (to Custer) more quickly, maybe Custer wouldn't have allowed his own command to be strung out as much. Remember ,he's ordered Benteen to HURRY back, he probably expects he would be back.
What bothers me most is that Benteen really didn't seem to even try to help. He arrived on the scene slowly--then stayed put.
Were I scoring the commanders that day it would be Custer "F", Reno "D-", Benteen "D+"--the plus only being for what he did at Reno Hill, and his original suggestion that the Regiment should not have been broken up in the first place.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2008 : 9:46:29 PM
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| McDougall A |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 27 2008 : 8:04:08 PM
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Welcome to the board heinkel12! It has been quite awhile since my last post and, I'm glad to be back. I agree with your dismissal of the assumption that "7Th. Cav." failed Bernteen didn't like Custer. Battles are not won nor lost due a sindle "cause." Therefore,one would be hard pressed to discover a single factor that, on its own merit,would bring about the defeat of Custer and his troops.
Rather,it was a myriad of circumstances such as incompetent U.S. Military/Governmental decisions regarding the sanctity of the "rights" of the Native American and, the inability of the Native American to fully comprehend the ominous meaning behind the American refrain, "From sea to shining sea", until it was to late to assimilate (to name a couple of factors).
Undoubtedly if Custer,Benteen, and Reno had made different decisions than they did the outcome would have turned out differently; in what way would be impossible to say.
Benteen was, without a doubt, personally courageous and decisive under stress as substantiated by his military record. However, a more cantankerous and obstinate individual would be difficult to find. I can not recall him saying anything nice about anybody
An interesting thought though. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2008 : 1:51:29 PM
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I discovered this very interesting article in " A Terrible Glory" Donovan (note section)."Benteen penned a revealing note concerning Elliot:'Had party been found after fight of Wa****a, they would simply have been found dead, as they were two weeks later.'
This statement, by Benteen, wrecks havoc with his earlier charge of abandonment against Custer. Benteen's mercurial temperament and distaste for Custer is reflected by numerous conflicting reports he issued after the battle.
During the Reno inquiry he admitted that he received an ORDER to Come on and bring packs. Realizing that he was at the point of admitting his disobedience from his commanding officer, he quickly interjected, "But at the same time, I wish to say before the order reached me that I believed that General Custer and his whole command were dead."
How then does one explain his testimony on the previous day when he stated that he believed Custer was still alive when he planted the guidon on the high peak? |
Edited by - joe wiggs on April 28 2008 1:55:37 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2008 : 8:20:47 PM
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Simple. Donovan deliberately distorts by adding "quickly interjected" which is his, not Benteen's nor in the transcript, in keeping with his distortion of testimony and his endnotes sometimes as much as three removes from the source, misleading the inexperienced or inept reader to assume surety where none exists.
At the time he planted the guidon, Benteen had no reason to think Custer was dead. At a later time, but before the RCOI, he had concluded Custer and his men had been dead for a while when he'd been at Weir Point. There's no conflict whatsoever.
Aren't there some quotation marks missing from your post, Wiggs? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - April 28 2008 : 9:14:14 PM
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Way is it that any author who has published a work in this field of study who happens to disagree with you is classified (by you) as a distorter, cad, incompetent, idiotic etc. etc, etc. This list, of course, would include any author who fails to portray Custer as a certified nut; the vast majority.
As I have always encouraged you to do, read a book, any book regarding this incident. Read the whole book completely and honestly and you will ascertain, as have so many others, that there is a vast chasm between Benteen's initial reports and what he testified to at the Reno Inquiry. The same holds true with other witnesses as well.
In all sincerity, since everyone else on this planet gets it wrong why don't you publish a tome of your findings. I'm sure to be one of the first to buy a copy.
P.S. No, I'm not going to spend my valuable time listing all of Benteen's discrepancies for you. Why don't you do it and present it to the forum?
P.P.S. After a long awaited return to this forum(due to health reasons) I refuse to engage you in further dialogue as it would serve no useful purpose. Your agonizing history of character assignations and incessant negative allegations that are absolutely merit-less have grown exceedingly boorish, to say the least.
The difference between the other members of this board and you is that we are here to learn and share information with others. Your agenda is obvious to all. To continue a dialogue with you is completely counter productive and useless. Farewell and may you prosper. I wish you the best.
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Edited by - joe wiggs on April 28 2008 9:57:39 PM |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 01 2008 : 3:29:35 PM
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Posted - July 17 2007 : 07:37:15 AM
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I would think it is the norm to be denied such leave. I also think a father would be obligated to put in for leave knowing it would be denied. Life was hard then and someone was always sick or dying. If nothing was going on maybe such leave would be granted.
Maybe he should have done like Custer when he was worried about Libbie and just left on his own.
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 08 2008 : 09:57:12 AM
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While what you say may certainly be true, I can not help but feel that denial to attend a funeral of a loved one is harsh indeed Undoubtedly, there are times and circumstances when such things occur but, I thank God that I have never been a recipient of such a ruling. Pity the man or woman who has.
I would not have blamed him had he left on his own! |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 09 2008 : 8:21:46 PM
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An additional tidbit of information that may shed a bit more light upon Benteen's animosity towards Custer was his alleged request from the scout Ben Clark. Soon after the Battle of the Wa****a, Benteen asked Clark to make a statement that Custer had "Knowingly let Elliot go to his doom without trying to save him."
Clark later reported, "I refused to have anything to do with the matter."
Barnett, Touched by Fire,371. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on May 09 2008 8:27:01 PM |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2008 : 7:15:08 PM
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My rationale for harboring upon Benteen's apparent animosity for Custer is not based upon personal vindictiveness. I hold no grudge against Benteen or any other participant of this battle. To do so would be monumentally egotistical and valueless as far as research is concerned. However, I can not but feel that it is very important to discern why some of the witnesses testified at the Reno Inquiry as they did, particularly Benteen and Wallace. Both men performed their duties reasonably at a critical time while others, unfortunately, may not have fared as well.
Benteen's testimony,particularly, was diametrically opposed to his earlier comments, letters to his wife, and official report. Wallace, on the other hand, did not flagrantly lie but, managed to subtlety alter known facts in such a manner as to change some of Custer's actions from credible to not so credible.
Establishing the truth that was disguised and covered by fabrications, mis-information, and omission of fact will go far in establishing what may have happened. While it is impossible to know the entire truth, much more information may be obtained then we currently possess. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2008 : 7:17:45 PM
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My rationale for harboring upon Benteen's apparent animosity for Custer is not based upon personal vindictiveness. I hold no grudge against Benteen or any other participant of this battle. To do so would be monumentally egotistical and valueless as far as research is concerned. However, I can not but feel that it is very important to discern why some of the witnesses testified at the Reno Inquiry as they did, particularly Benteen and Wallace. Both men performed their duties reasonably at a critical time while others, unfortunately, may not have fared as well.
Benteen's testimony,particularly, was diametrically opposed to his earlier comments, letters to his wife, and official report. Wallace, on the other hand, did not flagrantly lie but, managed to subtlety alter known facts in such a manner as to change some of Custer's actions from credible to not so credible.
Establishing the truth that was disguised and covered by fabrications, mis-information, and omission of fact will go far in establishing what may have happened. While it is impossible to know the entire truth, much more information may be obtained then we currently possess. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 30 2009 : 11:13:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Simple. Donovan deliberately distorts by adding "quickly interjected" which is his, not Benteen's nor in the transcript, in keeping with his distortion of testimony and his endnotes sometimes as much as three removes from the source, misleading the inexperienced or inept reader to assume surety where none exists.
At the time he planted the guidon, Benteen had no reason to think Custer was dead. At a later time, but before the RCOI, he had concluded Custer and his men had been dead for a while when he'd been at Weir Point. There's no conflict whatsoever.
Aren't there some quotation marks missing from your post, Wiggs?
Once again your facts are incredible incorrect yet, posted with such aplomb as if you actually knew what you were talking about.
On Saturday, February 1st, 10:00 AM, Benteen sworn under oath that he placed his men upon a ridge and planted a guidon to attract the attention of Custer's command. One can only assume that Benteen was not trying to contact spirits but, the living.
Recorder: "State what efforts, if any, that command made to inform Gen. Custer or his command of your position..."
Benteen: "The troops were by file on a line of river bluffs, and as I have stated another company was placed on right angles on another ridge. I planted a guidon at the highest point that looked over that country."
Now we know this event occurred some time in the area of 5 PM., after the pack train arrived on Reno Hill, Weir took off on his own, and the rest of the command straggled after him.
At 2PM. the Court adjourned and re-convened at 10AM, Monday, February the 3rd.
Recorder: Did you not receive such notification from General Custer at the hands of Trumpeter Martin?
Benteen: "I received an ORDER to 'Come on - be quick, big village - bring packs, Bring packs" We had then found - I wish to say, before that ORDER reached me, that I believe that General Custer and his whole command were dead."
We know that Benteen received that ORDER from Sgt. Kanipe in the neighborhood of 3PM.
In summation, Benteen swears under oath that he was attempting to attract the attention of Custer's command at approximately 5 pm. even though he knew they were all dead at three PM.
Did Benteen, who impressed the ladies who attended the hearing with his cool and calm testimony, suddenly become nonplussed and erred? I guess anything is possible.
One last point, did you notice how Benteen referred to that notification as an ORDER? Isn't it somewhat ironic that Benteen himself refers to the notification as an ORDER, an idea you have vehemently and assiduously refuted for lo these many years?
PS. "quickly interjects" does not distort the meaning of that passage whatever. Whether quickly interjects, slowly interjects, interjects, paused, etc., is included the meaning is the same. Your allegation of distortion is distorting. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on August 30 2009 11:16:48 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 01 2009 : 8:38:56 PM
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Kanipe was sent to the pack train.
I don't why you have trouble with Benteen thinking at the time that Custer was alive and then after visiting th battlefield and time to reflect he believes Custer was actually dead when he put up the flag
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 09 2009 : 8:45:45 PM
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| Actually, Benteen possessed aversion against most of the officers of the 7th., to include Custer. Those in doubt have only to read col. Graham's "Custer's Myth" to read a shocking list of his damnation of just about everyone involved in the battle.. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2011 : 7:37:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
If anyone didn't go with the flow it was Custer. Once the size of the opposing force was identified where did he make a move in the direction of the rest of the regiment.
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I'm going to make an assumption that you meant "why" instead of the high lighted "where" did he make a move...
Custer's mission was not predicated on the "size" of the military target. He was not sent to negotiate surrender. His ordered objective was surprisingly simple; to force the recalcitrant Indians to assigned reservations. Apparently Custer assumed that the other segments of his command would, as ordered,attack as he did at the appropriate time. He could not have, under any circumstances, for seen otherwise. He did do what military protocol required; sending a "courier" with specific orders to Benteen.
Instead we are to believe that packs are to be going to Custer when nobody knew where that was and he didn't remain in a location for them to make contact.
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In the terrain that the soldiers transversed, hoof prints of hundreds of horses of mounted soldiers were followed like "neon" signs from one point to another. In fact, although Benteen failed to inquire from the courier as to the whereabouts of Custer, he located the exact point of separation of the two commands (Reno and Custer) simply by following the trail of hoof prints and horse manure. Under these circumstances even you could have located the trail
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Can you imagine how comical to the Indians it would appear with Custer heading north from MTC the packtrain mules being whipped to try and catch Custer and the ammunition there for the taking to be used by the Indians.
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Benteen himself proclaimed that he would not respond to the pack train because he realized that the Indians could not get to them without coming through him. it was absolutely vital to send the ammunition forth, not the entire pack train. I don't think the Indians, nor anyone else for that matter, found this situation "comical" other than yourself
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AZ Ranger
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2011 : 08:10:47 AM
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| Again you are putting quotes within my post that is also quoted. Its only ignorance after the first time it pointed out to you. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2011 : 12:30:33 PM
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| I agree, after the fisr time of being told I've shown my ignorance. Now, could you please answer my reply? |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 02 2011 : 8:44:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I don't think anyone, ever, thought Benteen was "needful" at any time. Until the LBH, nobody thought that about Reno, either. The only reason these accusations are made is to excuse Custer.
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Hmmmm, Benteen was part of an attack force but you do not think he was "needful".
Bouncy phrases like "go with the flow" don't really support the accusations, because Reno DID go with the flow, as did Benteen. The "flow" was not going the 7th's way, and a glance at the village size rather confirmed it. It was Custer who did not go with the flow. Whether intentionally or not, he did not react appropriately to the reality on the ground.
Anyone who truly believes that Reno "DID" go with the flow, any flow other than his own desperate need to escape is potentially an Alien!
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 02 2011 : 8:49:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Again you are putting quotes within my post that is also quoted. Its only ignorance after the first time it pointed out to you.
How dare I use my inalienable rights as a human being to dispute how you feel! I should be drawn and quatered. Can you ever forgive me your Majesty? I do not deserve to live! |
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Did Benteen harbor an aversion against Custer?
