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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 16 2007 : 4:49:05 PM
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Poll Question:
Benteen, obviously, did not hold Custer in great esteem and, his testimony at the Reno Inquiry regarding the General's actions were,to be polite,inconsistent. What below factors do you feel best explicate his extensive dislike for Custer?
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2007 : 9:25:08 PM
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I can not recall the source of my perspective but, I do recall reading that while under the command of General Custer, Benteen requested leave to attend the funeral of his daughter. This request was denied by Custer. If this allegation is true, one need not search any further to comprehend Benteen's perceive animosity for Custer. i am, however, unable to confirm this contention at this time. Can anyone help?
I am convinced that Benteen believed that Custer deserted Major Elliot, and his men, during the Battle of the Wa****a. This belief, certainly, would result in a grave animosity to wards Custer. In fact, both situations would have done the trick. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2007 : 8:32:42 PM
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His testimony wasn't inconsistent, and you'd be hard put to provide an example. I'd glad your devoted scholarship concluded "Benteen believed that Custer deserted Major Elliot" because, you know, Benteen said so and, also, Custer had. You mean "either situation", not both.
I think you confuse Reno wishing to attend the funeral of his wife, denied by those other than Custer.
Affecting the writing styles of others doesn't work for you. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2007 : 7:11:08 PM
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Somethings never change, the sun rises, the sun sets, the moon rises and the moon sets. An insignificant potion of humanity will continuously insist upon telling others what they do and do not think and, what they mean and do not mean.
Secondly, you reported "His testimony wasn't inconsistent." Who is this "his" you are referring to? Custer, Reno, or Benteen.
Lastly, as stated, I am unable to recall the source of the allegation regarding Benton's daughter but, I do recall the information I have repeated.
P.S. That last line is so cryptic and void of any meaning that I will not address it.
P.S.S. I,ve missed you! |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 11 2007 : 02:19:06 AM
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Joe--
Benteen didn't like Custer from the start. At their first meeting, the kid bored him with story after story of Eastern theatre glory. Compare those tall tales to the hard-won, hard-scrabble war here in Missouri and Arkansas, and you can understand the resentment on Benteen's behalf.
MVRW ... |
movingrobe |
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Karlkoz
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 12 2007 : 08:30:38 AM
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Benteen's infant daughter Fannie Gibson Benteen was ill while he was out on the Yellowstone Expedition in 1873. He requested a leave to return to Ft. Rice but it was denied by Custer.
I found this in "Camp Talk" by John M. Carroll. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2007 : 07:37:15 AM
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| I would think it is the norm to be denied such leave. I also think a father would be obligated to put in for leave knowing it would be denied. Life was hard then and someone was always sick or dying. If nothing was going on maybe such leave would be granted. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2007 : 5:34:54 PM
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Hi Karlkoz, welcome to the site. Thank you so much for your confirmation of what I believed to be a reality. aZRanger may be correct when he states that such a denial was the "norm", however, to strongly resent (dare I say Hate) the withholder of such a request is certainly normal also.
Once again, welcome and thank you for your input. Looking forward to hearing from you again. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 17 2007 5:37:17 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2007 : 5:42:20 PM
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MVRW,
Graham refers to an initial meeting between Custer and Benteen wherein Custer may have slighted an ex-commander of Benteen whom he held in great esteem. Perhaps there is a little resentment in all of us who, one day, find ourselves subordinate and answering to an individual quite younger in age. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 29 2007 : 10:39:05 AM
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Of course, benteen wasn't the ONLY officer who didn't like--or even respect-- Custer. Just read Barnitz!!
And that disdlike and lack of respect from other officers brought trouble later on, as we all know. There seemed to be some lack of "harmony" among the 7th's officers |
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Captain Outwater
Recruit
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2007 : 2:32:54 PM
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| The dislike seems to have been mutual. Custer sent Benteen out across the roughest terrain around to 'prevent' the Indians escaping, while Reno and Custer attacked...without orders on how far to go, in an area where there were no Indians. Benteen thought it a fools errand and after a few miles turned back. |
Your humble servant,
Captain John Outwater |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 01 2007 : 8:22:33 PM
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Captain, I do not disagree with your assumption. However, I feel that Custer's intent to round up all of the recalcitrant Indians as he attempted to do was based upon a false assumption that the Indians would flee in all directions upon the approach of the U.S. Military.
By deploying Reno to the left, himself to the right and, subsequently, Benteen to the center, Custer believed that the Indians were thus deprived of any hope of escape. The irony of this whole situation is that the Warriors chose not to escape. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2007 : 2:49:25 PM
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He decided to cast a rather large net, given the terrain (which he didn't know) the true number of warrior/combatants, not really knowing where exactly the village was, nor it's true configuration. Finding out all of that in the midst of a three-prong offensive proved costly.
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - August 04 2007 : 11:56:22 PM
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| Brent, I agree with you and Joseph that Custer's biggest mistake was underestimating the Indians willinginess to fight.However I can't fault him too much with proceeding as he did with what he knew. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 05 2007 : 05:25:09 AM
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I don't fault him at all for proceding with what he knew (Or thought he knew). He almost had to do somthing given the situation, the timing, etc. I can fault him ,however, for proceeding "as he did".
Scouts (or even a small patrol)could have easily and quickly determined there were no Indians to run, none to block--- instead, he sent Benteen. Benteen would have been much better used elsewhere.
In fact, didn't Benteen actually have a small patrol out in front of his own troop?? |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 09 2007 : 8:45:45 PM
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Yes Brent, he did. Some scholars believed that Custer sent Benteen to the "left" to prevent a recurrence of the Wa****a in which Custer attacked a small portion of a village that strung along for miles. In other words, supply a force of men to counter a potential warrior counter-charge or attempt to escape.
My personal belief is that Custer, God bless him, was so certain that the Indians would flee that he attempted to trap them in a vise. Reno with a center thrust, Benteen to the left to cut off potential escapees and Custer to the right, to prevent escapees from that direction.
Imagine his surprise when the warriors held their ground and refused to flee.
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Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 09 2007 8:48:31 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 10 2007 : 06:10:09 AM
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He bit off more than he could chew, as the saying goes---.
I still suspect that neither Reno nor Benteen knew exactly what the general was thinking, or what was expected of them... |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 12 2007 : 7:19:31 PM
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| You know Brent, for the longest time I was convinced that Reno and Benteen knew exactly what Custer expected of them. i was convinced of this. Now, I just don't know. Perhaps the answer is somewhere in the middle. |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2007 : 06:04:05 AM
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I think Reno was probably a bit stunned right off the bat when--after promising full supprt--Custer headed off in another direction. Now I'm sure Reno must have realized very quickly what Custer was up to, but it just seems to me to suggest just enough "uncoordination" to throw an early monkey wrench into a three-prong assault. And I'm not sure Reno ever knew exactly what Custer told Benteen, or how long Benteen would be gone, or where Benteen would go once he came back (if indeed he COULD come back).
I know the fast developing situation didn't allow for a full scale, time consuming staff briefing--and I know that subordinates (like Reno and Benteen) were expected to perform like the experienced soldiers they were. But the whole thing was sort of done "on the fly" and doing things TOO fast often leads to trouble... |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2007 : 10:03:29 AM
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Just to add when commands are out of sight (and immediate support) of each other and when the only communication is courrier, it takes a certain kind of "independant" officer to go with the flow, sense how things develop, and act or react. I have the feeling that both Reno and Benteen were a bit more "needful" by way of direction and orders.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2007 : 10:42:34 AM
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I don't think anyone, ever, thought Benteen was "needful" at any time. Until the LBH, nobody thought that about Reno, either. The only reason these accusations are made is to excuse Custer.
Bouncy phrases like "go with the flow" don't really support the accusations, because Reno DID go with the flow, as did Benteen. The "flow" was not going the 7th's way, and a glance at the village size rather confirmed it. It was Custer who did not go with the flow. Whether intentionally or not, he did not react appropriately to the reality on the ground. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2007 : 2:28:45 PM
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It's a bouncy phrase all right--but we BOTH know what I am talking about. It's about reacting to a situation that CHANGES--quickly becomes something other than what you expect. I don't think either Reno or Benteen were that type of officer. Both-- I think-- were "ordinary" cavalry officers in every respect.
I seem to recall reading --but I can't remember where I read it-that Custer made an attempt to have other "absent" officers of the 7th assigned (or reassigned) to the command before the battle, but this request was denied?? Would any of those requested officers have outranked/replaced Benteen or Reno??
And I've always felt Custer was the prime guy at fault for splitting the command w/o really knowing the terrain, or the true size and configuration of the village. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2007 : 7:33:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Just to add when commands are out of sight (and immediate support) of each other and when the only communication is courrier, it takes a certain kind of "independant" officer to go with the flow, sense how things develop, and act or react. I have the feeling that both Reno and Benteen were a bit more "needful" by way of direction and orders.
You Sir have hit the head of the proverbial "nail" directly on the head. It is very astute of you to realize that the essence of "Leadership" exceeds the dominion of mere training and, most importantly, encompasses a unique ability to think while under duress.
Reno had no less of this ability than most officers but, was somewhat lacking when compared to the martial capabilities Custer and Benteen. Your term "go with the flow" perfectly illustrates the capacity to adjust and re-adjust to the fluid, ever changing, aspects of battle.
Perhaps Custer truly believed that Reno and Benteen would best serve his aspirations by "herding" the Indians in his direction where he would then make short work of them.
Knowing the fatal outcome of the battle, this thought may appear ridiculous to the modern mind. However, in 1876 one thought regarding Indian warfare exceeded all others, "you got to catch them before you can defeat them." |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 13 2007 7:38:34 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 13 2007 : 8:07:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I don't think anyone, ever, thought Benteen was "needful" at any time. Until the LBH, nobody thought that about Reno, either. The only reason these accusations are made is to excuse Custer.
Bouncy phrases like "go with the flow" don't really support the accusations, because Reno DID go with the flow, as did Benteen. The "flow" was not going the 7th's way, and a glance at the village size rather confirmed it. It was Custer who did not go with the flow. Whether intentionally or not, he did not react appropriately to the reality on the ground.
Needless to say, for reasons best left unsaid, I do not agree with you. While it is true that certain "accusations" were made immediately after the battle, they were done so to make sense of a perceived debacle in which the U. S. Army was defeated by a band of aboriginals. In other words, savages who were incapable of thinking, feeling, and besting the "civilized white man" in combat. Therefore, how could such a defeat occur? Somebody erred big time. Custer merely became the donkey to pin the tail on.
Neither Reno nor Benteen went with "the flow" of this battle. They both made independent decisions that, ultimately, left Custer's command on the "hook." Rightly or wrongly, their decisions to hold up on Reno Hill assured that Custer's command would be completely annihilated.
You see the "flow" of this battle was quite distinctive. One thrust through the center of the village (Reno), a second thrust to the left with the combined aims of preventing escape and following Reno's wake(Benteen) and, finally, the third thrust by Custer.
Thus, it is my opinion that Brent was absolutely correct when he stated that Reno and Benteen did not go with the "flow." Whether the "flow" was rational or not is the basis for another discussion. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 13 2007 8:16:36 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 14 2007 : 7:43:05 PM
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D. C.,
Your lack of response to my rebuttal, for a certainty, does not indicate your agreement with me. Your absence of reply is certainly interesting. However, I have the greatest confidence that I can rely on you to respond with your usual vigor and determination. |
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heinkel12
Recruit
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - January 21 2008 : 10:25:49 PM
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I don't know....I think this idea that the 7th failed because Benteen didn't like Custer and didn't follow orders or "go with the flow" doesn't hold much water. It has always seemed to be an excuse thrown around by those who want to exhonerate Custer and make him a better soldier than he actually was.
I'm sure nearly all of us have worked with superiors that we didn't like, heck, I've done it for over 20 years but it doesn't mean that efficiency has to suffer. You can maintain a professional relationship with someone you don't like and still get the job done.
These guys had been with the 7th for a long time and although there was certainly a history of bad blood the commander seemed to think his regiment was in top shape, however misguided that thought may have been. Why would any of them have stayed for so long if it really was unbearable?
I'm of the opinion that Benteen really didn't know what he was supposed to be doing. Custer's plan seemingly was made up on the fly and Benteen was only included when Custer realised he might need a bit more of a hand than he first thought.
Benteen may well have been too slow to march back towards Custer but then he was probably a little peeved too.....but certainly not enough to let Custer and 200 of his comrades get massacred. Surely any level headed person wouldn't believe that of Benteen.
As for Benteen needing to be nursed along in his role as a company commander, well, I'm afraid I disagree there too. He certainly was decisive when it looked as though the hilltop survivors might dissolve into a rabble. When you look at Benteen's life after the battle it does seem that he may have been haunted by some of the decisions he made that day and who knows, he may have felt a lot of survivors guilt. Anyway, I think ol' Benteen did alright that day, flaws and all. |
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Did Benteen harbor an aversion against Custer?
