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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 05 2006 : 08:02:49 AM
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Google Earth.I have just discovered it .It is absolutly brilliant.You can view the entire battle field from all angles in 3D and at various scales.
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 05 2006 : 3:15:40 PM
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wILD--
I haven't mentioned it because, well, I thought everyone has it on their desktop. That said, though I've viewed the battlefield through the programme, I haven't explored much other than seeing it as presented. So if there are some super secret functions, please tell the computer illiterate.
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movingrobe |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 06 2006 : 07:39:53 AM
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| Wow - thanks wILDI. It took me a little time to find it but it certainly helped my orientation when the words "Cedar Coulee" suddenly appeared, closely followed by Medicine Tail and Deep Ravine. @MRW - you can use the little scroll bar above the compass to tilt the viewpoint, and the compass to view from any direction. The scroll bar at the right side of the compass pans in and out. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 07 2006 : 5:15:50 PM
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Smcf glad you found it of some use.Even after a short viewing it is altering my opinion of a number of issues.If you use the ruler icon you can measure distances.Fascinating marking out the rifle ranges, for example I found that Sharpeshooter ridge is out of range of Reno's position.Also the distance from Weir point to Calhouns position and the elevation of these two points would lead one to believe that if Calhoun was still in action Reno/Benteen could have seen and heard the action.And here I was thinking this subject was played out.
Regards |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2006 : 06:13:01 AM
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| Unfortunately, elevation is flattened somewhat as you go down. Calhoun wouldn't be seen from Reno/Benteen - heard, maybe faintly. I agree about the ranges. They make a nonsense of the idea of Custer covering Yates from NC ridge, for example. Fascinating indeed - there seems a perfectly good coulee descending NW from Weir Point to MTC but Custer chose Cedar Coulee, taking him another half mile away from the point where he was supposedly thinking of crossing. |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2006 : 08:49:07 AM
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| Thanks again - the ruler - I found it handy for measuring line of sight. Look down from above, plot a line, then remove the ruler. A white line remains. Reduce the elevation to eye-level and see what happens to the line. Definitely, an eye-line can take you from Reno to Luce, albeit 2 miles away. I'd say the volleys heard came from around there alright (IMHO). Sharpshooter is about 700 yards, so just about within effective range. Hey - this is fun. |
Edited by - Smcf on October 09 2006 08:55:08 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2006 : 09:42:07 AM
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This is a time consuming tool. It is addictive. Look at Tullocks and try to figure where you would go to start that scout. Davis Creek looks as good as any to me.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 09 2006 : 4:53:18 PM
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Addictive? you betcha.I mean just to check a small detail like Custer being seen on the bluffs waving and shouting ---the distance I measure is 1.2 miles [allowing for changes in the rivers course].Can you see a man at 1.2 miles?
I'm also in the process of altering my view that Custer was heading down to the LBH when attacked.I now suspect he was attacked as he approached LSH.[but I need to study and cross check some more]
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2006 : 08:32:52 AM
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Could Custer have complying with Terry's direction by following Davis Creek to check Tullocks Creek. I now believe so.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2006 : 09:02:10 AM
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| Can you give the relevant degrees north/degrees west references for Tullock's and Davis Creeks? BTW - can you give the same for Crow's Nest? - I'd be interested in a line of sight from there. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 10 2006 : 4:29:47 PM
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If you use the path function you can mark out Custer's possible route from where he left Reno to LSH.
The Crow's nest is marked on a map in Where Custer FellHowever the co. ords. are so small I cannot read them.Perhap a better sighted poster might help us,if not will try and locate my glasses.
Oh by the by our national museum just opened a section on the Wild Geese it contains Keogh's sword,commission and a few other items.I wonder was the sword the one which was left behind. |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 11 2006 : 05:35:31 AM
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| Thanks again - I make it 45:26'14.78 N 107:06'29.79 W at the Crow's Nest (if I understand correctly). |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 05:55:16 AM
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| If this application is accurate, from Crows Nest there is a clear line of sight to the village. The eye-line to the lower end takes you over the northern end of the current Reno/Benteen car park. The valley floor where the village stood is not obscured by the bluffs, which surprized me a little. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 08:13:51 AM
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I make it that the elevation of the CN is approx 1000 ft higher than the top of the bluffs.This allows Custer a view to the horizon of 42 miles and as the LBH is only 16 miles off he should have had a good view of the village particularly as he was using a glass.
How do you get a line sight Smcf?I'm not able to tilt the lancscape sufficiently also you said you get the names of the landscape features displayed --how do you get this? |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 09:36:02 AM
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I plot a line looking down from point A (Village) to point B (CN) - you can use the path, as you suggested to mark out the village say from MTC/Deep Coulee with a few clicks around to the point of the Reno fight, then move the cursor to CN and click. I then remove the ruler leaving the white line. Then, home in from above on CN - right down, orient the compass so the white line runs directly up the screen, then tilt down. If you can see the red dots in the village from the top of CN, that seems to constitute a line of sight, otherwise the red dots would be hidden behind an obstruction. Then move to the village and look from the opposite direction. Another handy feature is the placemarker, which is saved between sessions. You can name the place markers and edit for exact coordinates, helping you to zone in for the next time.
Whoops - it doesn't work so well in the opposite direction. You'd have to move out west a little for the line of sight to work back from the village - perhaps the pony herd could have been seen after all.
The features come up in blue text for me, as I pass close to them. LSH, MTC, Deep Coulee, Calhoun, Weir Point, Battle Ridge, Deep Ravine and Cedar Coulee come up. The Reno/Benteen site, Sharpshooter, NC and Luce ridges do not come up, but are easily recognized. On the sidebar under "Layers", I just have the "Core" view and under the "Primary Database", I have "Terrain" "Populated Places" and "Geographic Features" ticked - all else unticked.
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Edited by - Smcf on October 12 2006 10:22:48 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 2:16:08 PM
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Fellow Earthman
Many thanks for that.
Another way of checking line of sight is to mark the line say from Weir point to LSH.No need to tilt landscape.Now if you center cursor on LSH you can read off the elevation at this point from read out at bottom of screen[note not the eye level elevation].Now do the same at weir point and note elevation.Now check elevation of intermediate points and if none of them are greater than your first two points you have a clear line of sight.However if one or a number of intermediate points are at a higher elevation than one of your main points I'm not so sure that the above works.Ineed to play around with it a bit more.
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 2:57:03 PM
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Greetings again Earthling
Actually if you mark the path/line of sight.Get elevation of first point and than tilt the landscape until eye alt = elevation of first point and you can see second point then you got your line of sight. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 3:33:09 PM
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| Unfortunately my computer won't acces google earth.I know that at Reno Hill there is a sighting post focused on the crow's nest. It is a broad valley and I don't doubt that a part of it can be seen from CN, but just from memory I have to doubt that the village which was near the river could be seen for the bluffs. Are you sure? |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 13 2006 : 04:36:15 AM
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| Thats a pity, Prolar - this thing is magic, but it plays havoc with my graphics controller after a few minutes. Folks, I can see now that after you plot your path, and you look back from the valley floor to CN, the bluffs do indeed cut off the line of sight (as you'd expect, I suppose). Looking from CN, it seemed you could see right to the valley floor, so it appears the application doesn't render the bluffs at that distance. What its does do, though is show the exact location and perspective size of the village from CN. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 13 2006 : 2:21:54 PM
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Prolar ya really gotta get this,It add a whole new dimension to the understanding of this battle.
Just checking the l.o.s.from the CN to Reno's defence sight/bluffs.There is an unrestricted view to the Bluffs which are approx 14.29 miles distance however the l.o.s does not hit the valley floor until 2.21 miles further on.[math calculation].However as the l.o.s. is oblique to the valley the view is not obsecured too much.Generally Custer with the aid of a glass might have been able to view the valley along the line of the modern motorway. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - October 13 2006 : 7:13:51 PM
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| Thanks Wild. I'm due for a computer upgrade, hopefully soon. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 16 2006 : 3:46:13 PM
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Interesting to view the old course of the LBH where Reno withdrew to the timber.Viewing the location now one cannot but wonder why Reno did not retreat across the river here as the bluffs were closer and not quiet as steep.Of course not having the advantage of Google Earth
might have had something to do with it. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2006 : 10:32:06 AM
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A cuple of pieces of trivia curtesy of GE.The feature named Deep Ravine is neither a ravine nor is it deep.However imposing a feature it was back in 1876 it has now lost all it's former character being nor more than 2 ft deep.
There is no feature within rifle range that has a higher elevation than Reno's defence site.
No fire could be directed onto Reno's position from across the river because of its elevation.Reno's position could be only engaged by long range single snipers any other form of attack would have resulted in a higher rate of casualties among the Indians.What puzzles me is that Reno's troops would have outranged the Indians [unless they were now using Custer's carbines]and yet he seems to have suffered more dead and wounded than the attackers. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2006 : 2:35:13 PM
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I may be too broken down by Wiggs and miss the irony flag, but Wild, GE can be deceiving. Sharpshooter Hill, well above Reno, got its name how? There are also hills higher than Reno to the east and south. Look at the recent photos of WCF and trot out your 2ft theory again.
He suffered more dead and wounded because he took fire from four sides (lofting arrows from the river side if nothing else, although not mentioned), everyone was clumped together, and they only needed to kill horses.
Don't make GE the new archaeology. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2006 : 7:23:15 PM
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Don't make GE the new archaeology.
First of all DC I was using it as a geographical tool.
As regards it's accuracy I have checked it against locations-spot heights and distances here and have found it to be accurate to the nearest ft.If you tell me that Deep Ravine is every bit as imposing today as it was in 1876 then I have to take your word for it.
Other than Sharpshooters ridge which is 600 yards distant there are no other features within rifle/carbine range that threaten Reno's position by having a higher elevation.To engage Reno the Indians had to infiltrate close to his position using the broken ground.This must have been a slow business and must have limited the numbers who could have gotten close.In a fire fight such as that where the attackers must move and thus expose themselves their casualties must have been on a par with Reno's.But then there is no evidence of Reno's troops finding dead/wounded Indians close to their positions.
At Rourkes drift the Brits kept quiet about finishing off the wounded Zulu perhaps Reno's men engaged in a spot of retaliation?
If GE is accurate then we have a fantastic tool with which to explore the field. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 19 2006 : 7:52:45 PM
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wILD--
Parts of Deep Ravine have worn down through erosion. There are still sections of the thing that are just as imposing as they were 130 years ago. Of course, current vegetation might give the place a "softer" appearance. I am finally getting my photos from this year's trip developed this weekend; I took several of DR, as well as SSR and the bluffs to the east. Whatever, I'll post them as soon as I can feed them to the scanner. To my untrained eye, distances were oddly difficult to gauge--stuff which looked far away was actually much closer. According to one of the wayside signs at the entrenchment site, bullets fired from the bluffs east of Reno-Benteen battlefield did carry the distance. I believe these bluffs--sorry, I'm going from memory--run parallel to Hwy 212.
Hokahey. |
movingrobe |
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Google Earth
