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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 21 2006 : 12:38:39 PM
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Wild I, apparently you have Where Custer Fell. Do you only look at the pictures?
I cannot tell a lie.Guilty as charged prolar.WCF is what my old sparring patner DC would describe as a big picture book.I check the text only now and again to clarify direction and position of the photograph.I prefer to study the photos,ask the questions and try to come up with an original logical answer not regurgitate other peoples' opinions.
For example.Picture 12.2A page 105 WCF shows the position of Keogh's troops.Those troops did not occupy the ridge line but hold a position below and oblique to it.Why?Why in heavens name would an experienced officer place his men at such a disadvantage.Why did Keogh not rally on Custer's position?Why did Custer not go to Keogh's assistance?[Red Sabbath suggests that the distance between Custer and Keogh was no more than 370 yards]
The lack of any evidence of tactical movement on the field would suggest that Custer's command [all 5 troops]were hit simultaneously.
Recall that there was no attack made on Custer until after Reno's defeat.For nearly an hour Custer was able to sun himself up there on the bluffs overlooking the village provoking absolutely no response from the Indians.Then at approx 4.20 the victorious warriors from the Reno fight pour back into the village waving their 7th cavalry souvenirs then the entire village[well those with balls]cross the LBH in an unstoppable wave and engulf the 7th.
The first poor Keogh knew about it was when the warriors appeared on that ridge line shown in picture 12.2A.Nothing to be done but stand where they were hoping that by some miracle Butler might get through to Benteen.
It also matters how LSH is defined. How far down does it go?Not like you to give me an out DC but good point.
Because the text clearly states that Stungewitz was the only enlisted man of C troop found on LSH,Well then where was C troop?If not with Keogh or Calhoun or with E troop in Deep Ravine then surely they must have been with their officer TC near LSH.
As regards the issue of where the last of the fighting took place,one would have to define "fighting".The field must have been strewn with wounded and dieing.Would a last folorn shot by some dying trooper constitute resistance?How much more heroic the scenario of a last group of troopers gathered around the guidon resisting to the end.When in fact the last resistance was offered by some unfortunate about to lose his manhood to Mrs Blunt Knife and her sisters. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2006 : 2:39:03 PM
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I'm under the impression that Benteen thought C troop horses were dead on LSH, but many of the men were with Keogh or near, and some down the slope. All over.
I really wish someone - besides myself - would do the revelatory corrections to the field on a map. Remove any 20% as spurious, put Reed and Boston down the slope, move Custer and Tom and supporting cast with horses to the monument and some around and over as described, string others as WCF shows the wooden stakes were down the road to Keogh, and dump any 28 on the SSL into the crack of your choice so they're not visible and look at it. Much different in implication and fact.
If true, of course. No proof. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2006 : 4:14:16 PM
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Wild I, I agree that the text of WCF pretty much follows the modern theory of the battle as developed by Fox etc. If you are able to develop a better theory from the photos, more power to you. I will list some of my reservations about your ideas though. The soldiers didn't necessarily die where they chose to fight, but sometimes where they were driven or retreated to. The bodies were not necessarily found where they actually died, the Indians didn't carefully replace them after stripping and mutilating them. And the markers are only approximations of actual burial sites.
I assume that C troop fought where the bodies of their two NCO's were found Finley-Finkle Ridge. Some probably retreated to Calhoun Hill where Gray says some C bodies were identified,their 1st Sgt was found with Keogh, some probably died along Battle Ridge. Also I have to doubt that Keogh sent Calhoun's 1st Sgt as a messenger. I agree that both batallions were engaged at the same time, don't know that it was an hour after Reno's defeat. The indians chasing Reno pulled away when firing was heard from the Custer field. Agree the last stand was the last of the fighting, not the final killing. I consider it to have been at LSH. |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2006 : 7:45:23 PM
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wILD--
No problemo. As Joe has been a bit erratic (BTW, Wiggs, EMAIL ME) over the last year with posting, I thought I'd help out. Sorry I couldn't get more specific with Godfrey's exact paper or page or whatever. I am trying, trying and trying to forge an autobiography of Private Stungewicz, and whilst his location of death is a helpful addition, I am completely afloat as to his life in Russia, or his time in NYC, and where he served the clerkdom he mentions on his enlistment papers ...
As always, Warlord says "hello and drop dead!"
Hokahey |
movingrobe |
Edited by - movingrobewoman on June 23 2006 7:47:49 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2006 : 3:35:20 PM
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MRW,
Did someone say that Stungewicz was the only trooper from C troop found on LSH? If Tom Custer was with HQ perhaps Stungewich was his orderly remember Kanipe also from C troop was with HQ.
I unfortunately lost a fairly lenghty post.Just can't work up the enthusiasm to do it out again so just one or two points.
Photograph 15.7 along with 11.2b and 12A [WCF]show that both Keogh and Calhoun and possibly Harrington were unsighted by battle ridge.In other words these three troops could not see the village and the more than 1500 warriors no more than 5 minutes away.Those three troops just seem to have stopped dead in their tracks.There is no attempt by Keogh to rally these troops.1500 Warriors suddenly appearing on Battle ridge and it was game, set and match.
The battle ridge played a further strategic role in Custer's destruction.It divided the command at the very moment of the Indian attack.My belief is Custer was on the other side of the ridge descending from LSH in the direction of Deep Ravine when he was hit and forced back.
If one takes the final positions and formations of the troops as the best in the time they had then one must conclude that they had very little time indeed.
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2006 : 3:01:00 PM
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Wild I, Hate to disagree with you again {not really}, but Kanipe was not a part of headquarters.In his account in the Custer Myth, he said that he was riding near another Sgt of C co, and it was only because the other Sgt was having trouble with his horse that Kanipe was chosen as messenger. Also when he sighted the Indians on the bluff, he reported to Bobo, the C company 1st Sgt.
It was Godfrey who claimed to recognize Stungewitz on Custer Hill.Pg 127 of WCF. The quote of Godfrey by Wiggs is on the same page. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2006 : 09:51:17 AM
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Prolar,
Wild I, Hate to disagree with you again {not really}, but Kanipe was not a part of headquarters.
You are right my mistake.However Kanipe was close to Tom Custer when he was ordered by Tom to return with a message to the pack train.Now was Tom with HQ? Kanipe states that Tom told him Custer had just issued that order.You recall posting that C coy's final position was further back than Calhoun's.Which means that C coy was the rearmost Coy.The coy furthest away from HQ.Martin states that there were 3 other orderlies at HQ.So are we to believe Custer sent a messenger back to Tom with orders to send a messenger back to the pack train?
If C coy was in fact the rearward coy did Tom abandon it,riding through Keogh's position to join brother on LSH?
To confuse the issue further Son of the Morning Star has a map showing C coy's position on the other side of the battle field close to Deep Ravine.I have another map showing dots representing the markers and this also places C coy on that side of the field.
Is C coys position actually known?
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2006 : 4:08:05 PM
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Getting back to the original topic: Benteen's words...
"I arrived at the conclusion then as I have now that it was a rout, a panic, till the last man was killed; that there was no line formed. There was no line on the battlefield; you can take a handful of corn and scatter it over the floor and make just such lines. There were none; the only approach to a line was where five or six horses were found at equal distances like skirmishers.... Only where Custer was found were there any evidences of a stand. The five or six men I spoke of were where Capt. Calhoun's body was.... The position of the bodies on the Custer battlefield indicated that the officers did not die with their companies.... That shows they did not fight as companies. All the officers, except Col. Keogh, Capt. Calhoun, and Lt. Crittenden were on the line with Custer. That would not be the fact if the command was overwhelmed while making a stand."
Note; "...officers did not die with their companies. That shows they did not fight as companies."
I almost forgot. That was testimony at the Court of Inquiry, 1879. |
Bob Bostwick |
Edited by - Heavyrunner on June 26 2006 4:10:48 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2006 : 5:45:27 PM
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The position of the bodies on the Custer battlefield indicated that the officers did not die with their companies
That is a bit misleading other than Smith and Tom Custer all the remaining officers were with their Coys or missing.
There was no line on the battlefield;
Custer's 5 troops were spread out over approx one mile.Is it possible that all those units were hit simultaneously on a front streaching for a mile and not one of them had time to form the most basic of defence formations a line? |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2006 : 7:28:47 PM
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| wILD... I don't think there was any "front." |
Bob Bostwick |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2006 : 10:51:15 PM
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| Wild,the text of WCF chapters 10 and 11 giva a good summary of modern thinking of the deployment of troops.I think they pretty much follow the Fox line.You won't agree with all of it, but there are some good points.There is no definite answer on TWC. Indications of his being with headquarters are where is body was found, that he didn't accompany C co on Reno's scout, and he seemed to be acting more as a headquarter's aide than a co commander. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 27 2006 : 10:40:39 AM
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HR
wILD... I don't think there was any "front."
Not in the true sense certainly.I used it to describe the line of positions held by the different troops.
prolar
You won't agree with all of it,
I don't. That a professional general officer of civil war experience would "deploy" his troops in such a manner to face overwhelming odds is unbelievable.
Just look at Keogh's position in WCF,it's hopeless.Keogh's troop was the center troop.To get to Keogh The Indians had first to go through troops C and L or if the attack came from the other direction through E and F.Of all the troops I should have had time to take a better position or go to the aid of either Custer or Calhoun.But what does Keogh do?Dismounts in a position overlooked by a ridge and flanked by Calhoun Hill.Absolutely nothing on that field supports the view of LBH scolars that the troops were deployed or held in reserve or that there was central control.The calamity was sudden and simultaneously with coys fighting alone all cohesion gone.
There is no definite answer on TWC.
If we are to believe Kanipe he was with his troop up to the time he sent him back with the message. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 28 2006 : 07:05:32 AM
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| Wild, I had the same problem with losing a post. For now, the 1924 interview with Kanipe was not believable.I think his memory was failing, he said that only four companies were with Custer and Calhoun's body was found on Custer Hill. Since these things are not believable, I stick with my statement about there being no proof. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 30 2006 : 09:00:06 AM
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| There is a difference between a panic run and an ambush. Both events could be a rout. Does the evidence support a panic run or did large numbers of Indians get close to the troopers before they knew it. Just because everyone is killed does not mean there was panic. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 30 2006 : 1:54:17 PM
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AZ,
Really, when you alter the LSH area to the numbers by testimony and the location of bodies by testimony and photo, it looks like it could well have been a strung out race under fire to the top, and not a defensive position at all. At least, not to my civvy eye. Doesn't conflict with that theory, anyway. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 30 2006 : 7:54:47 PM
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DC -- I agree that is the impression I got when I viewed it. Also it would be consistent with HQ leading the way for two reasons they knew where they wanted to go and had the fastest horses. Sometimes you just can't get it done. The Indians won is too easy and there must be some other reason they could defeat Custer.
I also don't believe we don't know for sure that anyone died exactly where they were buried. Each burial detail could or not put them in ground where they were found or in the best burial site close to where found. Also the location where the body was found may where they died or where an Indian placed them. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 01 2006 : 11:54:18 AM
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Agree.
Puzzling to listen to so much surety mouthed to justify three cases and a bullet as part of the battle. Many of the supposed new theories are constructed to do that, fluff Custer, and yet they cannot actually be credited to the hours of battle at all. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 03 2006 : 1:37:55 PM
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I had been of the opinion that Keogh and his troop were the last to go under however further study of the photography in WCF leads me to believe that the last resistance was on Calhoun Hill.
It is obvious that E company were the first to be engaged with most of the troopers being cut off and killed in Deep Ravine.Smith being lucky to escape with C anf F troops back to LSH.If one applies DC's rule of thumb for spurious markers and subtracts the 28 markers that should have been placed in Deep Ravine it reduces the defenders on LSH to a pathetic few.Keogh because he was on the reverse side of the ridge had no idea of what was coming his way.The Indians would have swarmed over LSH and up onto the ridge to find Keogh's troop in a hopeless position below them.Both sectors probably went under at the same time.But further back on or near Calhoun Hill Calhoun would have seen the disaster unfold before him.He had the time and a defensible position and it was here that the 7th breathed it's last.There is evidence of organised defence and prolonged firing from this position.So to answer the question Which of the five companies of cavalry that met their demise with Custer do you feel represented itself best at the Battle of the Little Bighorn?
I would say L company by virtue of the fact that they were at the tail of the command.
I cannot find any serious evidence to suggest that C company held the Finley-Finckle Ridge.I would suggest that the markers here represent stragglers .Kanipe says he was close to TC and TC was with HQ which puts C coy near the head of the column.
did large numbers of Indians get close to the troopers before they knew it.
In a word yes,they were never more than 5 minutes away. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2006 : 10:37:22 AM
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There were three erroneous assumptions that I believe caused the battle to play out:
1. The Indian warriors were 1500 or less.
2. The Indians would not fight a whole Regiment.
3. The Indians would scatter when charged.
This takes away the mystery of the decisions made that day by the army. Attack in smaller groups to engage the Indians and spread out so they don't escape. Drive them down stream to Terry.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2006 : 10:52:56 AM
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| AZ, I agree on 2 and 3, but how far off is 1500? I certainly have no way of knowing, but most put the number of warriors at no more than 2000.Custer didn't expect Terry to be in position downstream on the 25th. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2006 : 11:04:54 AM
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DC I agree on the cartridge forensic identification. Part of any investigation is that the investigated scene, in my case usually a crime scene, is not contaminated. This can occur within minutes and surely within an hour. Taking over 100 years to look at the scene would make me suspect of any conclusion drawn. At best some theories could be drawn but would not be conclusive evidence as to what truly happened on June 25,1876.
I believe someone today could trespass with a 22 semi automatic and run toward the village location and cross the river firing as he ran. In latter years forensics would identify the cartridge cases all came from the same firearm. We could conclude that the Springfield was jammed so this trooper charged the village with a 22 or an Indian had the 22 and chased a trooper. The forensics would be offered as support.
Also I do not believe that searching an area 100 years latter and not finding many cartridges in a location means they were not there in 1876. I would suspect that LSH was picked over by souvenir collectors, including the Indians immediately after the battle,destroying any conclusions that may or not be drawn.
Basically I believe there can be no finding of fact rather there are theories as to what most likely happened. These are subject to ones perceptions of the individuals involved.
My perceptions are that by the time Custer realized that all assumptions made prior to seeing the village were incorrect it was too late. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2006 : 11:11:45 AM
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prolar- I chose 1500 because of a 2 to 1 ratio which the army felt they could handle. 1500 could be how many warriors were there that day but 1500 willing to fight was not expected. Also I do not believe that the 7th total number of troopers and officers and civvies could be counted as their fighting strength. I believe it to be far less due to lack of training and experience. This was not the battle to get a new recruit trained.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 04 2006 : 12:42:20 PM
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Just a further example of the hopeless position in which Custer placed his troops.The distance from Calhoun Hill to LSH is exactly the same as that from the LBH to LSH.Which ment that 1500 warriors could get to Custer faster than the rearward troops on their tired mounts.
I also believe that one of the biggest influences on the so called LBH scholars is the position of Custer's festering corpse on the battle field.Regardless of where he was found these scolars would construct a story to show that that position was the site of the LS.
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - July 05 2006 : 8:13:58 PM
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| I don't know which scholars you are you mean,but the theme of Fox's work is that it was not the site of the last stand. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 06 2006 : 09:27:12 AM
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prolar
This is an example of what I mean.From Red Sabbath----I think no thoughtful and unprejudiced man could have examined the last positions held by Custer,as marked by the dead,without being convinced that he was thinking clearly,fast and courageously.
With the exception of Connell's S.O.T.M.S any other authors I have read have all attempted to construct a battle of tactical manoeuvre culminating in a gallant last stand.They just cannot face the reality
that the Custer and his troops met a bloody ,sweaty, turd filled breeches terrifing and mercifully swift end. |
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