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Rich
Commander-in-Chief
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 11 2006 : 07:22:01 AM
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Poll Question:
Which of the five companies of cavalry that met their demise with Custer do you feel represented itself best at the Battle of the Little Bighorn?
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 11 2006 : 11:10:48 AM
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| Calhoun and his troopers performed their duties exactly as Custer had anticipated they would. Only when the panic stricken survivors of a "C" troop were thrown back, by the Lame White Man charge, did "L" troop,too, fall prey to the same chaos. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 11 2006 : 3:23:26 PM
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The positions of the troops on the field would indicate a sudden calamity leaving Custer with no time to react other than a headlong retreat to LSH.I believe Keogh and Calhoun had a few minutes warning and might have gotten away but choose to stand and fight.This action denied history witnesses to the desaster but saved the 7th from ignominy.
Nice to see you are still alive and well Joe.Regards |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 12 2006 : 9:05:25 PM
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| Thanks Wild, I salute you as a gentleman and a scholar. By the way, your perspective regarding Keogh and Calhoun is right on! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 12 2006 : 10:27:20 PM
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Wild - I agree that the end doesn't look to organized by the grave marker locations. Also the grave markers from L company would indicate that they were in a formation when the died. It is that leap of faith from where the Indians left the bodies and the final grave that leaves me with concern on whether it is factual or not. Did the troopers burying L Company think it was better to put them in formation when they put them in the ground or was it truly where they died?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 13 2006 : 12:31:29 PM
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| According to the burial parties, Indian testimony, and archaeology, there were indications of men from all troops trying to reach Custer Hill with some actually suceeding. Don't see why they would do this unless there was still some fighting on LSH that they were tring to reach. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 14 2006 : 09:24:15 AM
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Prolar:
Forgive me, but I think your summation is incorrect on all points. It's the sort of handy thing people remember.
1. What "evidence" from the burial parties suggests that? The direction of the three day old corpses?
2. What Indian "testimony?" Which Indian spoke English and gave it? If there was a translator, who was it?
3. What archaeological evidence even suggest such a thing to the exclusion of anything else? In fact, short of found note or tape recording of the action, what evidence at all?
This is not to say it isn't true, by the way. I have no evidence against it, but this is a classic case of the mere presence of archaeology on the field has empowered people to reference it for evidence that doesn't exist and, more damning, could not. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 14 2006 : 12:47:08 PM
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DC, you are forgiven, maybe I was relying too much on Fox though usually,like you, I am skeptial of some of his conclusions. Without getting into direction of bodies, firing pin signatures, or any specific Indian testimony; I'll try to make my point.It is a fact that L and I companies fought in the Calhoun Hill and Keogh sectors which are located near the south end of Battle Ridge. F and E companies were near Custer Hill at the north end of Battle ridge. We will ignore C since there is some controversy as to their initial location.
Certainly there is no conclusive evidence, but the soldiers who were on the field on the 27th as well as many of the Indians in the battle believed that survivors of the Calhoun area and the Keogh sector were trying to reach Custer Hill. Added to this , the trail of markers along Battle Ridge with bodies from L and I companies being found near Custer Hill and no indication that E and F men tried to reach the south end is a strong indication that that the survivors fled from south to north. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 14 2006 : 4:59:18 PM
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There is no - zero - Indian testimony. Testimony is under oath where he can be questioned. Nothing like that occured. Accounts through translators, and sometimes others, and generally way after the battle aren't testimony. I understand that laymen like us use the term "testimony" to mean contemporary accounts, but when we use it also to mean actual, legal testimony, it tends to elevate those tales not really testimony to the same level as actual testimony in the minds of the unwary, and grant it the same assumption of having survived fire by questioning. That's why I think this important: there is no Indian testimony.
You can follow the cases of weapons by firing pin signatures, or at least reasonably hypothesize one, but we have no idea in which direction the weapon travelled or who was carrying it, and this assumes no salting or movement since, and reflects only the activities of the battle and not Indians shooting corpses in turn after, perhaps long after.
There is testimony that L and I looked like they were running north in spots and were shot in line. It's "evidence" that does not conflict with that theory, rather than speaks "for" it. I think that too is important. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on June 14 2006 5:00:08 PM |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 14 2006 : 7:55:51 PM
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OK, DC, then strictly speaking the only testimony we have was given at the Reno COI. Well maybe Goldin had sworn testimony when he recommmended himself for a Medal of Honor.Are these your standards for truthfulness? When Flying Hawk or his translator says "some made a stand" at Keogh's position "and when most of them were killed the others fell back toward Custer Hill, fighting and falling," I see no reason to disbelieve him. When Benteen said that the nearest thing to a line was where five or six soldiers and their horses were killed "trying to get to where Custer was",I believe he was describing what he saw. Narratives are not unquestioned, they have been questioned ever since they were given.
Of course firing pin signitures give no clue as when they were fired, which is why I didn't mention them as evidence. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 14 2006 : 11:08:00 PM
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I agree that testimony occurs under oath and is subject sometimes to cross examination. Witnessed statements are evidence. Written statements are evidence also. As DC pointed out until I finally got it translated statements are not evidence. They are not under oath and the translator may be good, bad, or have his own agenda.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 15 2006 : 10:07:15 AM
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| AZ, I agree that having to use a translator greatly increases the liklyhood of a story being changed or distorted. However if we only rely on "legal testimony" it doesn't give us much to discuss and may still not be truthful. After all, this is a forum, not a court. I appreciate DC's point that Indian narratives are not testimony, but I never made any claims for evidence. I believe I said indications. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 15 2006 : 11:23:23 AM
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| prolar- I agree with you also that there is not much to discuss without using non evidence sources. As long as it presented as such then it is entertaining. My objection is for example watching a TV show stating there is a new discovery at LBH. They have used forensic techniques and have drawn new conclusions based upon the forensics. It is quite misleading. Since it is not true evidence the only conclusion should be that it was found there on that day. LBH is not a crime that what preserved intact so that there is absolute relevance to using forensic techniques. What was found was artifacts but not necessarily evidence as to what happened. Since there was lots of visitors to LSH before the fire and collection of items, then how do we know if hundreds of cartridge cases were not picked up at LSH. I know there were some but how many no one knows. If there were hundreds then the conclusions would be different. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 15 2006 : 11:57:01 AM
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Specifically, prolar, I would claim we do not know what Flying Hawk said, only what we're told he said. Just saying that Godfrey under oath gave testimony, and we can't ascribe that to Flying Hawk. We weren't talking "truthfulness."
And I think it also important to be honest about whether we're engaged in entertainment or "searching for truth," which periodically breaks wind as a reason for participating on the forum. My experience is that those who claim such lofty goals are solely Custerphiles hoping to rectify imperfections in his reputation and to solidify The Last Stand as fact and reclaim a discredited view of the American West. Michno is foremost among these.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 15 2006 : 7:22:41 PM
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I have no problem with theoretical discussion, but c'mon. The entire outfit was cut down in a half hour--scattered, chased, disorganized and dead. While there were plenty of brave men, there wasn't much time for bravery.
As has been pointed out, we don't know whether the markers represented men standing and fighting or running for their lives. With Indians all around them and in their midst, not to mention outnumbering them 10- or 20-1, troopers were most likely flying in all directions, unable to group or regroup.
As for soldiering, I'd give all of 'em equal benefit of the doubt, but there wasn't much soldiering to do in that deadly half hour. |
Bob Bostwick |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 16 2006 : 5:17:43 PM
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The entire outfit was cut down in a half hour--scattered, chased, disorganized and dead. While there were plenty of brave men, there wasn't much time for bravery.
Hi Heavyrunner.
Whils I would go along with much of the above description I would take issue with the word "scattered".The troops were decidedly not scattered.The evidence from the markers show a solid formation either elongated or grouped.
Why would the last remnants of Keogh's unit try to get through to Custer?Custer was at least 500 yards off along a ridge swarming with Indians.An attempted break through to LSH would have required leadership and cool heads.And remember that the surviving troopers were now on foot---no chance.
Custer was hit first and stampeded back towards LSH where his units could not even form a defensive line.On the other hand Keogh and Calhoun did make an organised stand.Surely it is logical to assume that organised troops will last longer than disorganised stampeded ones.I feel that far too many of you are reluctant to deny Custer the honour of being the last to fall. |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 16 2006 : 6:27:52 PM
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Howdy, wILD
For one thing, just look at the battlefield. As I've said before, it appears from the markers that the 7th suffered a complete breakdown of command, with dead and dying scattered--yes, scattered, along the mile, or so, from the river to LSH. We know where Keogh and Calhoun fell, along with others, but which direction were they going? Were they organized or were they four troopers trying to aide three wounded comrades? I don't know. Nor do I know whether those markers along the north and south perimiters of the action area represent troopers coming or going.
My point regarding the original question is simple: we have no way of knowing which company performed which way. One thing is for certain. That small group on LSH is just that, a very small group of a 200-plus column. The place sure looked like a scattering to me.
As for Custer being the last to fall, no. That was Errol Flynn.
By the way, I hope your courts end this Russel business and send him back to Whitman County (nearby me) for his just desserts.
All the best,
RSB |
Bob Bostwick |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2006 : 5:29:52 PM
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In the limited time I was able to spend on the battlefield, I can't claim an understanding of the battle from observation.However, my impression of the markers was definetly scattered.At the end of the battle the 7th was of course a scattered, defeated, demoralized, and dead bunch of troopers, but they didn't get that way instantly.From the accounts I read the battle must have lasted at least an hour.There was no overwhelming force of warriors when Custer was first spotted, since most of them were were south in the Reno fight.
Certainly , there are all kinds of ideas as to how the battle went, but I believe the concensus among those who studied it is that the last of the fighting was in the Custer Hill ot Deep Ravine area. I don't have any idea when Custer fell and don't think you do either, but odds are that he wasn't the last. Whoever said he was? |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 18 2006 : 10:04:48 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by polar
According to the burial parties, Indian testimony, and archeology, there were indications of men from all troops trying to reach Custer Hill with some actually succeeding. Don't see why they would do this unless there was still some fighting on LASH that they were trying to reach.
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Men under acute, combat stress may flee to wards perceived safety,the operative word being "perceived." Intense Indian fire from Greasy Grass Ridge, combined with Gall's charge, may have prompted soldiers to flee to wards a,relatively speaking,area of lesser danger;Custer Hill. Not yet confronted with a massive,Indian onslaught,Custer Hill may have appeared to be a haven of safety to the soldiers when faced with the Calhoun Hill circumstances.
If one views the disruption and, subsequent panic of "C","L","I" troops as the beginning of the end, as it were, we must then review available information that would support such a thesis? For example, the burial parties,archeology,and Indian testimony as pointed out by Polar, is exactly what we need to review.
"Calhoun's position was overrun by the same Indians firing from Henry ville and Greasy Grass Ridge." Douglas Scott (Archaeological Insights.)
There were forty-two bodies and thirty-nine dead horses on Custer Hill. At Last Stand Hill were Francis Hughes and Thomas Tweed (L), Lt. Smith (E), and Ignatz Stungewitz (C), and John Parker and Edward Driscoll (I).Custer Myth, Graham.
"One element of the Sioux attack that unfolded during the Calhoun episode is associated with the Sioux leader Gall. Gall's observations accord well with the archaeological evidence for skirmishing at Henry ville and the trooper pathway leading to Calhoun Hill. Fox.
Finally, Indian testimony while not always reliable may be quite useful when corroborated by other sources. it is true that Indian perspectives such as time, size, and distance were varied from "White" perspectives,however,to disregard their SPOKEN testimony in "Toto"
"We crossed the greasy grass below a beaver dam and came upon many horses. One soldier was holding the reins of eight or ten horses. On the ridge just north of us, I Saw blue clad men running up a ravine, firing as they ran."
Moving Robe Woman is describing the action at Calhoun Hill.
In summation prolar, your perspective is not only reasonable, but very probable. When we, as students of this battle, are open minded and wiling to accept all viable information we grow and persevere. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2006 : 08:23:35 AM
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| Thanks Wiggs, It is certainly not my unique perspective, but a concencus of people who have given it a lot of study. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2006 : 3:10:24 PM
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Joe
There were forty-two bodies and thirty-nine dead horses on Custer Hill. At Last Stand Hill were Francis Hughes and Thomas Tweed (L), Lt. Smith (E), and Ignatz Stungewitz (C), and John Parker and Edward Driscoll (I).Custer Myth, Graham.
Very grateful if you could supply page ref. for the above.
If one views the disruption and, subsequent panic of "C","L","I" troops as the beginning of the end,
I can't understand why you group C company with I and L. C company was Tom's and Tom and most of his men were on LSH.In fact "Where Custer fell" suggests that the horse holders for C company died in Deep Ravine along with most of Smith's troop.
Custer Hill. Not yet confronted with a massive,Indian onslaught,Custer Hill may have appeared to be a haven of safety to the soldiers when faced with the Calhoun Hill circumstances.
If it had not yet faced a massive Indian onslaught how do you account for the lack of any indication of a defensive perimiter?
The photograph on page 105 of Where Custer fell shows the Keogh position represented by markers in what I would describe as a solid skirmish line as opposed to the jumble on LSH.The markers on LSH tell a story of disorganisation,no fire control,panic,desperation and every man for himself.
proler
I don't have any idea when Custer fell and don't think you do either, but odds are that he wasn't the last. Whoever said he was?
The reference was in regard to Custer's immediate command.I was never suggesting that Custer himself was the last to fall.
but I believe the concensus among those who studied it is that the last of the fighting was in the Custer Hill ot Deep Ravine area.
Whatever about LSH you are hardly suggesting that E troop without its office bolted and ran for Deep Ravine or on the other hand an isolated unit so close to the village held out the longest?
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2006 : 5:40:45 PM
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Wild--
One reference to Stungewitz's--the sole Russian with the Seventh-- location on LSH is on page 127 of the text of "Where Custer Fell," a really great book. The private's body was recognised by Godfrey. Their source is: "ES Godfrey Diary, Godfrey Papers, Library of Congress."
MRW |
movingrobe |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2006 : 1:06:37 PM
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Thanks for that MRW.
Just one other point.If it was possible for troopers from Calhoun's troop to fight their way along a 1000 yard ridge infested with Indians then it was possible to escape and the only attempt I know of is Butler and I believe he was trying to get through to Benteen.Of course perhaps Keogh did try to communicate with Custer thus one or two troopers from I&C on LSH but this is just guessing. |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2006 : 5:30:56 PM
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| Wild I, apparently you have Where Custer Fell. Do you only look at the pictures? Because the text clearly states that Stungewitz was the only enlisted man of C troop found on LSH,Tom Custer was there but he is believed to have been with headquarters. The reference to C company horseholders was only a caption on a 1940 era photo. The quote by Wiggs from Godfrey is refrenced and footnoted. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2006 : 7:59:45 PM
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I suspect it's an error to mistake remarks that 'so and so was the only member of Z company identified' at a location with 'so and so was the only member found there.'
It also matters how LSH is defined. How far down does it go? Most seem to think of it as defined by the current fence and monument area, but Reed and Boston seem to have been found much further away, if Reed was actually found. Certainly, as WCF shows, a significant portion should be strung along the road to the Keogh area, and those with Custer up and over the hill. If you take all these out, it looks very different than a last stand or much of any fight, because Custer isn't in the center of anything, rather just over the tip of the hill. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2006 : 9:35:14 PM
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| DC, it would have been more accurate to say that Stungewitz was the only C troop enlisted man identified on LSH. Still that is a long way from Tom Custer and most of his company were found on LSH which is what Wild I claimed. |
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