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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - January 13 2007 : 4:51:42 PM
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| Yes, maybe he should have but, dem's orders is orders! |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2007 : 11:37:47 AM
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| He had no orders to attack on the 25th. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 16 2007 : 7:07:02 PM
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True, he had no orders to attack on the 25th, or any other specific date for that matter. In essence, he was directed to respond to a general locale where is was believed, by the military intelligentsia, that a rather large gathering of Natives Americans were located. These Indians had refused to submit themselves to the government's demand that they "report" to their nearest Reservation.
Needless to say, such obstinacy could not go unpunished, thus a three prong pincer movement(developed by Sheridan)was designed to "corral" the heathens.
Crook's responsibility was to prevent the Indians from escaping to the south. In June of 1876, Col. Gibbon joined with Terry on the Yellowstone River. A possible southern escape having believed to be effectively blocked by Crook, Terry and Gibbon would arrive in the Little Big Horn area around June 27, thus establishing a second blockade. Custer was ordered to scout the country and locate the Indians. The major controversy in this issue is whether Custer was authorized to attack when he did.
The timing of Custer's attack was not so much based upon a specific date as it was upon a specific condition, the Indians being forced to flee from Custer towards Crook or Terry and then completely subjugated. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on January 16 2007 7:11:26 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 17 2007 : 01:46:07 AM
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The timing of Custer's attack was not so much based upon a specific date as it was upon a specific condition, the Indians being forced to flee from Custer towards Crook or Terry and then completely subjugated
I believe to only toward Terry was acceptable since that is who he worked for. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 20 2007 : 7:50:35 PM
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| Reviewing my thoughts I agree, you are right. If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, Terry, Gibbons, and Custer were only vaguely aware of Crook's location and completely unaware that he had met the enemy ans pulled back. It is true that Terry's orders were also somewhat enigmatic which is incredible when one realizes he was a lawyer as well as a General. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 28 2007 : 6:39:47 PM
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| There you go. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 28 2007 : 7:33:01 PM
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| If it is plausible to assume that Terry (like all lawyers) had a mastery over the English language, how then can we explain his vague orders to Custer. Why so much discretion? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 28 2007 : 8:33:08 PM
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Lawyer are among the worst writers on the planet, hardly masters of the English language. No doubt you've noted that in The Law Enforcement Years when you read certain laws and requirements.
Terry said they weren't orders, but "instructions." And they were not vague; certainly they were more informative than Martini's note. There wasn't a lot of discretion unless Custer saw valid reason to depart from them. The moment he did, Terry was off the hook. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 30 2007 : 7:22:06 PM
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If my recollections are correct, and they may not be, every source I have encountered regarding the communication from General Terry to Custer referred to that communication as "Orders."
"Custer had received written orders from General Terry, his immediate superior. Terry had given Custer considerable discretion. He wrote that it was impossible to give definite INSTRUCTIONS, and in any case, such precision 'might hamper Custer's action.
Fox, page 232
Lt. Col. Custer, Th cavalry:
Col.:
The Brigadier General commanding "DIRECTS" that as soon as your regiment......
It is, of course, impossible to give you any definite INSTRUCTIONS....
W. A. Graham the Story of the Little big Horn.
Although the above instructions to Custer have been called an "order" technically they should be called a "Letter of Advice."
Page 290, C. Kuhlman
"But, I feel my PLAN must have been successful had it been carried out."
Portion General Terry's Dispatch July 2
Page 264, C. khulman
"Since controversy has raged, fierce and bitter, for more than seventy years over whether Custer did, or did not, violate his ORDERS, they are quoted in full."
page 248,Custer's Luck Stewart.
You are certainly correct when you say that Terry's "instructions" were more informative than Martin's note. Of course Terry was not under the stress that Poor Cooke was. Besides, Cooke's piece of note paper was a lot smaller than Terry's, hence the necessity to use less words. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on January 30 2007 7:32:26 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 08 2007 : 08:54:03 AM
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| Another important point is that the header is not designated as ORDER as are other ORDERS from Terry. Since he had plenty of time to do it right why was this left out. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 10 2007 : 12:58:38 PM
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I really don't know to be honest. I can speculate though. Custer had recently been chastised by President Grant and, he was certainly smarting from this encounter. Terry was aware of this. General Terry possessed no knowledge, by his own admission, regarding "Indian" fighting. Custer was regarded as the "Pro" in this field. Why I don't know as his experiences were not as extensive as thought. During the recent war, Custer was a Brigadier General whose rank was respected by the members of the current Army.
In summation, perhaps a combination of all three factors inclined terry to take the approach he did with Custer. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 27 2007 : 11:12:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
There is no Indian "testimony," so nobody can consider it suspect.
The authoritative potentate of Indian affairs has spoken. Blessed with an abundance of intellect and knowledge far beyond the scope of the average man, he knows that there is no "Indian testimony." He knows that "NO" Indian properly comprehended the English language sufficiently enough to speak it. He knows that every Indian interpreter was either sub-human, liars, or merely Cro-magnon thugs who lived only to cheat and deceive the world.
He knows that the eloquent "speeches" by intelligent, Native Americans could not be possible valid. A "White" man must have written them? He who demands proof from all others, offer none and, never does.
One can not help but wonder, why is it that such a superior intellect continues to waste his time battering back and forth with mere mortals such as we.
Please show one shred of evidence that your assumption (something assumed) has any validity. You will not because you can not. This is not the first time, your threads are full of edicts and demands you refuse to follow yourself.
Don't misunderstand me, you have a right to post as you will. Just do us a favor, substantiate what you say. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 26 2007 : 8:25:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Wiggs feels safe if he waits long enough - two months, apparently - to try to reply in hopes people only read the latest posts. He has no argument with anyone other than himself for what he's posted over the years, still up. Let's see.....
Wiggs, just who exactly do you think you're fooling? Your denial and your original statement use ALMOST EXACTLY the same words.
THE DENIAL: "I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind on the valley floor."
THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT: "Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE observed being slaughtered in the valley."
That is from page 4 of Benteen's Order thread - page 3 of the threads, page 3 of that thread - as noted by, not me, R. Larson. Wiggs tries to bluff his way out, cannot, denies fact still up. Again, if anyone wants to laugh, it's a hysterical thread to read. Note the words he misuses, sometimes meaning the opposite of what he thought. As well, the fake quotes, the plagiarism. Still up.
I rediscovered an interesting allegation by D.C, in which he, confidently, refers to "fake quotes", and plagiarism on my behalf. Naturally, I found such allegations offensive and personal. Most men would find such harsh statements equally offensive, don't you think?
Incidental,he conveniently "forgets" to mention that I post source and page numbers to my "false quotes"routinely.
He also, once again, fails to mention my utilization of quotation marks which signify that the passage is being quoted. Inexplicably, he regards my statement, "Benteen failed to render aid to 10 o 12 soldiers that he observed being slaughtered in the valley"
As incorruptible proof that I am a "liar."
May I quote from Benteen's official written statement regarding this incident, please note D.C. that I am utilizing quotation marks:
"Another mile and and a half brought me in sight of the stream and plain in which were SOME OF OUR DISMOUNTED MEN fighting, and Indians CHARGING and RECHARGING them in great numbers. I then noticed our men in large numbers running for the bluffs on the right bank of the stream. I concluded at once that those that those had been repulsed , and was of the opinion that if I CROSSED the ford with my battalion, that I should have had it treated in like manner; for from long experience with cavalry, I judged there were 900 veteran Indians right there at that time, against which the large elements of RECRUITS in my battalion would stand no EARTHLY CHANCE as MOUNTED MEN. I then moved up the bluffs and reported my command to etc."
fact, the moment Benteen turned his mounted away, the dismounted men on the valley floor were doomed to death. This is an actuality substantiated by Benteen's own report. Who else was in a position for helping them? No one!
In conclusion my statement was correct. I did not condemn Benteen I merely stated a fact. In his situation, his action was "reasonable" I merely reported what he did. However, I would imagine that if you were a mother, father, son, or daughter of those men you may feel obligated to point a finger or two.
last, but certainly not least, while my threads may be the epitome of "purple Prose", please D.C., define any "hysterical" remark I have made.Remember hysterical is defined as "uncontrollable laughing or crying." Would failure to do so make you a "liar?" Of course not, it merely makes you a proponent of slinging crap disguised as skepticism.
Disagree if you will, I nor anyone else on this forum has a problem with that. It is your perceived eagerness to slander the efforts of others that I find repulsive. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on August 26 2007 8:48:31 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 6:47:15 PM
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| Some things never change. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2007 : 5:45:58 PM
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| Sad but, unfortunately, true. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 12 2007 : 11:01:21 PM
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Kind of exciting guys. By the way I would like to point out that Custer was
a Major General, promoted Oct 24,1864. By brevet, after the war was over his
volunteer commission expired. He was a Captian in the 5th Cavalry. He relin-
quished his command on Jan 31,1866. Several months later he was offered a Lt.
Cononelcy in the 7th Cavalry, the rest is history. |
Sgtmajor |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 14 2007 : 12:12:10 PM
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sgtmajor,
I've always wondered what his future would have been had Custer remained at his higher rank. I believe, from some of my readings, that his pay cut was rather severe and, subsequently, resulted in difficulties in supporting his family which certainly cause embarrassment for such a man.
Being a proud man, I also believe that maintaining his higher rank would have been commensurate with Custer's opinion of himself. Personal satisfaction of one's achievements in life normally affect personality in one way or another. Perhaps had he not been so brash, fearless, and opinionated his actions may have played out differently on that faithful day. |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 14 2007 : 8:01:26 PM
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JW, He did have to change his living habits, as a matter of fact he had
intentions of fighting in Mexico, and keep his General rank and for a
great deal of money, however Grant would not allow it. He had friends in
high places that were willing to give him work, but Custer knew only one
thing and that was to fight in battle, that is what he wanted to do and
as we know that is what took place, and it took his life. Custer's luck
ran out. But like you, I have often wondered what would have happened to
Custer, had he not gone with the 7th Cavalry. |
Sgtmajor |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 22 2007 : 6:17:26 PM
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What does Benteen's words have to do with Indian "Testimony" which is the name of this thread. Part of what we leave here is for others to read and follow the theme of the thread. Thanks and Merry Christmas to all that believe in it. For the rest of you best wishes.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Sgtmajor109th
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 23 2007 : 6:39:54 PM
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| Marry Christmas to you all. And may the jolly old fellow be good to you. |
Sgtmajor |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2007 : 07:16:26 AM
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quote:
a solemn statement made under oath
an assertion offering firsthand authentication of a fact; "according to his own testimony he can't do it"
something that serves as evidence; "his effort was testimony to his devotion"
Evidence delivered by a witness at trial either orally at trial or in the written form of an affidavit or deposition.
To speak under oath.
The evidence that a witness provides under oath.
A formal statement, by a party or witness in a case under oath. Statement may be verbal or written.
a statement or declaration made to establish a fact or facts and given under oath.
Other kinds of testimony
quote:
Testimony is a book (ISBN 0-87910-021-4) that was published in October 1979 by the Russian musicologist Solomon Volkov. He claimed that it was the memoirs of the composer Dmitri Shostakovich. ...\
Testimony is a progressive rock concept album by Neal Morse. Released in 2003, this double-album is in five sections detailing the composer's life and conversion to Christianity. ...
A set of personal beliefs about the doctrines of the Church; an expression of such beliefs.
etc
This definition may be distinguished from the legal notion of testimony in that the speaker does not have to make a declaration of the truth of the facts.
I found the above and think it helps when considering any other definition of the word testimony other than sworn. Without the declaration of truth it is rather meaningless to call it testimony. Accounts seem to me to be the most correct. Most are second hand Indian accounts with no way to test the veracity of the translation as compared to what was actually said.
Another finding- "The field of oral history is filled with internal debates; most oral historians, however, would not define testimony and oral history as synonymous."
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 6:33:22 PM
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Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Lawyer are among the worst writers on the planet, hardly masters of the English language.
This has to be the most amazing statement ever made by anyone since the dawn of creation!!! Every lawyer I have ever heard of possessed an amazing ability in creative writing. So prodigious are they with this "art" that they have managed to write/create every loophole to circumvent every law ever made. Please, on bended knee, give me one example of a lawyer who is a "worst" writer on the planet!!! Please. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on May 29 2008 6:37:23 PM |
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Brent
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 10:54:05 AM
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I think generally speaking when an officer tells a subordinate to do something, it's pretty much an order. That's sort of a military default way of operating. Dosen't have to be in writing, have the word "order" in it. . If someone says "Round up those Indians"-that's an order. But he said' "I recommend you round them up, or suggest you round them up--that's a bit different.
So Terry's message to Custer was an order in the strict sense. I think Fox has it pretty much right--an order do do "something" but giving wide latitude on exactly how and when to do it. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 31 2008 : 2:54:04 PM
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| Absolutely correct!!! A great deal of latitude for Custer's actions were appropriate as the Native American style of warfare was an unpredictable, guerrilla style in which the European style was ofter ineffective. For example, Indians simple did not "stand-fast" when hundreds of mounted soldiers charged with trumpets blowing and howling cheers filling the air. When Terry issued his orders no one knew the exact location nor disposition of the village. Thus Custer, with his swift, calvary unit was utilized as a striking force (hammer) to quickly locate, strike, and drive the Indians against Terry and Gibbon, the anvil. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 05 2008 : 10:30:53 PM
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| Terry was lucky that Custer did not go to the headwaters as written or else he would have been in Wyoming and Terry alone with Indians moving his way. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Topic |
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Indian "Testimony"
