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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
 Posted - January 21 2006 : 7:29:37 PM
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In other words was Custer capable of command at that time? I sure wouldn't have wanted him to be the pilot of my aircraft, that's for sure! Let alone giving him charge of over 650 men bent on proving something that could never be.
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Wild1....Meanwhile back in Washington our hero has publically hung himself.He is a laughting stock and has been treated in the most appaling humilating manner.His evidence to the committee dealing with the charges against Belknap has been found to be no more that vicious gossip except in the case of one piece of evidence dealing with what appeared to be a dodgy delivery of corn.
Terry in the mean time finds himself in the s***.His list of alternate commanders has been rejected and he has been ordered to command the column himself.You can still hear his expletives echo down the years.But he has friends in Washington and he coaches Custer with his begging letter.
The humilated Custer is relieved to be out of Washington and back with his regiment.And now for the last cut which is delivered by his mentor and savior Terry and proves to be the deepest.Bye the Bye says Terry that dodgy delivery of corn which you thought was ordered by Belknap was in fact ordered by me.You can hear Custer's silent scream.
Fastforward to the Indian trail and Custer can't wait to follow it."To hell with Washington and nice General Terry I'll show those bastards."His mental state must have been one of turmoil.Not the right frame of mind to face the unexpected with.
It is said that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton.Well the battle of the LBH was lost in the waiting rooms of the White House.
And I might add....
Flashback Merrington ~ Boston Custer in a letter to his mother, June 8th 1876:
"I do hope this campaign will be a success, and if Armstrong could have his way I think it would be, but unfortunately there are men along whose campaign experience is very limited, but, haveing an exalted opinion of themselves, feel that their advice would be valuable in the field. But I think before this trip is over they will be thoroughly understood by those who should know."
Those who should know? We now know who they were, don't we?
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
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Posted - January 22 2006 : 09:31:11 AM
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Benteen- quote:
In other words was Custer capable of command at that time? I sure wouldn't have wanted him to be the pilot of my aircraft, that's for sure! Let alone giving him charge of over 650 men bent on proving something that could never be.
Certainly Terry and his Superiors most have thought Custer capable of command. Terry had complete control of Custer but chose to turn him loose on his own. What does that say about Terry? He didn't mind Custer piloting an aircraft just as long as he wasn't in it??? |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 12:08:30 PM
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Of course one could argue the point that Terry didn't just "turn him loose." Because I don't want to open that can of worms, instead will offer this.
Merrington, Custer to Elisabeth, June 22, 1876
"I send you an extract from Genl. Terry's offical order, knowing how keenly you appreciate words of commendation and confidence in your dear Bo. 'It is of course impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and, were it not impossible to do so, the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy and ability to impose on you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy..'
Your devoted boy Autie"
Based upon what Boston said to his mother on the 8th. And what Custer later said to his wife on the 22nd it paints a portrait of "opportunity". If the opportunity ever came when he (Custer) could seize the initiative from Terry, he would do so. And If you will note, Custer's letter to his wife not only told of the "words of commendation and confidence" of Terry on Custer's behalf, what he didn't say was the rest of Terry's orders that would have restricted this "movement" when not so nearly in contact with the enemy! |
Edited by - Benteen on January 22 2006 12:10:15 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 3:31:20 PM
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Of course one could argue the point that Terry didn't just "turn him loose." Because I don't want to open that can of worms, instead will offer this.
Merrington, Custer to Elisabeth, June 22, 1876
"I send you an extract from Genl. Terry's offical order, knowing how keenly you appreciate words of commendation and confidence in your dear Bo. 'It is of course impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and, were it not impossible to do so, the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy and ability to impose on you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy..'
Your devoted boy Autie"
Based upon what Boston said to his mother on the 8th. And what Custer later said to his wife on the 22nd it paints a portrait of "opportunity". If the opportunity ever came when he (Custer) could seize the initiative from Terry, he would do so. And If you will note, Custer's letter to his wife not only told of the "words of commendation and confidence" of Terry on Custer's behalf, what he didn't say was the rest of Terry's orders that would have restricted this "movement" when not so nearly in contact with the enemy!
Benteen-- I believe Terry only had two choices stay with Custer or let him go. Terry was smart enough to realize that if he didn't stay with Custer it would have that effect. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 3:55:51 PM
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Of course one could argue the point that Terry didn't just "turn him loose." Because I don't want to open that can of worms, instead will offer this.
There are no sacred cans Benteen.Let's open them all in persuit of the probable truth.
And If you will note, Custer's letter to his wife not only told of the "words of commendation and confidence" of Terry
Reading between the lines this sounds like a scoulded schoolboy looking for some crumb of comfort.
Custer's state of mind is not uncommon.It was something akin to summit fever.This syndrome has resulted in the death's of many sportsmen who's egos just will not let them accept defeat.These people put enormous pressure on themselves.They give hostages to fortune and their reputations are paramount.
Custer clearly saw the enormity of the task he had set himself.Sometime after 3.30 he saw all chance of redemption vanish.A laughing stock in Washington,now defeated on the field of battle by primatives.There was no going back to the missus now.How could he face Terry who had placed such confidance in him.Maybe face a courtmarshal.
During that last hour was Tom and Cooke pleding with him to do something.What anguish he must have enjured.That shot to the temple must have been a welcome release. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 9:03:10 PM
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AZR ~ Terry was smart enough to realize that if he didn't stay with Custer it would have that effect.
Now I personally am not trying to take anything away from Terry or his decisions, nor am I trying to read his mind. Therefore I will let the Custer's answer this one.
Boston ~ "But I think before this trip is over they (TERRY & Gibbon) will be thoroughly understood by those who should know."(GAC, Tom, Boston, Autie, Calhoun etal...) In other words, would it have mattered one wit or another whether Terry realized "anything"?
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Wild1 ~ Reading between the lines this sounds like a scoulded schoolboy looking for some crumb of comfort.
Custer's state of mind is not uncommon.It was something akin to summit fever.This syndrome has resulted in the death's of many sportsmen who's egos just will not let them accept defeat.These people put enormous pressure on themselves.They give hostages to fortune and their reputations are paramount.
Custer clearly saw the enormity of the task he had set himself.Sometime after 3.30 he saw all chance of redemption vanish.A laughing stock in Washington,now defeated on the field of battle by primatives.There was no going back to the missus now.How could he face Terry who had placed such confidance in him.Maybe face a courtmarshal. During that last hour was Tom and Cooke pleding with him to do something.What anguish he must have enjured.That shot to the temple must have been a welcome release.
While I agree that Custer's state of mind was less than acceptable that day. I cannot agree that this was a major cause of this disaster. In the end, yes, it played it's part, and to that degree you are correct. What we fail to realize is that someone else determined the destiny of the 7th that day. And that someone was the one who led the Regiment forward while Custer was on the Crow's Nest. That someone was also the one who believed that the discovery of somthing so simple as a cracker box betrayed thier presence to the indians. That someone was also supposedly credible indian scout(s) that believed (no they had no positive proof) that they had been discovered and so conveyed to Custer this "belief." Perhaps, just perhaps had Custer not been so fatigued by the night march, had he been able to think things through. Send scouting missions out to find out the truth.... ad infinitum... He would have done exactly what he said he was going to do. Wait until the wee early morning hours of the 26th, surround and attack them then.
Custer's error's certainly played it's part, there can be no doubt in that. But his error's wasn't the one's that created the fiasco now known as Custer's Last Stand. One doesn't need to wonder what pleadings came from Custer's men. One must assess what was going through his mind about the person who compromised the mission by bringing forth the regiment... erronious cracker box reports of discovery... and half crazed indian scouts who couldn't wait to steal not 100's of indian ponies as Custer expected, but only 2 or 3 per scout, just as Bloody knife did. What was it he said... taking about 3 stolen Sioux ponies back. "Here take these, that ONE is mine." Custer was concerned not about individual horses and who their owners in the end would be. He wanted the whole herd stampeded. What he got was certainly less. And one can only imagine what his thoughts were of those scouts who were supposed to run those horses off. Certainly when he seen hundreds if not thousands of indians mounted and coming to drive and pound his tiny band into the dust of LSH.
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Edited by - Benteen on January 22 2006 9:06:49 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 10:24:12 PM
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Now I personally am not trying to take anything away from Terry or his decisions, nor am I trying to read his mind. Therefore I will let the Custer's answer this one.
Boston ~ "But I think before this trip is over they (TERRY & Gibbon) will be thoroughly understood by those who should know."(GAC, Tom, Boston, Autie, Calhoun etal...) In other words, would it have mattered one wit or another whether Terry realized "anything"?
Benteen--Sure it does. Custer was not an unknown factor in disregarding commanding officer desires and orders. Terry could have chose to go with Custer and remained in command of the 7th. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 22 2006 : 10:32:02 PM
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Wild-- quote:
Custer clearly saw the enormity of the task he had set himself.Sometime after 3.30 he saw all chance of redemption vanish.A laughing stock in Washington,now defeated on the field of battle by primatives.There was no going back to the missus now.How could he face Terry who had placed such confidance in him.Maybe face a courtmarshal.
During that last hour was Tom and Cooke pleding with him to do something.What anguish he must have enjured.That shot to the temple must have been a welcome release.
Interesting theory. Custer sacrificed 5 companies rather face what a defeat of the 7th would mean to him personally if he survived. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2006 : 11:59:27 AM
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AZR ~ Benteen--Sure it does. Custer was not an unknown factor in disregarding commanding officer desires and orders. Terry could have chose to go with Custer and remained in command of the 7th.
While I do not disagree with you on Custer disregarding his "commanding officers desires and orders." Terry remaining with Custer or vise-versa was not something to be. And is something that would have to have been considered before the meeting aboard the Far West. Thus we have Boston's letter to his mother. Read it carefully. Note the key words and phrases that not only suggest "opportunity", but strongly implying that if such an opportunity arose it would be taken.
Boston Custer in a letter to his mother, June 8th 1876:
"I do hope this campaign will be a success, and if Armstrong could have his way I think it would be, but unfortunately there are men along whose campaign experience is very limited, but, haveing an exalted opinion of themselves, feel that their advice would be valuable in the field. But I think before this trip is over they will be thoroughly understood by those who should know."
Now then after the meeting on the Far West we have Custer stating emphatically that he has that opportunity. And in spite of everything else in Terry's orders this "extract" above anything else was emphasized to Libby with what word? "Keenly". Just who was "keenly appreciating Terry's words? And what opportunities did it open up? Flashback Boston's letter to his mother!
Merrington, Custer to Elisabeth, June 22, 1876
"I send you an extract from Genl. Terry's offical order, knowing how keenly you appreciate words of commendation and confidence in your dear Bo. 'It is of course impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and, were it not impossible to do so, the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy and ability to impose on you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy..'
Your devoted boy Autie"
And from this moment on it didn't matter, wouldn't matter one whit what Terry's would have or could have realized. All that mattered was those words he so "keenly" appreciated. Nothing else in Terry's orders mattered. Not one thing! Why? "I do hope this campaign will be a success, and if Armstrong could have his way I think it would be..." He now had his way, and what was he going to do with it? "I think before this trip is over they will be thoroughly understood by those who should know." And, "before this trip" was over he was going to do what? Make it "thoroughly understood" to those "whose campaign experience is very limited, but, haveing an exalted opinion of themselves, feel that their advice would be valuable in the field", "by those who should know"! |
Edited by - Benteen on January 24 2006 12:01:07 PM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2006 : 5:05:51 PM
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| Interesting theory. Custer sacrificed 5 companies rather face what a defeat of the 7th would mean to him personally if he survived.Sure.In the civil war his units had the highest casualty rate.He left Elliot to his fate,likewise Reno not to mention shooting deserters out of hand. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 24 2006 : 11:41:29 PM
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| "Interesting theory. Custer sacrificed 5 companies rather face what a defeat of the 7th would mean to him personally if he survived.Sure.In the civil war his units had the highest casualty rate.He left Elliot to his fate,likewise Reno not to mention shooting deserters out of hand." During the civil war given the actions he preformed aren't they by nature high casualty rates? Of the other three the shooting deserters doesn't bother me as much. Elliot from what I have read would have been dead anyway. As far as Reno we just don't when that lack of logical behavior began. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 25 2006 : 12:49:12 PM
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During the civil war given the actions he preformed aren't they by nature high casualty rates?
No they are not.But Custer's casualties were higher than any other federal cavalry unit.
Of the other three the shooting deserters doesn't bother me as much.What bothers you is not the standard by which justice is governed.
Elliot from what I have read would have been dead anywayCuster did not know this.
As far as Reno we just don't when that lack of logical behavior began.
2.43 pm is as good a time as any. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 25 2006 : 9:40:48 PM
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Of the other three the shooting deserters doesn't bother me as much.What bothers you is not the standard by which justice is governed. I agree. My viewpoint is coming from a subordinate position. If I don't desert I am not in trouble if the commanding officers leaves me on the battlefield I am in trouble. My point goes to leadership and not to justice. Punishing someone for abandoning the regiment must have been within the commanding officers purview. Therefore it was not unlawful or I would expect him to have received more severe punishment. I believe it was thought that shooting deserters was excessive and not to be tolerated but still within his authority.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Regarding the 7th's defeat
