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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - September 26 2005 : 12:38:59 PM
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The revelations about the death of Pat Tillman have proved enlightening to the ongoing debate about Reno's actions, although there is no real syllogism. Senator McCain has provided a bedrock to force the military to tell the truth and not seek refuge in lies and bombast wrapped up in rah-rah psuedo-patriotic fervor.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL
It shows that soldiers - ordinarily good soldiers - lie after battles to protect themselves, try to deflect accusations, screw up. It happens all the time, but the insertion of celebrity broke the natural course of events. Friendly fire has always been a major source of death in every army, and so has momentary incompetence, which in civilian life is called a mistake.
But we have here a case of, in civvie life, manslaughter. Should those responsible be punished, and if so how stongly? If Tillman had been a clerk in Radio Shack previous to this, I'd bet we'd never have learned any detail of his death at all.
So should Tillman's(Custer's) death be accorded more attention because of celebrity?
Should his murderers(it's hard to say that)/Reno be punished? Why should this be treated any different than all other incidents?
Again, I know the syllogism isn't there, but many components are. Celebrity and the military unable to handle an embarrassment and the public just out for a jones. Contrary to military oversimplifications, things aren't black and white.
If Custer had taken the attack and told Reno to support from behind, but Reno had a better idea and ran north and was later wiped out, Custer surviving, can't we all imagine how Custerphiles would pat (no pun) that all into shape? If Tillman had made the perhaps understandable error and killed his buds by mistake, how would that play out?
It's also interesting that Tillman wasn't a Bushie, disagreed with the Iraq War, and read Noam Chomsky without being a communist or a traitor. Although, to some here, that's impossible.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on September 26 2005 2:29:59 PM
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2005 : 3:12:35 PM
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If Tillman had made the perhaps understandable error and killed his buds by mistake, how would that play out?
There was a time when the next of kin got no more than a telegram regreting the lost.
Personally I think the epitaph killed in actionsays it all.I mean what more is necessary? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2005 : 4:07:08 PM
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| For an epitaph, nothing. In order to prevent it happening unnecessarily again, you need the truth in the record, ID the mistake, and fix it. If that means punishing people to accomplish what the knowledge of peers cannot, so be it. But start with the truth, anyway. It's rarely just one person's fault. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - September 27 2005 : 09:57:38 AM
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In order to prevent it happening unnecessarily again, you need the truth in the record,
Sure the military record not in the public domain.
Senator McCain has provided a bedrock to force the military to tell the truth
Are the next of kin entitled to know the details of the death of a loved one?I'm not sure about this but if the truth were made known in relation to casaulties I think it would undermine the concept of war.Perhaps we have to blind ourselves to the horrors of war in order to engage in it. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 27 2005 : 2:37:03 PM
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Wild, are you saying trust a military bureaucracy to fix it? Without public pressure and sunshine, no bureaucracy like socialist militaries fix anything. The soldiers who ratted out Abu Grahib made no headway complaining up the line. They went to the press and internet. In any case, this is a war by executive decision, not a declared war by Congress as our Constitution once demanded.
And yes, you're right, it would and we do. But that's the tension in a democracy/republic: who has the right to withhold information supposedly for the public good, and who defines that good? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - September 27 2005 : 3:00:58 PM
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who has the right to withhold information supposedly for the public good, and who defines that good?
In a democracy we agree to be led.That agreement hands over to the government that decision. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 28 2005 : 2:53:54 PM
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Can't decide if this is a distinction without a difference, but I'd say in a democracy we agree to lead ourselves, and be responsible for our actions, and as a republic we elect reps to speak for us. The government IS us, though.
We can't pretend we're not responsible and don't know, and entrust a government with criteria for its own safety and perpetuity different from ours, although that happens all the time, I'd guess. And we need and have a right to the info, I'd say. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - September 28 2005 : 6:58:54 PM
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The government IS us, though.
It might be nice to think so but in reality Pepsi and Coca who probably own Haliburton have much more influence.What you vote for is the choice the captains and kings of industry give you.
We can't pretend we're not responsible and don't know, and entrust a government with criteria for its own safety and perpetuity different from ours, although that happens all the time, I'd guess. And we need and have a right to the info, I'd say.
The artic ice north and south is rapidly disappearing.We will be under water within 50 years.I don't know if you noticed but information on this is being manipulated to make it acceptable.
You use the term "ours"."Ours" does not exist there is just the government and the individual and the individual is powerless.
I hope I'm not frightening you.Sleep well. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 01 2006 : 01:39:07 AM
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quote:
The artic ice north and south is rapidly disappearing.We will be under water within 50 years.I don't know if you noticed but information on this is being manipulated to make it acceptable.
You use the term "ours"."Ours" does not exist there is just the government and the individual and the individual is powerless.
I hope I'm not frightening you.Sleep well.
Happy New Year Wild and I will sleep well. Flagstaff is at 7,000 feet. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 01 2006 : 10:57:47 AM
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I see the lack of oxygen is taking effect.
Many happy returns |
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Military CYA Then and Now
