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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - November 24 2005 : 10:39:49 AM
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If you check the rolls of the 7th you will find listed there trumpeters,farriers and saddliers but not a single armorer.In other words they had noone qualified to zero and adjust their weapons.
Does anyone know if the foresight of the carbine was adjustable?
Smcf thanks for the tip on Horslips must watch out for it.
Have a great Thanksgiving everyone.
MRW If you are still looking in, is Thanksgiving celebrated by the Indians? |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - November 24 2005 : 7:14:57 PM
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| OK,DC I guess we have differences of opinion. I don't consider 500-600 yards to be within carbine range. As I read it there was one Indian on Sharpshooter with a weapon capable of making hits on Reno Hill.Sgt Ryan apparently had the only weapon capable of accurate return fire. I don't consider the 7th troopers to be adequately trained as marksmen. I think they received some training. Otherwise , how would the better marksmen have been known? Pleasonton was fiveteen years older than Custer and was a major general when Custer made brigadeer. I thought my remark of deer hunters making hits without practice was revelant.I didn't think your opinion of hunters in general had anything to do with the subject. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 25 2005 : 11:55:00 AM
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Just so I'm clear here, my target in all this is not the ranges, the caliber, the weapon at all, the skill or experiences of fellow posters, but rather the opinion that discussion in detail of the ranges, calibers, weapons and all that is remotely relevant to what happened.
I've been consistent in denigrating (cheerfully admitted) these sorts of threads because I see them as dishonest in intent and, often, in the details and conclusions. Rather, I see them, with reason and evidence, as an attempt to overwhelm participants in recondite detail in order to intimidate and conform an opinion by implication if not evidence - that Custer was not to blame under any and all circumstances - from the posters. It's an attempt to conform a vision I think mythical and untrue of the West and history. It's balderdash.
"Seekers of truth" they are not, although I've been lectured here on their sterling qualities. They've long held their conclusions, and they feel it elevates themselves to publicly hold them. So they have emotional need to buttress them, often with several user names from the same machine.
I believe I've also been consistent that the 7th - as a whole, as a unit - wasn't remotely trained well enough with their weapons. And if the Sioux didn't run and a prolonged firefight ensued, they were whatever cliche you want to use for dead ducks. I further think it impossible that the officers of experience didn't know this, and that it had to affect their decisions once the prospect of Indians Not Running But Enthusiastically Coming On was sorrowfully drawn to their attention. I'm sure it affected Reno's and Benteen's decisions. I cannot believe it wouldn't affect Custer's, and this in aggregate with the crappy ground he ended up on suggests to me that he wasn't at the helm, either by wound or by onslaught.
All this threatens the last stand, a cherished myth, if it were seen the LSH group just fell when they reached the crest and were met with unexpected fire. There is no physical evidence that suggests Last Stand over that more prosaic fate, and I've tried to show how long established literary convention - well known to officers and men if not to Soldier of Fortune enthusiasts - would channel their presentations of what happened to the public far more than fact. This was accepted procedure back then.
You're correct, Prolar, 500 yards or so isn't in reasonable range of the carbines; except for long range pattern firing. Think back, and not far, to all the discussions of long range fire, its purpose, its history on several continents, and that, harump, soldiers - harump, harump - are trained in this procedure. Civvies wouldn't understand - harump. So.....here at Sharpshooter, a wonderful example of a constructive need of volley long range fire to hit in an broad area. Well within range of bullets and the carbines' sights. Not even attempted. Get the guy with the telescopic sight.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on November 25 2005 11:57:26 AM |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - November 25 2005 : 12:35:17 PM
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| No comment - lost for words. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 25 2005 : 8:01:18 PM
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DC
A word to the wise.If you continue to turn verbal somersaults you will vanish up your own literary arse.
Your post is a prime example of a poster taking leave of his senses and giving full rein to a compulshion to string words together regardless of meaning.
The first half of your post denegrates those of us who have discussed in great detail [supported by no little research]all aspects of this battle.You declare it to be irrelevant and a fraud.But then lo and behold you suggest that the sum total of that detail amounted to a significant influence on the decision making of the 7th's officers.
Your problem DC is that you cannot distinguish between Custerphiles and those with a military background. |
Edited by - wILD I on November 25 2005 8:02:45 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 25 2005 : 8:57:59 PM
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There's nothing there I haven't said before, generally several times over the last few years and on this forum.
Wild, you misread. It makes perfect sense (many may not agree with it) although your attempted syllogism between the 7th's officers' sure knowledge of their unit's actual combat qualities and the periodic efforts on this board by some to pretend those qualities were higher (by threads like this) does not. I hardly ever mistake Custerphiles with those of military background because there's barely any overlap at all and, in my experience, most of the few who qualify were never in combat. There are exceptions, obviously and sometimes famously, but not many. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 26 2005 : 4:13:51 PM
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A more polite reply than I possibly deserve DC.Perhaps the thanksgiving sherry mellowed an old Scottish curmudgeon?
Just so I'm clear here, my target in all this is the opinion that discussion in detail of the ranges, calibers, weapons and all that is remotely relevant to what happened.
How can you possibly discuss the progress of a battle without examining the armaments of the opposing forces or the organisation or the leadership?A detail which you have made much of in discussions here is the very odd duel command system the 7TH boasted----family v military.
No DC not your best work atall atall.Must try harder. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 26 2005 : 6:54:58 PM
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You can discuss the armament, but I find it hard to conclude it relevant one way or the other. And, in fact, it has never been proven relevant, although the foaming intent is there. Although we don't know if many Indians had Winchesters, as soon as casings were uncovered (when placed there and by who: unknown) the Indians suddenly were "better armed" than the soldiers. Some Indians had no firearms at all. Further, Wild, "and all that" clearly refers to genre of topics regarding firearms and munition; not leadership and organization.
The soldiers (in general)were poor shots and even with repeaters would still be, and also likely to fire off their ammo pointlessly and quicker. If a highly trained elite unit like the Iron Brigade had M1's during the Civil War, yes that would have made a difference. If they had a slightly different type of musket? No.
I agree the organization and leadership is important - far more so - and I didn't make light of that. I am puzzled why you say I have. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 09:49:00 AM
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All's quiet along the Little Big Horn.
As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain,
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.
You can discuss the armament, but I find it hard to conclude it relevant one way or the other.
You can trace a line from your Brazlian aerial friends right through to poor markmanship to shoddy equipment to confusing command and control to an incompetant adjutant sending an incoherent message and thus depriving Custer of at least 3 extra troops at a vital stage of the battle. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 10:45:27 AM
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| Are we to believe that none of the 7th's officer knew how poor of shots the average trooper was or did something else cause them to be less than expected. Why would Reno have dismounted and formed a skirmish line if he didn't think his troopers could hit the Indians. If the Indians were rushing him and coming in close to his troopers the 7th had the ideal conditions for the Springfield carbine. With say 90 troopers firing at close range at a rate of 7 to 10 rounds per minute there should have been substantial injuries and fatalities. The same could be said of the troopers with Custer. Yet later in the battle Benteen was able to effectively repulse the Indians with the same troopers and carbines. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 10:48:17 AM
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Wild,
And at the going down of the sun, and in the morning, you'll still be trying to vague up the waters so you won't be held responsible for what you've posted.
You still don't get or understand the Brazilian butterfly metaphor, and although one could trace such a line as you suggest, I have not. It's a valid point, and you should make it, but don't burden me with it. In any case, my chosen point here - that discussion of and suppositions about the 7th's firearms and any plausible conclusion about them - are pointless and irrelevant to Custer's fate. They can only serve as an illustrative example of the training and skill of the soldiers who carried them, and the officers' responsible for that training and their skill. My theory is, in aggregate with other related problems of command, the 7th paid the price.
AZ
Should have been more Indian casualties if the soldiers were adequate to the task, we have no idea of the fire rate except that it was too fast and undisciplined.
You make it sound as if Reno had myriad choices and he chose the one that best displayed his power. He took the one that risked least defeat. His options: 1.) to continue the drive into a huge village of Indians not running and already on him, 2.)to turn his back on those Indians and retreat or 3.)take a position till Custer's support, surely soon to appear, did. He took the logical step, which makes sense: he'd be absorbing much Indian energy at far less risk.
I don't know why they didn't ride over Reno Hill later, and it may be that the Sioux were done with battle, having had two large ones within two weeks. That doesn't convince me, but I don't know. It does seem odd, I agree, for I certainly think they could have. Maybe the original story about Terry's approach from the north was the straw that did it, in conjunction with their sketchy command. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on November 27 2005 11:04:40 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 12:47:28 PM
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In any case, my chosen point here - that discussion of and suppositions about the 7th's firearms and any plausible conclusion about them - are pointless and irrelevant to Custer's fate.
And what a blinkered and narrow case you make DC.Good marksmanship would have bought time.Firepower equals time .Time for the troops on Weir Point to observe a battle in progress and then what? Change any element and you influence the course of the battle.Actions do not occur in a vacume and all are relevant.
AZ
Yet later in the battle Benteen was able to effectively repulse the Indians with the same troopers and carbines.
Well from an Indian point of view the danger had passed.There was lots of loot and Whiskey to be had and a night of celebration to be got through.Benteen could wait. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 12:57:09 PM
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| DC I believe if Reno knew his troopers were poor marksmen he had only one choice."2.)to turn his back on those Indians and retreat" He then could seek cover and use it to his advantage. Your third choice would only be relevant if Reno had a reasonable belief in his troopers marksmanship. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 12:59:39 PM
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"...all are relevant" in the Brazilian butterfly sense, yes. We've been through this, and you still don't get it.
And obviously, good marksmanship would have affected things. But if you'd read, you'd note that my complaint isn't about discussion on marksmanship or training but discussion on the trivia of the firearms and the ammo. Why are you stringing this out, Wild? Read the initial post in this thread - who's never reappeared under that name - and apply what I've said to that. He had a goal in mind.
AZ is trying to imply - I think, apologies if wrong - that the fact Reno took his men to a firing line disproves the assumption that the officers thought the troopers, well, stunk as shooters. And, further, to damn Reno by comparing his results with Benteen's on the Hill, which I don't think either fair or really comparable and probably not due to superb officer command but to the focus that comes from being surrounded and doomed if the line breaks. Or, more likely, the afternoon summer camp activity attitude the Sioux seemed to bring to that firefight. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 1:24:24 PM
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| DC My actual thoughts are that the officers believed the troopers had some basic marksmanship skills. I also believe that the senior officers were all adequate. I believe the shock to the troopers was that a large number of Indians would want to fight which lead to loss of lives by the 7th. The troopers eventually had faced those facts so when up on the hill and given a choice to follow Benteen's direction they did so. I did not mean to infer that Reno could not have done the same thing only that troopers with the same armament were effective then. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 2:07:48 PM
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You could well be correct. I don't know. I cannot believe that officers had a high opinion of their men's shooting, and mere basic marksmanship wasn't really a solution to the need at LBH, and I think all through the Indian wars there isn't much evidence of great skill by the average soldier. That $1 million figure by Lincoln keeps coming to mind.
I don't think the Reno Hill issue was really pressed by the Sioux at all, and certainly no series of organized feint attacks or even just a ride over to be done with it. It is odd, when you think about it. That the soldiers were able to get water at all is demonstrative of the Sioux's "eh" attitude, I think. I'm also quite sure that wasn't the image those there had. Quite the opposite, and understandable.
I admire Benteen, large warts and all. He was a bitter fathead, racist and ignorant by our standards, but I do think that given any realistic or even borderline opportunity to 'save' Custer, he surely would have. It would give him all the satisfaction and truly annoy Custer and what could be better for Benteen, professionally and personally? Same for Reno, who was always on the make. Custer couldn't have BS'd his way out of that one.
Again I ask: how many usable mounts did Reno have at the time Benteen arrived? How many wounded men currently in their care? How many mounted, unwounded, and ready troops could Reno provide for a renewed offensive? How many spare horses with the train (some, Martin got one). We don't seem to know. That strikes me as far more important than "if only they had sabers" threads. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 4:20:13 PM
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In any case, my chosen point here - that discussion of and suppositions about the 7th's firearms and any plausible conclusion about them - are pointless and irrelevant to Custer's fate.
And what a blinkered and narrow case you make DC.Good marksmanship would have bought time.Firepower equals time .Time for the troops on Weir Point to observe a battle in progress and then what? Change any element and you influence the course of the battle.Actions do not occur in a vacume and all are relevant.[/quote]
Certainly the men of the 7th were not very proficient marksmen. However, the limitations of the '73 carbine -- especially the sights -- made shooting moving, or pop-up targets very difficult even for experts.
quote:
Yet later in the battle Benteen was able to effectively repulse the Indians with the same troopers and carbines.
Well from an Indian point of view the danger had passed.There was lots of loot and Whiskey to be had and a night of celebration to be got through.Benteen could wait.
[/quote]
Let's remember that Benteen had under his effective command the remnants of Reno's command, his own untouched 3 companies, McDougal's B Company which had been escorting the pack train, and the equivallent of two more companies of men assigned to handle the pack train (one sergeant and six privates from each of the 12 companies of the regiment.)
He had a larger force than Custer, and had time to organize the position and entrench to some degree. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 4:59:32 PM
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Even if true, Mr. Humphreys, if they had been given any other weapon but the same amount of training and practice ammo, whither the dif? (Did the Army practice with quickly moving targets, anyway? Don't know, suspect not, and wouldn't that have been a valuable skill in Indian warfare...) If the 7th all had Winchesters, they wouldn't be any better shots and with a lesser range and Reno might actually have run out of ammo with no more enemy dead.
That's why I think it a straw dog. If you discover a design flaw in your weapon and/or ammo two years after issue that occurs when five shots are fired more or less rapidly (I don't claim a design flaw, but others have. I think it was poor training if not mere panic and confusion.).....that's a bigger problem than your claimed defective weapon. A poor workman blames his tools. Indeed. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 5:10:53 PM
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You would find more determination and aggression among the ladies on black Friday than was exhibited by Benteen on his excursion to Weir point.It is hard to envisage a more forlorn sight---we are poor little lambs who have lost our way baa baa baa.And it was seen off by a few screaming Indians.
We have defended [myself included]Benteen by saying he could not leave Reno in the state he had found him in and you ask DC how many usable mounts did Reno have at the time Benteen arrived? How many wounded men currently in their care?Well the halfhearted advance to weir point endangered those wounded and dismounted men.It was a worse option than an offensive move forward. Benteen had 233 fit and "fresh" men and mounts.All the Indians would have known was that yet another force had arrived.They scarptered when Terry approached.Would not a more forceful showing by Benteen have had the same effect? |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 5:14:18 PM
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quote:
Even if true, Mr. Humphreys, if they had been given any other weapon but the same amount of training and practice ammo, whither the dif? (Did the Army practice with quickly moving targets, anyway? Don't know, suspect not, and wouldn't that have been a valuable skill in Indian warfare...) If the 7th all had Winchesters, they wouldn't be any better shots and with a lesser range and Reno might actually have run out of ammo with no more enemy dead.
No, the Army did not practice with moving or pop-up targets in those days.
The Winchester of the period had sights only a little better than the Springfield.
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That's why I think it a straw dog. If you discover a design flaw in your weapon and/or ammo two years after issue that occurs when five shots are fired more or less rapidly (I don't claim a design flaw, but others have. I think it was poor training if not mere panic and confusion.).....that's a bigger problem than your claimed defective weapon. A poor workman blames his tools. Indeed.
There is a strong tendency to consider all military problems technical, when they are upon examination mostly tactical. Custer lost not because his weapons were inadequate, nor even because his men were inexpert in their use. He lost because with 12 companies, he failed to get more than three into action at any one time. |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 5:23:29 PM
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quote:
Well the halfhearted advance to weir point endangered those wounded and dismounted men.It was a worse option than an offensive move forward.
It was an offensive move forward that got Custer wiped out. A prudent reconnaissance in force was indicated, not a head-long charge into the unknown.
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Benteen had 233 fit and "fresh" men and mounts.All the Indians would have known was that yet another force had arrived.They scarptered when Terry approached.Would not a more forceful showing by Benteen have had the same effect?
No -- for two reasons.
1. The indians had just wiped out a force of about that same size, and were flushed with victory.
2. The indians had beseiged Reno and Benteen briefly before -- and did so again after the advance to Weir Point.
The force under Benteen and Reno survived only because they had time to prepare a defensive position and do some entrunching. A fight in the open would have spelled doom to every man with Benteen and Reno. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 27 2005 : 7:58:02 PM
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Wild,
We don't know that Terry scared them off. It's an assumption, but not without reason. Weir's-Benteen's advance was not 'seen off' by a few Indians, all accounts agree a huge number were approaching. Being, apparently, smarter than Custer's group and not wanting to be caught on high ground with no cover at Weir Point, they zooted back to Reno Hill.
Mr. Humphreys:
Custer had five companies and they were involved at the same time, weren't they? Towards the end, anyway. Regardless, I agree with that totally except we don't know if 12 companies would have done it either. Still, that was probably the far better and perhaps the right decision.
I'm not aware Reno and Benteen were under attack together before the move to Weir Point other than a few snipers. They weren't surrounded, at any rate. The train was not under attack when it arrived, was it?
I suspect when Weir went off without/against orders, Benteen followed mostly because he was trying to prevent the complete breakdown that Weir's move threatened to do PLUS keeping the hotheads on a leash. I'd be surprised if he was envisioning the possibility of an offense at that point, seeing Reno's group and knowing how shot his own were compared to what was needed. He went out of his way to defer to and consult with Reno and talk with others throughout, holding the structure together and the men rallied around him emotionally because he made himself available for it. He was a natural leader, I think, and he knew how to radiate the needed calm and competence. Weir was interested in being in on the glory of victory, not rescuing Custer when he lurched off, I'd think, and this was true till he saw the huge numbers of Indians heading his way. (All the supposed fear for Custer appears later, for the most part). At that point heroic Weir disappears from the narrative till he's quoted seeing the dead and then when he got drunk and fell into a stream on the way back. No stories about him on the hill, I don't think. Certainly no acts of particular merit. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 28 2005 : 09:29:19 AM
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quote:
Custer had five companies and they were involved at the same time, weren't they? Towards the end, anyway. Regardless, I agree with that totally except we don't know if 12 companies would have done it either. Still, that was probably the far better and perhaps the right decision.
The bodies at the Custer field lie in three or four groups -- two of them being organized groups, one of three and the other of two companies. The separation between them and the formation 9about a half mile) indicates they were not part of a coordinated action.
In addition, the evidence of the cartridge cases backs it up. A few .45-70 cases found in one company area match cases found in another, allowing us to trace the man who fired them -- they show one company (Calhoon's) was overrun, the other (Keough's) still unengaged, and our man managed to escape from the first position to reach the second.
Yates, Smith and T.W. Custer may have fought together in some kind of a coherent defense (but there is no depth to their positions.)
quote:
I'm not aware Reno and Benteen were under attack together before the move to Weir Point other than a few snipers. They weren't surrounded, at any rate. The train was not under attack when it arrived, was it?
Benteen says Reno was under attack when he came up. The indians soon drew off, and after reorganizing, there was debate as to what to do. Weir led -- apparently without orders.
In any case, the indians had (albeit unknown to Benteen and Reno) just annihilated a force just about equal to that which Benteen and Reno had -- and they were coming back.
The proper course of action was to seek a strong defensive position -- Reno's ridge was known to them, partially entrenched, and as good as anything they could reach.
They were beseiged there and took casualties -- proof that they could not have won a stand-up fight. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 28 2005 : 09:59:16 AM
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Ah-HAH! Sorry, good coffee this AM.
Where are you finding indications of .45/70? Not .45/55, but .45/70? By match, do you mean to the specific weapon? How do you know this weapon wasn't fired once by a soldier, who was immediately killed, and then the weapon used by a Cheyenne puttering around the field blowing holes in the dead? Further, how do you know these cartridges appeared in the battle at all, and not, say, by Wooden Leg the next December, who took cartridges found on the field, or any of the other Sioux or Cheyenne that came upon soldier dead through the years? Or was fired in a salute by later passing soldiers? Or, less likely, perhaps, was simply salted so VIP vistors would find casings as souverniers after travelling so far, and the field had been pillaged so well?
More important, how can one tell, after more than a century, the difference between a .45/70 and a .45/55 if the wadding marks are gone? Same casing, we're told.
I'm being obnoxious, I know, but these are the sorts of "for sure" things that set me off in principle. I can't rid my own thinking of them, so it's hypocritical of me to make too big a deal of others'. But, good coffee. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 28 2005 : 10:21:28 AM
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quote:
Where are you finding indications of .45/70? Not .45/55, but .45/70?
You can't tell the difference -- but the issue is the location and match to a specific carbine, not the powder charge.
quote:
By match, do you mean to the specific weapon?
Yes. The cases found on the field were matched to specific weapons, or to each other, if the weapon could not be found. Rock Island Arsenal has in its collection four weapons that have been there since 1909 and are listed in the catalog as "captured from the Sioux or Cheyenne." These rifles (none of them '73 Springfield carbines) have been forensically matched to cartridge cases found at the Little Bighorn.
quote:
How do you know this weapon wasn't fired once by a soldier, who was immediately killed, and then the weapon used by a Cheyenne puttering around the field blowing holes in the dead?
The coincidence would be too great to bear scrutiny. The pattern of cases clearly indicates a single person moving around the battlefield. (The Rock Island rifles, by the way, have shown the same pattern -- and we know they weren't fired by soldiers.)
quote:
Further, how do you know these cartridges appeared in the battle at all, and not, say, by Wooden Leg the next December, who took cartridges found on the field, or any of the other Sioux or Cheyenne that came upon soldier dead through the years?
Too great a coincidence to bear scrutiny. Occam's Razor applies here in spades.
quote:
Or was fired in a salute by later passing soldiers?
Then it would not match cases found elsewhere fired from the same carbine. And we know of no such salute being fired.
quote:
Or, less likely, perhaps, was simply salted so VIP vistors would find casings as souverniers after travelling so far, and the field had been pillaged so well?
After the prairie fire of a decade or so ago, some 1,700 fired .45-70 (or .45-55 if you prefer) cases were found and subjected to forensic examination. A large quantity of other cases were found, as well, along with other artifacts.
During the search that resulted, a skull was found, and forensically identified as a sergeant in the 7th -- lying there for over 100 years.
quote:
More important, how can one tell, after more than a century, the difference between a .45/70 and a .45/55 if the wadding marks are gone? Same casing, we're told.
It doesn't matter -- how would finding a .45-70 give us a different movement pattern, as opposed to finding a .45-55 in the exact same spot?
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Springfield Carbine
