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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - November 21 2005 : 3:43:29 PM
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quote:
You may be right and probably are about smokless powder, but black powder burns slower.
It burns fast enough to consume all the powder in the first few inches. You will get a lot of solids out the muzzle (40% of the combustion products are solid) and that is sometimes mistaken for unburned powder. But the carbine will burn a 70 grain charge completely. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 21 2005 : 7:19:34 PM
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When black powder burns it produces approximately 56% solid product, 43% gaseous product, and about 1% water. It does leave a hydrophilic residue and an anhydrous caustic substance in the barrel. It is classified as a low explosive and does not generate high pressures usually.
I believe more to the point is that the short barrel carbine can not take advantage of the increased powder charge like a longer barreled rifle. Even with the 70 grains its ballistics at any distance is pathetic. If one sights it in for 300 yards it would shoot 33 inches high at 100 yards and 35 inches high at 200 yards. At 400 yards it would shoot 77 inches low and at 1000 yards it would shoot 1700 inches low.
Does anyone know if there was an ordered or preferred zero to be set for the carbine?
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - November 21 2005 : 8:36:21 PM
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Vern and Ranger: I appreciate the info. I don't have enough knowledge of blackpowder to argue the point, but it seems to me that whether it exits as a solid or unburned gas, the 70 gr charge is not being burned in 22in barrel.
Wild I: I see nothing wrong with your theory, but as a practical matter the maximum velocity loads are seldom if ever the most accurate. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 21 2005 : 9:08:31 PM
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With the 55 grain, and the carbine set, for some reason, at 300 yards, what would the accuracy be? Just so we can understand how different the cartridges performed. And what is this info based upon? May I assume it's first hand, and not a pen and paper calculation?
If one sighted it correctly for the distances attempted, how good was it?
And how much live ammo with such a weapon would a soldier have to burn through to become good with it, say up to a realistic 250 yards? And did the 7th or the Army do it? Beyond that, I don't know if the long distance stuff is relevant, really. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 21 2005 : 9:29:52 PM
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quote:
I appreciate the info. I don't have enough knowledge of blackpowder to argue the point, but it seems to me that whether it exits as a solid or unburned gas, the 70 gr charge is not being burned in 22in barrel.
The issue is not the burning of the powder, but the expansion of the powder gasses. When the bullet exits the carbine muzzle, the gasses are still expanding rapidly, and would accelerate the bullet significantly if there were more barrel.
There are two limiting factors to the carbine's effective range. The first is the trajectory -- which is enough at any range much over 200 yards or so to make misjudgement of the range result in a miss.
The second, and most important, however is the sights. US weapons right up until the M1917 Enfield, had abominable sights -- very fine and best adapted to leisurely fire on a target range, and not to a fast-moving combat action. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 21 2005 : 10:35:47 PM
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| The .45-55-405 in a carbine has approximately 1100 FPS velocity. The deviation at 100 yards is about 1.7 inches and at 900 yards it has about a 26 inch deviation. Zeroing for a certain distance , for example 300 yards, in the carbine does not change the deviation around the point of impact. The deviation is more like the group size around the intended point of impact which is determined by the proper use of the sights. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 21 2005 : 11:06:00 PM
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But what I'm wondering is, if you weld a carbine at a rifle range to an immoveable object at a five mile indoor firing range, so that there is no meaningful variable except the cartridge, and with the sights set and the weapon aimed at a target 100 yards down range, and from a Custer type Springfield carbine you fire a 55 load and a 70 load of the sort his men had a choice from, what is the difference in their passage till the bullets drop to the ground? Oh, and what is the difference at the target?
Not knowing the terminology here, is the assumption that at 100 yards the bullet can wander 1.7 inches from the center aimed at, in a circle of 3.4 inches diameter? Or is that the radius or am I totally wrong? I'd think that a remarkable weapon for the time either way, given how short the barrel was. And the 70 grain would have at 100 yards what deviation from the same weapon?
And how much live ammo with such a weapon would a soldier have to burn through to become good with it, say up to a realistic 250 yards? And did the 7th or the Army do it? Beyond that, I don't know if the long distance stuff is relevant, really. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 12:12:35 AM
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Dark Cloud your are correct on the deviation. It would produce a group of 3.4 inches at 100 yards. This is true of both 55 and 70 grain loads.
For path of 405gr bullet sighted zero at 150 yds in inches :
...... muzzle 50yds 100yds 150yds 200yds 250yds
70 gr. -1.5 . , 5.1 . , 5.8 . , 0.0 . , -13.1 .,-34.0
55 gr. -1.5 . , 7.1 . , 7.8 . , 0.0 . , -16.9 .,-43.4
Hope this helps. I would find it hard to believe that the 7th would have had enough practice to deliver hits consistently beyond 200 yards. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on November 22 2005 12:25:13 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 01:53:03 AM
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Well, thank you, but I'm more confused than ever. A bullet produces a group? All bullets fired from the welded gun would fall in that circle with a diamater or a radius of 3.4 inches? Where in the world is this info coming from?
In the latest, AT THE MUZZLE the bullet is -1.5 inches?
We have evidentiary indication the 7th had monthly allocations allowed (not necessarily used)(or actually available)of 15 cartridges, and these split between pistol and carbine, and the carbine can have two cartridge types. In order for the average joe soldier to become decent with his weapons, is this remotely adequate for accuracy at any distance? I doubt it. And this at stationary targets not returning fire. The officers had to know that if it ever came down to the marksmanship and shooting skill of the 7th, they were one cooked goose. I'd think Reno and Benteen both must have factored that in. If the enemy didn't run, but stayed and fought, the 7th was toast. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 04:34:46 AM
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| So we can take it that the troopers on the ridge were hardly firing to cover any retreat from the MTC ford, then. What's just as important is that if the firing heard from Reno Hill was indicitive of an engagement with the Indians, the troopers must have been close to the range of the Indian guns - which would put it at 200 yards max. |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 05:09:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Well, thank you, but I'm more confused than ever. A bullet produces a group? All bullets fired from the welded gun would fall in that circle with a diamater or a radius of 3.4 inches? Where in the world is this info coming from?
Well if AZRanger quoted from this page
http://members.tripod.com/Cyberdutch/tech.html
Then its a radius of 1.7 inches which sounds a little too good to me. In modern terms thats 1.7 MOA or close enough.
quote:
In the latest, AT THE MUZZLE the bullet is -1.5 inches?
The data that AZRanger posted is for the trajectory of the bullet in regards to the sights zeroed at 150 yards, meaning as the bullet exits the barrel it is 1.5 inches beneath the sights, at 50 yards, its 5.1 inches above the sight plane etc. I'm sure you can work out the rest. |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 09:37:47 AM
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Dave you have the correct web page but we disagree on the meaning deviation and how it relates to MOA. A 1.7 deviation at 100 yards I believe is the radius from desired point of impact therefore it would be 3.4 MOA which is believable. The best 3 shot group I have fired from my trapdoor Springfield .45-70 was just under 3" or 3 MOA. For comparison my .30-06 shoots under 1 MOA which at 100 yards is a 3/4" group.1 MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards
A bullet would follow the path as described in numerous manuals under ballistic tables, I used Speer. If you fired more than one bullet they would follow the path but deviate somewhat from each other. That deviation which is harder to find but at least one source was found for the .45-55 and.45-70 refers to the preciseness of repeated firings. Accuracy would require the shooter to identify his target, know the range of his target,and know what his sights were set for, and then under the stress put these together squeezing the trigger and maintaining sight alignment either at stationary or moving targets.
Again Dave is correct on the drop at the muzzle. The sights sit above the barrel so even if you weld your gun solid and look down the sights at a 100 yard target or any range for that matter then you took a piece of paper and put it in front of the muzzle the bullet would pierce the paper approximately 1.5 inches below the line of sight.
My guess would be that if 7th was shooting at more than 200 yards there would be a lot of bullets hitting the ground in front of the intended targets. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 09:43:06 AM
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quote:
Well, thank you, but I'm more confused than ever. A bullet produces a group?
Yes -- assuming the gun has any accuracy at all, the shots fired at the same target will fall into a more-or-less circular pattern. This is called a group.
The standard measure of accuracy is the distance between the middle of bullet holes fartherest apart at 100 yards. There are, of course, other ways to measure (such as mean radius) and other distances.
quote:
All bullets fired from the welded gun would fall in that circle with a diamater or a radius of 3.4 inches? Where in the world is this info coming from?
Hopefully -- a 3.4 inch group at 100 yards is about what you could expect from a clean '73 carbine.
quote:
In the latest, AT THE MUZZLE the bullet is -1.5 inches?
The sights are mounted on top of the bore -- the assumption is that the distance from the line of sight (established by the alignment of front and rear sights) and the centerline of the bore is about 1.5 inches. This is the standard assumption for a rifle with metallic sights. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 11:02:49 AM
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and the carbine can have two cartridge types.
Sure DC if it is a shoddy incompetant outfit such as the 7TH.You cannot zero a weapon for accuracy using two different loads.The fact that the ordnance and quatermaster system allowed for mixed cartridges to be used on active service is indicative of what a s**** unit the 7th was. |
Edited by - wILD I on November 22 2005 11:05:57 AM |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 11:27:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
Dave you have the correct web page but we disagree on the meaning deviation and how it relates to MOA. A 1.7 deviation at 100 yards I believe is the radius from desired point of impact therefore it would be 3.4 MOA which is believable. The best 3 shot group I have fired from my trapdoor Springfield .45-70 was just under 3" or 3 MOA. For comparison my .30-06 shoots under 1 MOA which at 100 yards is a 3/4" group.1 MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards
Mea Culpa AZRanger.
I'm feeling pretty embarrassed now, yes its 3.4 MOA of course. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 11:47:50 AM
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Okay, thanks for the info. Is it relevant to the issue at hand, however?
I want to hear from each of you how much practice would have been necessary to get to where such deviations at various ranges meant anything at all to the 7th's soldiers on June 25, 1876.
We civvies understand that everyone's different, and there isn't a meaningful 'average' soldier to discuss that day, but would fifteen firings a month, divided between handgun and carbine, provide a regiment that was more than a joke for marksmanship? Are we to believe that Godfrey ever had a conversation with a soldier about his deviation pattern at 200 yards? WHAT pattern with that paltry amount to shoot?
Not to be rude, although I'm afraid that's inevitable, but does ANY of this make ANY difference to the LBH? Could the majority of the soldiers hit another human standing at a mere 75 yards? I think there is reason to doubt, frankly. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 12:11:44 PM
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I want to hear from each of you how much practice would have been necessary to get to where such deviations at various ranges meant anything at all to the 7th's soldiers on June 25, 1876.
US Grant in his memoirs tells us that as a company commander he had the men coming off guard duty fire their muskets at a target (to unload them.) He sponsored competition between the men as to who could fire the best shot. And, he tells us, this greatly improved their marksmanship.
But as a general, he did little or nothing to improve marksmanship among his troops. Not until 1877, when the National Rifle Association was formed by former Civil War officers, did the Army begin to take marksmanship seriously.
Modern soldiers are allocated an order of magnitude more ammunition than the Army of the 1870s.
Your comment that the average soldier probably couldn't hit a standing man beyond 75 yards might be accurate -- although there were also some fine shots in the 7th. |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 12:18:11 PM
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| The whole point to this is to get a picture of what may have been realistically happening on the Custer field, from the point of view of the soldiers on Reno Hill when they heard the firing, given what the Gray timelines tell us, our (differing) perspectives of where the Custer troops and Indians were and the capabilities of the soldiers and their weapons. |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 12:45:24 PM
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The whole point to this is to get a picture of what may have been realistically happening on the Custer field, from the point of view of the soldiers on Reno Hill when they heard the firing, given what the Gray timelines tell us, our (differing) perspectives of where the Custer troops and Indians were and the capabilities of the soldiers and their weapons.
From Reno's entrenchment to the Custer site is roughly five miles. There is no possibility Custer could have been supported from Reno's position, nor that Reno and Benteen could have known what was happening to Custer. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 1:22:10 PM
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It's four miles and a hundred feet, I think, as the focussed crow flies, between the two fields, or the monuments. Less than five, though.
My point is that the ammo, the weapon, made next to no difference that day. All the tables and formulas in the world cannot make it so. Given the practice ammo and time spent on it, no other weapon may have made a difference, either. SCMF is trying to convince that any volleys HAD to have been a signal for help, because the Indians would have been too far away for any expectation of damage AND this is reinforced by any opinion that the officers had to know the men stunk as shooters, overall. I don't know why a volley would be so interpreted, or expected to be, and it seems there would have been, if the Indians were so far away, several more attractive and constructive ways to spend the time by whoever fired a volley, if they actually did.
If the soldiers underwent a surprise regarding their weapons' failures that day, that is not proof that those failures damned the 7th, but proof the 7th hadn't trained well enough to be on the field at all with any weapon, since they'd had them two years. And the buck doesn't stop at Reno for that. If the 7th wasn't well trained, that's Custer's baby.
This is a prime example of detail used as a screen. The qualities of the Springfield aren't relevant if the troopers hadn't had the time or ammo to discover them anyway, much less practice to proficiency. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 1:54:32 PM
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but would fifteen firings a month, divided between handgun and carbine, provide a regiment that was more than a joke for marksmanship?
Marksmanship in a cavalry regiment has as much relevance as horsemanship in an infantry regiment. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 3:07:21 PM
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Well, yes and no Wild. If I knew how to ride a horse and was an infantryman. And I needed fast transport, knowing how to ride wouldn't hurt. The same thing for firing a weapon. If they couldn't fire the thing, then what were they doing there?
I have to agree with DC. If one looks at the enlisment records for just the past year, from say August to December of 75, over 1/2 of Custers enlisted men that day came from those recruits. Between August and December of 75, 164 men were recruited. Between January and June of 76, 115 men were recruited. And the sad part about it was that Reno's battalion had the most of these recruits, something like 32 percent of his battalion was green. The second set of Recruits were recruited in a season that was more or less 'off season', and were for all intents and purposes probably not your average farm boy types. |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 3:13:04 PM
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quote:
My point is that the ammo, the weapon, made next to no difference that day. All the tables and formulas in the world cannot make it so. Given the practice ammo and time spent on it, no other weapon may have made a difference, either.
Custer lost the battle. His tactical errors were too numerous to discuss, but they can be summed up as, he failed to synchronize his attack. He suffered defeat in detail, and it was as if he planned it that way. |
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Vern Humphrey
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 3:15:51 PM
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quote:
but would fifteen firings a month, divided between handgun and carbine, provide a regiment that was more than a joke for marksmanship?
Marksmanship in a cavalry regiment has as much relevance as horsemanship in an infantry regiment.
On the 25th of June, 1876, that theory was thoroughly refuted.
In fact, Custer had earlier had a detatchment of picked marksmen in the regiment -- and let that practice lapse. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 4:07:26 PM
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If they couldn't fire the thing, then what were they doing there?
The rifle/carbine is by and large a form of placebo.It creates an illusion among the human sandbags of being able to defend oneself.
Cavalry have only one function on the battlefield and that is to deliver the coup de grace to broken infantry by shock and sabre.
The 7th was a broken down flea bitten unit of little or no military value in a period of transition sent out on a mission which really called for a specialized elite unit.Rather like sending the local sherrif after Hannibal Lecter |
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Springfield Carbine
