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 Battle of the Little Bighorn - 1876
 Custer's Last Stand
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Author Previous Topic: The missing officers-- Topic Next Topic: Fleeing Troopers
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wILD I
Brigadier General


Ireland
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  07:46:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I suspect if you look at the bibliography of those works, you will see "The Washing of the Spears" listed.
Advice on where to find a source is the last thing I expected from a man who knowingly posted a spurious fact.
Acknowledgement of the "error" might just restore your credibility.
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wILD I
Brigadier General


Ireland
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  07:55:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
While being off thread on this Zulu issue I came across this from Private Henry Hook V.C.one of the defenders of R.D..

I need hardly say that we were using Martinis,and fine rifles they were.But we did so much firing that they became hot ,and the brass of the cartridges softened,the result being that the barrels got foul and the cartridge jammed.My own rifle was jammed several times,and I had to work away with the ramrod till I cleared it

Question.Where did the idea come from to place markers?Was the idea to mark the burial sites or as some sort of historical exercise?I don't think there are any other battlefields where the dead were buried where they had fallen.

Edited by - wILD I on December 08 2005 08:06:07 AM
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  1:07:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I suspect if you look at the bibliography of those works, you will see "The Washing of the Spears" listed.
Advice on where to find a source is the last thing I expected from a man who knowingly posted a spurious fact.
Acknowledgement of the "error" might just restore your credibility.


Making personal remarks like that doesn't improve the quality of debate. The C&GSC text ;has a very detailed account of the action.
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  1:10:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Question.Where did the idea come from to place markers?Was the idea to mark the burial sites or as some sort of historical exercise?I don't think there are any other battlefields where the dead were buried where they had fallen.


Markers are always placed on isolated or field burials to facilitate later re-internment. In the case of the Little Bighorn, the number of dead and the number of people and tools available dictated burying the dead where they fell.
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wILD I
Brigadier General


Ireland
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  3:40:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The C&GSC text ;has a very detailed account of the action.Quote the relevant section or acknowledge that you posted spurious information in support of your position.
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  3:59:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
The C&GSC text ;has a very detailed account of the action.Quote the relevant section or acknowledge that you posted spurious information in support of your position.


I've cited the C&GSC text, and that's all I'm required to do.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  7:43:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
First of all, Smith, Yeates and TW Custer's combined front is about 900 yards, not 1300. That's not at all excessive for three companies. A modern infantry company of about that size would be expected to hold up to 1500 meters (1650 yards, or thereabouts.)


Here's what one of the cavalry manuals states:
quote:
if they receive command, prepare to fight—ONFOOT, would instantly dismount, leaving their horses with the numbers 4, who remain mounted, and form a line of skirmishers, with from two to three paces intervals, faced toward the enemy.



two to three paces is not much of an interval between trooper

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  7:47:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
In practice, defensive lines are not built up by placing individuals, but by placing units. The cavalry company of that era had two platoons, and the best approach would be to base the line on platoons, with gaps between platoons covered by fire. Within the platoons, the best approach would be by threes -- with one being the horseholder.


Manual states:

leaving their horses with the numbers 4,

I believe 4 is the horseholder

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  7:51:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
A hundred years earlier, British Infantry prided themselves on firing 5 shots a minute -- with flintlock muzzle loaders! The '73 carbine could be shot faster than that.


Its too bad the cavalry didn't practice with thier carbines like the British. I'll stick with my 4-6 rounds per minute average.

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  8:05:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I fully admit that the battle dynamics you imagine are not the same as those I have seen and experienced. But I point out that Custer fought a real battle, not an imaginary battle.


quote:
An Eyewitness Account by the Lakota Chief Red Horse
All the Sioux watched around the hill on which were the soldiers until a Sioux man came and said many walking soldiers were coming near. The coming of the walking soldiers was the saving of the soldiers on the hill. Sioux can not fight the walking soldiers [infantry], being afraid of them, so the Sioux hurriedly left.



My point is that infantry tactics seemed to have frightened the Indians. If one is highly knowledge in those tactics, it does not imply that it carries over to cavalry tactics and Indian methods of fighting. There are some that remain the same but that does not mean all the tactics and strategies are the same.

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  8:56:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
two to three paces is not much of an interval between trooper



A pace is five feet (step off with the left foot and count each time the right foot strikes the ground.) So that would be around 3 to 5 yards apart -- in a skirmish line. That's an offensive tactic, and as a rule of thumb, frontages in the offense are about one-third that in the defense -- so, if you based your defense on men strung out evenly, they would be around 10 to 15 yards apart.

Of course, you don't do that -- you base the defense on units, and use the gaps between them as killing zones.
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
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Posted - December 08 2005 :  9:03:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:


Manual states:

leaving their horses with the numbers 4,

I believe 4 is the horseholder


You're right -- I stand corrected. US Cavalry did form by fours in that era.
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  9:07:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
My point is that infantry tactics seemed to have frightened the Indians. If one is highly knowledge in those tactics, it does not imply that it carries over to cavalry tactics and Indian methods of fighting. There are some that remain the same but that does not mean all the tactics and strategies are the same.


Infantry and dismounted cavalry tactics were pretty much identical -- the most quoted statement is something like "we don't like to fight them when they dig holes in the ground." Custer's forces had no time to "dig holes in the ground" -- but those on Reno Ridge did manage to scratch out some "scrapes" which stood them in good stead.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  9:26:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can't believe that infantry tactics frightened the Indians. I can't believe you'd think that either. I can't believe anyone would. This is why manuals and prissy military etiquette as a template to lay over these messy fights in the West drive me batty, safe as I am in never having been in the military myself or in a battle, but having great faith in the things that emerge from participants fifty years after. I think this is one of those repeated Truisms that Isn't, like Indians always run and don't attack cavalry if they can avoid it.

From the Indian point of view, fighting a group of soldiers with long range rifles was a lose-lose proposition. One, they could leisurely escape on pony at a brisk walk. One point five, they could pick them there soldiers off at leisure due to infantry's blistering pace, negating lead time concerns, and allowed you to - gasp! - vaguely point the weapon at clumps of barely moving soldiers on the march and had a good chance of hitting them. Two, the soldiers didn't have horses themselves (yes, officers, I know..), so what was the upside to battle even if you went out of your way - and it would have to be - to fight them? Their guns weren't pony friendly, either. Three, in the few times the Sioux fought the Army and the fewer times they fought infantry, I'm willing to bet they associated artillery with walking soldiers more than with cavalry. THAT scared them. It scares the hell out of anyone to be shelled, I'd wager. Scares me just in theory. It's more likely they hadn't read Jane's that month and thought the Gatling guns were Two Bangs. Rather reasonable.

What in the world would scare them about infantry tactics? I'm not sure they thought like that, or had debriefing sessions, or noted things like tactics beyond 'they attack at dawn' and 'we need to actually, physically have lookouts who stay awake and not rely on the Hiawatha Myth of As One With Nature Indian, okay?" Does anyone think they discussed battle lines and arcs of fire and enfilades and planned moves to compensate for infantry tactics, which of course they discussed?

These Indians didn't have much organization, and the bigger their village, the more inert and mob driven they were. They HAD to fight Custer and beat him because it was a firedrill in Unkpapa City. Just review all their stories about I Went Here and the There and put it into a more reasonable visualization with guys just awake slapping on war paint and trying to mount a pony and scorching around and there had to have been a Marx Bros. element to the thing, topped off when the Cheyenne scared everyone parading in soldier clothes on their horses.

But scared of infantry tactics? I'm sorry, no disrespect, but I think that crazy and any Indian quotes to back that up immediately suspect.

Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 08 2005 :  10:50:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DC here is where the statement came from including the text.

quote:
The banks of the Little Bighorn river were high, and the Sioux killed many of the soldiers while crossing. The soldiers on the hill dug up the ground [i.e., made earth-works], and the soldiers and Sioux fought at long range, sometimes the Sioux charging close up. The fight continued at long range until a Sioux man saw the walking soldiers coming. When the walking soldiers came near the Sioux became afraid and ran away.
[TEXT: Garrick Mallery, Picture Writing of the American Indians,
10th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology (1893).]



Do i believe it. I don't know enough about the author or the Indian interviewed making the statement to answer that question. If it were true though then infantry tactics were different. Why either person would make this up in 1893 doesn't make sense to me either.

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 09 2005 :  09:09:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DC As far as manuals go I feel the manuals that were available at the time were very relevant as far as general training, horsemanship, and tactics. Under stress troopers would lose fine motor skills but would be able to do things they had been trained to do. The lack of training would lead to a quicker break down of the appropriate use of tactics. If you want to evaluate what happened you need to know what training, equipment, and tactics were common knowledge among the troopers.

Vern the big difference between cavalry tactics and infantry tactics should be intuitive. The horse has a mind of its own and adheres to fight or flight survival mechanisms unless properly trained. Also you would have to dig a big hole for your horse. (JOKE)

Two years ago I went through the Arizona Mounted Police School, After having horses for work and pleasure for 25 years I was reasonably comfortable with my skill level. I left the school surprised by the lack of knowledge I had and the skills I picked up. We rode in military formations from single files to columns of eight. What surprised me most was how attune my horse was to where I looked and how I felt about my surroundings. As soon as I felt unsure,and I don't mean any obvious to me outward expression, about a training exercise my horse was ready to leave the area.

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 09 2005 :  09:19:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Vern the big difference between cavalry tactics and infantry tactics should be intuitive. The horse has a mind of its own and adheres to fight or flight survival mechanisms unless properly trained. Also you would have to dig a big hole for your horse. (JOKE)



Mounted tactics, yes. But dismounted cavalry fights pretty much as infantry does. In an action like the Little Bighorn, horseholders would control the horses just behind the line. In a more prepared defense, the horses would be held in a more sheltered place.
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 09 2005 :  10:33:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
DC here is where the statement came from including the text.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The banks of the Little Bighorn river were high, and the Sioux killed many of the soldiers while crossing. The soldiers on the hill dug up the ground [i.e., made earth-works], and the soldiers and Sioux fought at long range, sometimes the Sioux charging close up. The fight continued at long range until a Sioux man saw the walking soldiers coming. When the walking soldiers came near the Sioux became afraid and ran away.
[TEXT: Garrick Mallery, Picture Writing of the American Indians,
10th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology (1893).]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do i believe it. I don't know enough about the author or the Indian interviewed making the statement to answer that question. If it were true though then infantry tactics were different. Why either person would make this up in 1893 doesn't make sense to me either.


This refers to the Reno fight -- the killing while retreating across the river and the later seige of Reno's Ridge.

Amos Bad Heart Bull quotes or papaphrases his father when he says the Sioux don't like to fight when the soldiers dig holes in the ground -- referring to Gibbon's infantry.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 09 2005 :  12:27:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage  Reply with Quote
And that can all be true, but I don't buy it.

First, the quote as remembered or through a translater says they became afraid when the walking soldiers were seen. And it doesn't quite match what happened, given that some claim Terry (as Terry claims Terry...)were under surveillance all the time and at least a day before reaching the battlefield his advance units had seen Indians, some in soldier uniforms on army mounts. It was a slow and organized withdrawal at leisure complete with huge dust cloud and they camped as a unit a day south before splitting up. It doesn't quite say they don't like the tactics of walking soldiers and were scared of them.

But one of the reasons the Indians always lost in the end was their warriors' Short Attention Span Theatre approach to war. Drudgery and slow, incremental steps were women's work, their attitude towards farming and civilization.

And, in 1886 on the LBH battlefield, infantry formed skirmish lines and fired for benefit of photographer Barry for the 10th anniversary (this from Where Custer Fell) that shows soldiers in groups of four quite close together, and an empty space equal to the amount each four occupys between them. The photographs are there, and are supposed to replicate what Custer was doing that day. This photo matches no description of such tactics on this thread, although I do understand a squad was four men back then. A second photo shows a line with soldiers kneeling and firing about six feet apart, then a gap, another group, and the mounted officers behind the left side. Page 124 and 125

I think much procedure was on the fly. We're told horseholders are every four, but in The Custer Album illustrations from artists at the scene during small battles saying every three.

But if these photos are actually how the Army thought Custer would have fought that day, it shows mandatory bunching and more versatility than has been expressed here.

Lord knows, I don't know. But I think trying to wring interpretation through manuals that Custer had no history of admiring in dress or conduct in himself or his men is risky.

Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com

Edited by - Dark Cloud on December 09 2005 12:55:46 PM
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wILD I
Brigadier General


Ireland
Status: offline

Posted - December 09 2005 :  2:58:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But dismounted cavalry fights pretty much as infantry does.This is of course is straight out of Harry Potter's C&GSC manual of legless infantry tactics which gave us that super dooper 900 yard long Custer's very own Seigfrid line.Matched only by the 700 yard thin red line at Rorke's drift.
DC you are far too dismissive of Military etiquette.Take for example the killing zones as outlined in the SG&CC manual[don't ask me for the quote].There is a drill for the two troopers at each end of the gap to turn inwards if a breakthrough should occur and to pour a deadly hail of two rounds into the mass of unfortunate savages milling around in great confusion in this death trap.


Also you would have to dig a big hole for your horse.
AZ you are so out of touch with advanced tactics for riderless horses.Before going into action the horse is given an extra feed of oats.The resultant gas is utlised to inflate its own hole.

Sorry lads can't take this seriously otherwise I'd start to go batty like DC.
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Vern Humphrey
Captain


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 09 2005 :  4:19:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
But dismounted cavalry fights pretty much as infantry does.This is of course is straight out of Harry Potter's C&GSC manual of legless infantry tactics which gave us that super dooper 900 yard long Custer's very own Seigfrid line.Matched only by the 700 yard thin red line at Rorke's drift.
DC you are far too dismissive of Military etiquette.Take for example the killing zones as outlined in the SG&CC manual[don't ask me for the quote].There is a drill for the two troopers at each end of the gap to turn inwards if a breakthrough should occur and to pour a deadly hail of two rounds into the mass of unfortunate savages milling around in great confusion in this death trap.



Your posts are growing increasingly personal and nasty. It's difficult to take you seriously.
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wILD I
Brigadier General


Ireland
Status: offline

Posted - December 09 2005 :  5:43:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nah! they are not personal only directed at your posts.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 12 2005 :  08:18:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

BJMarkland Colonel- July 07 2005 : 5:24:18 P

Every fourth trooper acted as a horseholder not third. There are some Indian reports from the Custer battle of single troopers on Calhoun Hill holding more than four horses indicating that some horseholders may have been detailed to either reinforce the line or take ammunition to Calhoun's company.




I believe in ideal conditions it would be three horses attached to the horseholders horse. Under some battle conditions it could certainly vary.

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 12 2005 :  08:28:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
But one of the reasons the Indians always lost in the end was their warriors' Short Attention Span Theatre approach to war. Drudgery and slow, incremental steps were women's work, their attitude towards farming and civilization.



On this point I would agree whole heartedly with you.

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - December 12 2005 :  08:46:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Also you would have to dig a big hole for your horse.
AZ you are so out of touch with advanced tactics for riderless horses.Before going into action the horse is given an extra feed of oats.The resultant gas is utlised to inflate its own hole.




Thanks Wild I will try that technique on my horses today. As a lowly private I have not been trained in all the tactics and strategies that you generals know. One thing I have learned from this board is I need more resource data at my disposal. I have ordered my map and "Where Custer Fell"

“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”

SEMPER FI
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