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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 16 2005 : 10:35:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
3. What erroneous quote? There's no point reading your postings, you don't know what you've said half the time.
4. Your original statement was "What I find astonishing is that Reno swore he never received any orders from Custer." That isn't true, is it Wiggs?
A belated Post Script: The Reno Court of Inquiry, W.A. Graham.
Major Reno There upon took the stand in his own behalf.
'On the morning of the 25th, Col. Benteen came over to where I was, and while he was there, I discovered that the column was moving. I was not consulted about anything. I never received any direct orders, and exercised the functions of what imagined where those of a Lieutenant Colonel.'
'At the time I was in the timber I had not the remotest idea where either the pack train or Benton's column were. There was no plan communicated to us; if one existed the subordinate commanders did not know of it.'
'When I say that no plan was communicated to us I mean to the regiment. I do not think there was a plan.'
There was no plan, there were no orders. A maniac decided to charge into a mass of irate Indians and get himself, and his entire command annihilated. Sleep well Reno, and may God bless you. May God bless you too D.c. I make this wish because you can not be as obnoxious, arrogant, pompous, ignorant, uninformed, and utterly inhuman as you have, thus far, appeared to be.
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Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 16 2005 10:50:24 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2005 : 10:14:54 AM
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Yes. Well, see Wiggs, here's another example of you not knowing what you've written. And if anyone doesn't believe me, or thinks I'm being cruel, they need only read Mr. Wiggs' Benteen Orders thread. It's all still there. The pretend past, the illiteracy, the plagiarism, the inability to know what it is he's written, and his casual assumption he can accuse people of all sorts of things and get away with it. All there.
Here, though, Wiggs started out by providing quotes (I don't vouch for them, but they don't violate anything I've read)regarding Reno's orders on the 25th from Custer as to what Reno was to do regarding the attack about to be made. This occured after they had crossed the divide into the LBH valley. They're mutually exclusive, for the most part. But that's not Wiggs' error. He says, in the same posting, that he cannot believe the Reno claimed he'd never received orders from Custer. This was, of course, untrue regarding the topic Wiggs has selected to discuss.
When called on it, he regresses to a previous event - bringing the regiment forward, an event that Custer had not asked for and which his brother probably had done - where Reno had not received orders. Neither had Benteen. This is a separate incident, and the quotes and alleged point of Wiggs' posting regarded solely the orders Reno received regarding the attack. This is as relevant as finding quotes where Reno might have said he'd received no orders for something on the Yellowstone, or during the Civil War.
This is the problem with functional illiteracy. Just as he used "erupt" when he meant "abrupt" solely because they sounded alike. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on July 17 2005 11:54:21 AM |
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alfuso
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2005 : 12:22:02 PM
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...snipped for brevity...
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Here, though, Wiggs started out by providing quotes (I don't vouch for them, but they don't violate anything I've read)regarding Reno's orders on the 25th from Custer as to
When called on it, he regresses to a previous event - bringing the regiment forward, an event that Custer had not asked for and which his brother probably had done - where Reno had not received orders. Neither had Benteen. This is a separate incident, and the quotes and alleged point of Wiggs' posting regarded solely the orders Reno received regarding the attack. This is as relevant as finding quotes where Reno might have said he'd received no orders for something on the Yellowstone, or during the Civil War.
Wouldn't Reno, as senior Major, have been the one to bring the regiment forward? Tom had no say about that as a recent Captain. Custer had left orders for the regiment to move out at 8 a.m. and never rescinded them before he left for Crows Nest.
alfuso
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Deny Everything
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2005 : 1:21:32 PM
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Yes, you'd think.
None of the three enabled - Cooke, Benteen, Reno - seems to have done it. And given the high feelings, if they said they had not been so ordered, but they had, some of their fellows would cheerfully have reported this. The 7th came forward as TC rode to his brother on Crow's Nest. I've always thought TWC was more than just another Captain, and acted as Custer's spokesperson often enough. If you read what we have of the 7th, and change TWC's name to Fred Smith, it's very odd this guy is always around and involved with command decisions, a status granted neither by rank nor seniority. Nobody seems to have objected, though.
Many adjutants were a real presence in their units, as Bourke was in Crook's. But Cooke in Custer's regiment is a blank compared to Tom and even Benteen and Reno. Not in any way proof in and of itself, but in aggregate with other stuff provides suggestions of the depth of the nepotism that permeated the 7th. Quoting myself, there was an official and an actual command structure, and I think much silliness is perpetuated trying to pat that into shape and to make Custer a by the numbers kinda guy as needed. Cooke was a gofer. TWC was the real adjutant, the one to whom Custer turned often enough. Again, no proof. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2005 : 2:16:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alfuso
...snipped for brevity...
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Here, though, Wiggs started out by providing quotes (I don't vouch for them, but they don't violate anything I've read)regarding Reno's orders on the 25th from Custer as to
When called on it, he regresses to a previous event - bringing the regiment forward, an event that Custer had not asked for and which his brother probably had done - where Reno had not received orders. Neither had Benteen. This is a separate incident, and the quotes and alleged point of Wiggs' posting regarded solely the orders Reno received regarding the attack. This is as relevant as finding quotes where Reno might have said he'd received no orders for something on the Yellowstone, or during the Civil War.
Wouldn't Reno, as senior Major, have been the one to bring the regiment forward? Tom had no say about that as a recent Captain. Custer had left orders for the regiment to move out at 8 a.m. and never rescinded them before he left for Crow's Nest. Had Tom failed to do so, Custer's famous temper certainly would have "Abrupted" like a volcano.
alfuso
Alfonso, of course you are correct. Your comments represent a genuine and comprehensive knowledge of this event. The erroneous, statement "an event that Custer had not asked for" is representative of a substantial lack of knowledge and the typical unwillingness, by the user, to gather information prior to shooting one's mouth off. Custer did,indeed,leave orders for the movement to the Crow's nest. Certainly Custer's famous temper would have "abrupted" had Tom not followed orders. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2005 : 3:01:21 PM
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Joe
Custer did,indeed,leave orders for the movement to the Crow's nest.
Gray [page 241]describes how Custer rounded on Tom asking "Tom who in the devil moved these troops forward?My orders were to remain in camp all day and make a night attack on the Indians?
Now it is not that the command was brought farward that is puzzling but that it was brought forward and was halted [halt 2]and then advanced again.That is 3 decisions someone took.
Reading this section of the approach to the LBH Tom never seems too far from the action at the head of the column.Further at the second halt he joins up with Calhoun and Moylan and they take themselves off for a quiet smoke.He then gallops forward to report to the returning Custer as if he was in command of the column and not Reno.And all the while Reno is just following along as if it was standard practice for little brother to call the shots.
On the march to the LBH Reno is never part of the HQ group ,never seems to act as the 2i/c,his only role being that of a troop commander. |
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alfuso
Corporal
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Posted - July 17 2005 : 9:49:42 PM
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Wiggs
Wouldn't Reno, as senior Major, have been the one to bring the regiment forward? Tom had no say about that as a recent Captain. Custer had left orders for the regiment to move out at 8 a.m. and never rescinded them before he left for Crow's Nest. ***Had Tom failed to do so, Custer's famous temper certainly would have "Abrupted" like a volcano.***
That ***line was not in my original post. Did you mean to say it in yours?
alfuso |
Deny Everything
Prepare to Panic |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 17 2005 : 10:23:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alfuso
Wiggs
Wouldn't Reno, as senior Major, have been the one to bring the regiment forward? Tom had no say about that as a recent Captain. Custer had left orders for the regiment to move out at 8 a.m. and never rescinded them before he left for Crow's Nest. ***Had Tom failed to do so, Custer's famous temper certainly would have "Abrupted" like a volcano.***
That ***line was not in my original post. Did you mean to say it in yours?
alfuso
Absolutely the line was mine and not yours. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2005 : 05:36:12 AM
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This points up some real leadership problems in this regiment.You said it Warlord.
Has anybody ever seen that section of the Reader's Digest--Humour in Uniform?
Who moved the regiment forward,was it you trooper Martin?
Benteen take the day off and go valley hunting.
I will support you with the whole outfit.Tee hee hee
Damn you bloody knife look what you've done to my shirt.Ok I'm out of here.Anybody want to save themselves?
Benteen come on be quick ,bring the slow moving packs.Ya gota be joking.
Where are the Indians Martin.The're skadadling Sir.Wait Sir I ment to say in this direction.
Where the hell is Weir off to now.Does he know something we don't?
What's that song Tom you liked to sing I lost my heart to the Black Hills |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2005 : 11:37:53 AM
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If this battle had not ended so tragically, sadly, it would be hilarious! Truely folks, this reminds me of F~Troop, and a movie called Advance to The Rear, starring Glenn Ford. Why? Real Leadership Problems ~ indeed! Starting with Custer himself. He didn't know how to follow directions! And then when confronted with someone who supposedly disobeyed his orders to keep the Regiment where they were, what does he do? This is Curious to say the least. It is apparent that whoever did, put the entire command at risk. But then Custer himself should be blameless, right? I mean like he gets all panicky and tells everyone that "weve been discovered", like he's some kind of Paul Revere, sounding the alarm! Uh.. wouldn't you have thought that he would have sent his scouts forward first to see if that was the case, before jumping to that disastrous conclusion? Why the frenzied worry over being discovered? Was it an excuse, and Tom a part of the ploy? One does have to seriously wonder.
However, trying to stay within reason. What happens next? Throughout the rest of the day. From what can be gathered. Custer seems ~ hesitant, kinda like "what the hell am I going to do now? ~ hesitant? You know? While the whole 'regiment forward' very well could have been contrived, what happened after seems to suggest otherwise! While trying to get an assessment of direction he hesitates before going to Reno hill, Scouts mess up big time and he has to do their job. Then he hesitates another what? 45 minutes over at Weir point! What in Lucifer's name ~ for? Nothing is rational here! He makes no coherent, lucid decisions! And when it's too late he boldly goes forward knowing full well that the indians are putting up a bloody struggle! Even if he just thought that it was his 200 men against a 1000 warriors, that was still 5 to 1 odds! Did he really think he stood a chance? Some charge that Benteen was the fault, he was, to quote them, "too slow"! Yeah right, I can prove that he wasn't! And if, just if, Custer was waiting for Benteen, then why didn't he? Another botched command decision? I'll let you decide! But in light of the way Custer's day was going, I'd say so! From the looks of it. It looks like he was trying to make a diversion at MTF, with an intentional fall back to near Calhoun hill, a rear guard if you will. This so that the he and the rest of the command would then ford the river further downstream and capture the non-coms. A last ditch effort? I'd say so, wouldn't you? But why the urgency, why the need not to wait for Benteen? None of it makes any sense at all. None of it, and it never will, because Custer didn't know either! I truely think that he was thrust into a situtation that he didn't know how to deal with. Whether that was by design or not would be interesting to know! It appears that he was caught off guard from this moment on, and truely didn't know what to do! |
Edited by - Benteen on July 18 2005 11:46:24 AM |
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Glossary of Terminology Regarding LBH
