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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 11 2005 : 5:14:48 PM
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| The best question of the battle is why did he stop there?He was under attack and running and was stopped there.He had no choice. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - October 21 2005 : 11:04:49 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Captain Outwater
The best question of the battle is why did he stop there? Was he waiting for Benteen, or a scouting report, or was he scouting himself with some officers, or was he watching some Indian movement?
In any event, the archaeological record shows that some men fought well, while most reacted to a sudden attack with panic like movement and little resistance. This is typical of green troops suddenly under heavy fire. It is a factor not of cowardice, but of training, experience and leadership. Apparently they lacked some of all of these factors.
Fantastic post! Indian testimony suggest that Custer's command waited upon Cemetery Ridge for a period time. From that position, he may have witnessed the collapse of "L" troop at Calhoun Hill. As a result, it is possible that he pushed towards LSH to support the retreat of the survivors of companies "C", "L", and "I." During the last twenty minutes,or so,of the battle Custer's command was truly surrounded. Prior to that though, he may have had freedom of movement. In fact, it is possible that this freedom of movement deluded the General in thinking that his position was far more tenable than it actually was.
It is probably true that most of the troopers did not make a "heroic" stand. Under the circumstances that faced them, this is understandable. As archaeological evidence suggest, a sudden and unexpected barrage of Indian "repeater" fire from Greasy Grass Ridge, may have induced panic im members of Company "C" during their excursion into Calhoun Coulée. The resulting panic would have affected other troopers as well.
Some men fought well, some did not, some commanders made good decisions, some did not. Faced with the harsh reality of a horrible death, I would imagine that most did as best as they could. Unfortunately, those soldiers who were slain and/or escaped death are judged by those like us. Sometimes to harshly perhaps, perhaps not. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 22 2005 : 3:44:28 PM
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Fantastic post! Indian testimony suggest that Custer's command waited upon Cemetery Ridge for a period time. From that position, he may have witnessed the collapse of "L" troop at Calhoun Hill.
The above is a classical example of nonsensical waffel.
Joe would have us believe that Custer sat on his arse watching yet another of his units get the chop.He had already seen how Reno fared.So with supreme confidence and all the time in the world and the remainder of his command strung out all over the LBH he sits there rooted to the ground.
Based on the state of the field and the last positions of Custer's units there are two possibilities suggested.One, he was caught in line of march and swamped or he fought a battle of maneuver.If he fought a battle of maneuver and carried out the orgasmic inducing feints,rearguards,counter attacks,rallies and last stands so beloved by Custerphiles one can only marvel at the man's system of control and communication. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - October 23 2005 : 12:19:38 PM
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Ye tak de high road and oil tak de low road
An oil be in Boulder afore ye. |
Edited by - wILD I on October 23 2005 12:20:48 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 23 2005 : 1:00:35 PM
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Hey, I could have said "Fantastic Post, WildI!!!!!!!!!"
Bronze Generals, a book of interviews never before published (or referenced) comes out on the first. Custer is in it, and is described as having a boyish chuckle and drinking iced tea from his canteen. The equivilant of a double mocha Tanzanian Frizze with Sprinkles and paper parasol at Starbucks today.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20051023/D8DDQ8KG4.html
I OWN the low road, fella, and you owe toll. In any case, I'm already here in Boulder.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2005 : 09:08:47 AM
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Two points, wildI. Firstly, Custer didn't see how Reno fared although we have Curley's assertion that the scouts whom he says did see the Reno retreat informed him of it, when they apparently intercepted Custer on his way down MTC.
Secondly, if you are saying Custer was defeated "in line of march", then it still begs the question of where he was marching to - West or Northwest? There were trails for both. |
Edited by - Smcf on October 24 2005 09:10:52 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 24 2005 : 12:54:32 PM
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Two points, wildI. Firstly, Custer didn't see how Reno fared although we have Curley's assertion that the scouts whom he says did see the Reno retreat informed him of it, when they apparently intercepted Custer on his way down MTC.
Same difference Smcf
Secondly, if you are saying Custer was defeated "in line of march", then it still begs the question of where he was marching to - West or Northwest? There were trails for both.
He was attempting to maneuver his command into a position from which he could charge the village.This ment crossing the river and the most likely point he tried was at MTC.It is suggested that the opposition here was negligible so why did this dynamic Murat of the West not cross?As the Lord High protector of the low road suggests the silly man got himself shot.The advance comes to a shuddering halt.Tom and Cooke with Custer in tow turn up Deep Coulee.The withdrawal becomes a retreat becomes a rout.
It is so unglamorous to have Custer shot so early.An entire section of the print and film industry depends on Custer being on stage for the final curtain. |
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Smcf
Captain
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Posted - October 25 2005 : 10:30:35 AM
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[quote="wILD I"]Same difference[/quote]
I beg to differ. Curley doesn't mention what was said between Custer and Boyer re: Reno retreat. What he does say is that Custer moved Northwest and detached gray horse troop to go down MTC, if you can accept Gray's melding of Curley's statements. Godfrey's observations agree with this scenario. So no silly little men getting themselves shot by long haired Lee Harvey Oswald types, it would appear.
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2005 : 10:54:00 AM
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I beg to differ. Curley doesn't mention what was said between Custer and Boyer re:
Ya mean Boyer a professional scout sees Reno get the chop and does not mention it to Custer?
if you can accept Gray's melding of Curley's statements.I don't regard Curley as a credible witness as regards military details.
What he does say is that Custer moved Northwest and detached gray horse troop to go down MTC,
Are we to believe that Custer was feeding his command to the Indians piecemeal?
Custer moved Northwest
He turns down the best approach to the village knowing Reno is in the **** ,weakens his command further and heads northwest ?All this makes no sense. |
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Smcf
Captain
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Posted - October 25 2005 : 12:42:24 PM
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I'm saying Custer did not see Reno "getting the chop", making a distinction from what we know he saw, and what someone, who's credibility is somewhat suspect, thinks Custer heard second-hand.
What military details are you talking about? - Custer sends some troops down MTC and continues over the ridge? - hardly West Point material that. As I say, the trail across Nye-Cartridge was noted, so its not rocket science to piece it together. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2005 : 1:28:56 PM
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I'm saying Custer did not see Reno "getting the chop", making a distinction from what we know he saw, and what someone, who's credibility is somewhat suspect, thinks Custer heard second-hand.Boyer saw Reno defeated.Boyer joined Custer.Now this is a wild guess but I imagine that Boyer told Custer Reno was off the board.
This piece of intelligence must have influenced Custer's decision making.Like lets feed another unit to the Indians???
What military details are you talking about? - Custer sends some troops down MTC and continues over the ridge? - hardly West Point material that.
That he could recall particular geographical features and distinguish one troop from another.
And Custer continuing North West for no good reason presenting a half mile flank to the enemy is a "West Point" consideration or is there another kind of consideration? |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2005 : 3:03:15 PM
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Wild1 ~ You site some very good points! Most researchers/authors etc... Try to have Custer glorified. While these efforts are perfectly understandable. They are in reality ~ hogwash. Custer's own statements before heading down into the "valley of death" was indeed something that has bothered me for a long time. Why indeed make the ludicrous statement. "Hoorah boys, we've caught them napping. We'll finish up here and go home to our station." When he said that. What would cause him for one moment to wait until they were awake? Gray's analysis is fine. It has merit up until the time Custer left for the ford. After that his theories are nothing more than anyone elses speculation. And wild assertions at that. That Custer could have or even would have considered splitting his battalion at that moment is ludicrous at best. And insane in the extreme. Especially when one asks ~ why? There was no reason for it ~ none.
A few clarifications:
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What he does say is that Custer moved Northwest and detached gray horse troop to go down MTC,
Curley is our best chance at understanding this part of the battle. It's not much, but I think enough to not dismiss so lightly. Indeed smcf Custer did dispatch the gray horse troop to charge the ford. In fact this was an offensive manoever that would allow the rest of his troops the luxury of crossing the ford with minimal opposition. If one reads Curley's accounts the gray horse troop was dispatched to the ford. Once there they dismounted and advanced rapidly towards the banks of the river. From this position they fired volleys. Okay, well and good. Now, what for? Curley goes on to explain. The other companies followed "in line." To do so would imply that they were going to attempt to cross the narrowing ford "in line or in column." He mentions that the front of this line or column was the only part of "that column" doing any firing. When the line suddely stops as several of the men were hit as they attempted to cross. AFter this incident, supposedly under minimal yet increasing resistance this column retreated. Now, what doesn't make sense. Is why North?
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And Custer continuing North West for no good reason presenting a half mile flank to the enemy is a "West Point" consideration or is there another kind of consideration?
To be perfectly honest it was darn near a mile to Calhoun Hill from the ford. And yet another mile to Weir peak. And yet another mile+ to Reno Hill. This flank would open up "presenting over a 3 mile flank to the enemy...!!!" Yet Custer in all his brilliance went north away from safety. And I must add, lost any chance at re-uniting with any of his units. West Point tactic? I don't think so....
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if you can accept Gray's melding of Curley's statements.
No, I can't accept Gray's meddeling of Curley's statements. He's twisting them to read it the way he wants it to read. Not the way Curley stated it.
quote:
Secondly, if you are saying Custer was defeated "in line of march", then it still begs the question of where he was marching to - West or Northwest? There were trails for both.
There were lots of so called "trails" that day. Who knows which trail was which? Was there a clear distinction betweeen Indian from trooper? How many? etc....
The so called trail over Nye Cartwright wasn't made by alot of men. At best a squad sized element (4 troopers). Most likely some kind of scouting mission. And Indians on ponies were all over the place that day. So who's to say which trail was which?
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2005 : 3:28:43 PM
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To start with, soldier's horses have shoes, ponies don't.
What's the source for not a lot of horses in the NC trail, and how does that meld with all the alleged casings found there through the years?
Benteen, you're not clear on the time line. "Hurrah, boys" was made at Reno or Weir if Martin is believed, not before they entered the valley, if they ever actually did.
Yes, why north. If repelled here, what is gained by going north. Fooling the Indians that with less surprise and worse odds, it'll be successful later? Why not south to rejoin Reno and Benteen? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2005 : 5:08:27 PM
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When the line suddely stops as several of the men were hit as they attempted to cross. AFter this incident, supposedly under minimal yet increasing resistance this column retreated.
Because one of those hit was Custer. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - October 25 2005 : 5:43:37 PM
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I believe you are right about that, Wild1. Although, sadly... there is little evidence to prove it.
DC quote:
What's the source for not a lot of horses in the NC trail, and how does that meld with all the alleged casings found there through the years?
Curiously enough not alot has been mentioned of this. Oh sure. We have the rebuttal's like yours. Personally, all I've ever seen on the subject was something like this. And, what bothers me is... That to try to find out what was found there is like pulling teeth. Or it would cost you a large fortune to get your hands on the supposed manuscript of those who claimed to have excavated it. One supposedly sold on E-bay a while back, and all I can say. I wish I was the one selling it! If it's that well guarded of a secret. Then it may not have been something true. Personally I don't believe it was or is. I think it was someone who planted evidence. If it has some value as to the number of men there than that's different. Personally, I don't think even then that information can be gleaned from anywhere. And if it can't be accessed, then why bother with it. It didn't happen.
quote:
Benteen, you're not clear on the time line. "Hurrah, boys" was made at Reno or Weir if Martin is believed, not before they entered the valley, if they ever actually did.
Well... actually the valley I was referring to was Cedar Coulee. These statements were made just prior to his entry there.
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2005 : 04:54:29 AM
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No, I can't accept Gray's meddeling of Curley's statements
I'm not accepting Curley's statements - I'm making the point that you can't pick and choose from them. Custer did not see Reno defeated period. Custer split his column into 2 at the divide (attested to by Moylan and Edgerly), not at the Cedar coulee/MTC junction - that's where he deployed them. What's the point of the split if he was going to lead a full charge of 5 companies? There were two trails as noted by Godfrey (who would know a column trail from a scout trail from a pony trail, wouldn't you think?).
As I say - its not rocket science. All evidence points to his column continuing to move Northwest, whether you like it or not. As you point out, there's nothing to support your shot Custer theory. Show us the Curley statement which says Custer was shot - a pretty obvious piece in his testimony, I would have thought. No - there's nothing. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2005 : 05:29:07 AM
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Strictly speaking, Custer divided his command into four parts just after the divide. That he portioned his group into two battalions would not necessarily be indication of intent to divide, but to give himself flexibility; easier to send two riders than five. At any rate, which had three companies, which two, and who Custer rode with is conjecture.
And since Godfrey changed his mind, as did Benteen, in the days after about Custer crossing at MTC (because they couldn't distinguish tracks at that point) all this is high conjecture. How do you tell a "squad" of four soldiers from four Cheyenne riding soldier horses by tracks two days later, or at all?
Again: we have no testimony from Curley. We have alleged translations of what he may have said. Still, as in that newspaper article interviewing Gall at the tenth anniversary, there is much to be concerned about. I don't think he lied, I don't think the translations could have been very good.
What, for example, would an Indian mean using the term "hour"? Or "in line" or any of that? When Gall was interviewed, it was said he made the sign for "noon" when we eat "dinner" and indicated cutting it in half from which it was clearly understood the battle took half an hour. Clear, eh? Noon? Maybe midday, around three which - shocked gasp! - turns out to be the time Reno charged. So was Gall really giving the duration of the battle or the time of its start? When whitemen say "midday" they mean noon, often enough. Being of linear thought regarding time.
When Indians say it, being cyclical, they mean half way between sunrise and sunset, which is not noon, and certainly not on June 25. I can't know if that happened here, but the eerily confident manner with which a precise recording of a bad translation was made is pretty horrifying. The newspaper reporter says of course, Gall didn't use the name Reno and Custer but we know what he meant.
Suuuuuuure we do.
We know Jack about what happened after MTC. Virtually nothing. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2005 : 05:30:01 AM
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Just looking at my maps of the Custer field and trying to put some logic to the movement and last positions of the units I find that Gray might have been greatly mistaken in his description of Capt.Sweet's placement of the markers.Sweet as you may all recall had 49 spare markers to get rid of.Gray insists that he did his best to maintain the integrity and shape of the final positions.I think that he may have just jettisoned the 49 spurious markers in the Keogh sector of the field and this is why---
There are 2 distinct sectors on the battle field,the Custer sector and the Keogh sector.Custer along with family, HQ group and 3 troops[E,F,C] a total of 121 men fell on this sector.There are 121 markers on this sector.On the Keogh sector 2 troops totalling 84 men fell.There are 131 markers placed here,far too many.Take 84 from 131 and you are left with 47 or nearly the total of spurious markers.Because of this vandalism no conclusions can be drawn from the markers it is even possible that the entire Calhoun Ridge/hill position is spurious. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2005 : 05:53:45 AM
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All we need to recall is that 20% of the markers are wrong, and about five are missing.
I've said this before: take any 20% away, add five somewhere, put the supposed twenty down in Deep Ravine, stretch Custer and friends to the top of monument hill, and then, after looking at the result, tell me with a straight face that you can see the clear outline of a coherent defense.
If you're correct, Wild, that means Co. I vaporized on the run, as Godfrey said. It would make sense Sweet liked the ridge: easy on the wagons. I don't buy Gray's affection for Sweet either, and suspect he did as all the burial parties did: a quick and lousy job because who the hell would ever know there in metropolitan Ringworm, Montana? It's not like people are going to come out here to lay a wreath on this god forsaken hill, a mere 50,000 miles from a decent beer.
All the bones washing to the surface by existing markers, plus the corpses emerging around the river, are vivid testament to the great jobs done, the honesty of the Army, the gullibility of the public, and the fact absolutely nobody originally thought this would become a shrine, be an issue, be mentioned much again.
Should we spend this week digging up bodies not in coffins, bone by bone, and moving them two hundred yards to dump in a mass grave? A break, sarge. They're buried now. Well, except for these guys, and those, but you know? Get serious. If we can't see them, we should leave them. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2005 : 06:26:52 AM
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quote:
which had three companies, which two, and who Custer rode with is conjecture
Keogh had 3 and Yates 2, Gray gives out source for that. If we take out the various Indian accounts, the field evidence on 28th (not the later markers) puts the vast weight of action over a mile away at any point from the ford. Shifting that weight to accommodate action at the ford seems a little too much to me. Filling in the Cheyenne accounts again only fleshes out a minor skirmish with troops and even fewer Indians.
What gave the clue to a ford, anyway? Was it Boyer who knew one was there, and if so the implication is that he knew of others, or was there an Indian trail down there? If the latter, then it muddies interpretation of a later troop movement down there, no? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2005 : 07:49:42 AM
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"Some village Cheyenne told Grinnell (when, by the way, did these unnamed souls reveal this?) that 'two troops, the Grey Horse Troop in the lead,' approached Ford B." That, and Gray's assumption Custer would keep the three with him. That's it. Yet, a third troop would not be visible to people in the village. Or the first and second, but never mind. Page 360, Gray. What would "troop" mean to a Cheyenne? Or "Ford B?" Nothing, until instructed by hearing other stories. Hardly any Co. C horses were found on the field, said Benteen. And those bodies were all over, not primarily with I or L and this based on the markers which are a joke.
Could be, of course, but Gray isn't coherent. Why two troops when one could suffice for a feint? Why a feint at all, since it would bring everyone and Aunt Dora out against him? To what purpose, by the by? He has no clue about Reno's casualties and horse loss, which everyone shines on. Gray's theory that Custer planned to wait for as yet unneeded ammo and reinforcements is bizarre to me, planning to wait exposed with no shelter with 25% of his firepower holding mounts. And Benteen, somehow, was to arrive WITH the train through all the enemy in time? In time for what? Custer won't have horses no matter when, and Reno's has to have lost a bunch. Once stopped and under attack with no cover, there was not a hope an offense could somehow occur, being mostly on foot with ammo packs gone with the mounts.
This ain't Custer, and I find it hard to believe it was his decision to head East and not attack West with all he had when he had it if he had a say. You can't meld this with his supposed hysteria the Indians were getting away. If they were getting away, why would they not contine to while he rode East to watch from high ground? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2005 : 08:58:53 AM
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I don't buy the feint theory either, but I do agree with Gray's analysis up to the point including the split. He was doing it all afternoon, so there's no mystery here for me. He took his time all the way over to MTC, including a half-mile detour Northeast of the village when I'm not convinced it was necessary, if his intention to attack from MTC is taken as read. It all seems to me to be indicative of a man who believed he had total control of the situation. If Benteen was a major issue with him, then why not hang around Weir ridge for him? No - on he pressed further and further away, and this well before any action in his sector. When there was action, his further movement Northwest (in my opinion) indicates to me he still believed there was minimal threat at that point.
As regards the artifacts found on NC, it would be interesting to know where on the ridge they were discovered. |
Edited by - Smcf on October 26 2005 09:22:26 AM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
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Posted - October 26 2005 : 10:20:28 AM
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Smcf ~ "If Benteen was a major issue with him, then why not hang around Weir ridge for him? No - on he pressed further and further away, and this well before any action in his sector. When there was action, his further movement Northwest (in my opinion) indicates to me he still believed there was minimal threat at that point."
DC ~ "Gray's theory that Custer planned to wait for as yet unneeded ammo and reinforcements is bizarre to me, planning to wait exposed with no shelter with 25% of his firepower holding mounts. And Benteen, somehow, was to arrive WITH the train through all the enemy in time? In time for what?"
Some tend to think ahead in these situations. And try to imagine where Custer was going. I like to build upon the past to get to the future. Therefor for me, it's finding the prior evidence for or against a supposed theory. Smcf wants to believe Gray's theory of a split in Custer's Battalion. Which is his right. No one wants to take away your beliefs. Debate them, sure. Why not? So here goes. Somewhere from Reno Hill to Weir Peak Custer made the statement. "Hoorah boys, we've caught them napping...." Now lets meld both DC's and Smcf's statements and see if there is anything to it. This is a curious statement by Custer. Did he not see Reno's charge? Did he not see the warriors out in front of the village kicking up the dust, as was reported by Reno's men. Just how much of Reno's action had he witnessed to that point?
The statement is revealing. 1) Because previous to this. Custer had ordered Reno to charge the village on the assumption that it was "fleeing." 2) He had done this without proper followup recon. And had ordered it virtually upon the words of scouts. Sight unseen at that! All he had based that attack order upon was those scouts words that the indians were fleeing.
3) Now, on or perhaps near Sharpshooter Hill. He makes this revelation. "Hoorah boys, we've caught them napping..." It was at that moment. That he realized that the warriors were all in their tents sleeping. ~ OMG!!!! I've done it right!!! Reno's attack has caught them off guard.~ 4) Now for the rest of the story... Because they had caught them napping. What did Custer expect? ...We'll finish up here and go home to our station." Which reads to me as ~ a piece of cake. Custer expected this thing to be a cake walk.
Now knowing Custer's expectations, from his own words. Would he dilly dally the 40 to 50 minutes as Gray said? Would he wait for Benteen? Would he foolishly split his battailion for any purpose? There wasn't time for this. If Custer was to exploit the success and the dumb luck that had just been dumped into his lap. He had to attack that village and soon! Northwest manoevers, splitting the battalion, waiting for Benteen.... etc. on and on.. can't and don't make any sense. If he was to exploit the indians being caught off guard. Then he wouldn't have given them time to organize a resistance against him. Attack at that moment in time was imperative. How imperative. And just how quickly did Custer make up his mind to do it? The answer. The note to Benteen. It was quickly written, without forethought as to intent and follow through. Even Benteen said something to the effect. "Now how does he expect me to do that?" Precisely! Both instruction was unclear. 1) Big Village ~ hurry 2 Bring Packs. Just how was he supposed to hurry with those packs? This confusion to this day has led many astray. Benteen was clearly as confused as we are today. 2) The orders were quickly written. They were not concise and to the point. And they didn't provide the means by which he was to carry out those confusing orders. This is evidence that Custer was in a hurry. A big hurry! And it is further evidence that he wasn't waiting for anyone or anything.
For Custer to have attacked that village with less than all his Battalion would not have made any sense. If there was no feint then that would mean that his intention was to cross the river. And according to Martini, that's exactly what he told him he was going to do. It is likely that he did. For if Martini was to be the relay to Benteen. Then he would want someone who knew what was going on to be able to tell Benteen.
Anything less than Custer's full battalion attacking that ford doesn't make any sense. None at all. Especially at the time that he should have. Splitting up his force only would weaken any attack there. While whoever went off somewhere to find something unknown on down stream. Now to me. That makes about as much sense as saying Custer attacked MTF just so that Benteen could come along later and take up position there. Yeah right! Another brilliant West Point move. |
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - October 26 2005 : 11:59:08 AM
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| What was the point of concealment then? If he was in such a hurry, then why the extra stopping off breaks on the way to and past Weir point? Why not gallop down Weir coulee, rather than taking a northeast hike away from the village and taking him to a point well over a mile away before his charge? |
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The new myth
