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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - May 15 2005 : 10:39:40 AM
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This is a continuation from Springfield Cartridge, page 21. How we arrived here is anyone's guess.....
"You cannot attend peace conferences and proclaim peace and justice and at the same time indulge in a war of terror on a people who by a vast majority had sought freedom and independence." But they weren't fighting for freedom and independence. They were fighting for a free hand to exact the petty revenges upon each other they had for centuries under the guise of freedom and independence. Further, once independent, the liberal Irish Church, famous for tolerance, was elevated into social prominence.
"We did not have to defeat them. (You do if you want to claim you beat them) We just made the country ungovernable. (It was always ungovernable, and the petty wars between the Irish made conquest so easy. Akin to saying we stamp our feet and they can't make us eat) Militarily we wiped out their secret service, shot their police in the back and destroyed their administrative center." (Wow. The doors of Vahalla swing open....don't forget bombs in subways and the heroic murder of Montbatten....and of course, knee capping women and men who bought their drugs elsewhere.)
"You may be a little mixed up here.It was Churchill who threatened what you described as immolation if a treaty was not accepted.It was the British army who threatened to mutiny if the North was included in any settlement." Again, you move the baseline. The threats went back to the 19th century, and came from the Irish if they weren't granted their freedom by Gladstone. The majority of the North did not want the British Army to leave, being Protestant.
"You state that Britian just wanted to be rid of us. Well Britian is a composite containing various groups and interests.The military for example did not want to be rid of us.We commanded the Western approaches and our ports were of strategic significance to the navy." The only important group was the voting public paying for the money hole that was Ireland.
"The aristocracy who owned us lock stock and barrel did not want to be rid of us.The planted loyalists did not want to break with the motherland and face life under a papist government and we were a source of cheap food and manpower for the empire." I know, you poor things. When you were granted independence, and those landowners were removed from power, the standard of living must have skyrocketed, huh.
"Besides all that the World saw Ireland as part of the UK." This is all supposition. The UK is Scotland, Wales, and England. Ireland wasn't part of it except as part of Britain.
"To yourselves as an nation.The leader of the free world.Could never face up to the betrayal at Yalta.Thus the fluffing and patting." What are you talking about? The Soviets were defeated without a war.
"It was an indication of the capitulation mindset of Roosevelt and Churchill.Hundreds of thousands could have been saved from Stalin's death camps but not even this did our heros deny him." How? By a war killing hundreds of thousands more to no end? Churchill and FDR had "capitulation mindsets"? Bogus.
"Me granny could have taken it before her breakfast. This invasion of Japan is another great myth.Japan was dead in the water.There was never any need to have nuked it." No, that's left wing myth. Japan was primed to the bit. The Japanese said so, say so, everyone with first hand knowledge says so. Only people who couldn't imagine facing up to what Japan faced - America, most of Europe - say they would have surrendered without the bomb because that's what we would have done. They really did believe that midget with the effeminate voice was a God. Not in a secular way, either.
"The Tsar was an emperior who was butchered by Stalin's mates, so the lands conquered by the Tsars pass to....no I haven't time for this." Because you lose. Stalin's mates cheerfully accepted all the Romanov lands as theirs as well, and said so.
"Well for 50 years and two gererations it worked out for the worst." The Cold War was nothing compared to the blood bath you advocate. But war and violence diverts attention, doesn't it.
"I can only ask you to back that up with some facts or a few examples or something because it is just too stupid to reply to in its present form." Sure, Wild. Your young people hang themselves at a rate commensurate with the alcoholism and drug addictions, about twice as many as elsewhere. Whereas most suicides are by the elderly and ill, in Ireland they're by the young and depressed. When you guys provide a society where suicides among the young aren't skyrocketing, and it was up like 50% between 1985 and 1996 and still going, we'll talk. This is the third or fourth time I've mentioned this as an example of a society that is failing or failed.
http://www.a1b2c3.com/suilodge/figuk1.htm
The suicide rates are comparable to those among Native Americans, and for much the same reasons. Alcohol, drugs, depression. Coincidence, or are there unifying factors that might be looked upon?
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/pub-res/natam.htm
A few, maybe. Both societies (and this is risky, because NA societies are widely diverse, but....)feature extensive and false mythologies about past greatness, predominently military, and often at the expense of impressive accomplishments that involved women and civilized society. Much of it is balderdash.
Their 'fall' is blamed upon the conquering society currently all around it, who is posited to have betrayed, lied, stolen, but never conquered, all evidence to the contrary. To succeed in the new society, cutting heavy rope to the memory and lives of ancestors is necessary. There are those in both societies whose prestige and wealth are dependent upon those ropes. Neither society, despite all evidence, admits to itself it was conquered, beaten, because that underlines the lies and fabrications of the military societies, official and not, who have now turned to organized crime in large measure to buck up their prestige.
And when I see that depressing scenario gaining traction here - with bogus military mythology and all - it's worth fighting.
What Wild is doing is stapling his wrist to his forehead and bemoan the failures of Britain and the US. But he fails to mention that coincident or not, the war was won, his way would have killed far more, and it diverts attention away from how Ireland is doing when it has nobody to blame. Britain and the US, right and wrong, have a history of putting cash and lives where their mouths are. Ireland talks a good game, it just never seems to provide, to protect, to prosper on its own.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on May 15 2005 10:47:12 AM
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2005 : 4:00:03 PM
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But they weren't fighting for freedom and independence. They were fighting for a free hand to exact the petty revenges upon each other they had for centuries under the guise of freedom and independence.
The 1916 rebellion was led by poets,teachers, Gaelic revivalists and labour leaders.The signaturies to the proclaimation of the Republic knew full well they were signing their death warrants.They knew that the rebellion was doomed to failure but it was a rallying call.To describe men who are prepared to face firing squads as being motivated by petty revenge is a cheap shot.
But this does not refute my point that on one hand the Brits were proclaiming that they were fighting for little Belgium and the freedom of small nations and on the other there executing Irishmen for wanting the same for Ireland.
the liberal Irish Church, famous for tolerance, was elevated into social prominenceI don't deny it but one could point to Britian whose aristoracy had a seat in Parliment by birthright.
"We did not have to defeat them. (You do if you want to claim you beat them) We just made the country ungovernable. (It was always ungovernable, and the petty wars between the Irish made conquest so easy.
Just to get this historically accurate.The Normans conquered Ireland in 1170 not the English.To judge Ireland of 1170 by the standards of the 21st centary is ridiculious.It is a vast subject and I just don't have the time to take you through it.However I would be interested to know just where in Europe of 1170 one could find a peace loving state governed by an elected parliment.
(Wow. The doors of Vahalla swing open....don't forget bombs in subways and of course, knee capping women and men who bought their drugs elsewhere.)
The above is a description of part of Ireland under the wonderful benign admistration of the British.And don't forget the Paras and Derry and the pograms against nationalists and the brutalising of school children and the gerrymandering and jobs for the Prods---don't get me started DC.
The threats went back to the 19th century, and came from the Irish if they weren't granted their freedom by Gladstone. The majority of the North did not want the British Army to leave, being Protestant
You are out of your debth here you don't know Irish History.Homerule was what Gladstone had promised to the Irish parlimentary party and they abhored violence.
When you were granted independence, and those landowners were removed from power, the standard of living must have skyrocketed, huh
You are all over the place DC with half baked historical quips and now a brilliant observation on economics.Well where was the great United States of America during the same period?Your economy was down a dust filled toilet bowl.Huh?
The UK is Scotland, Wales, and England. Ireland wasn't part of it except as part of Britain.
This is really bad DC.look,in 1800 there was an act of union passed incorporating Ireland into the UK.The offical name given to the Union was the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Ireland.And that is what the Brits wanted to preserve.
The Soviets were defeated without a war.
I hope you are not climing this as well?
How? By a war killing hundreds of thousands more to no end? Churchill and FDR had "capitulation mindsets"? Bogus.
Simply by not sending all those hundreds of thousands of refugees back.That's all it took.No war required,but had to keep Uncle Joe sweet.
No, that's left wing myth. Japan was primed to the bit.
They could not even take out a lone unescorted bomber on a bright clear cloudless day[mushroom clouds excepted]
Japan was primed to the bit. The Japanese said so
I hope they shot their propaganda minister before they surrendered.
"Well for 50 years and two gererations it worked out for the worst." The Cold War was nothing compared to the blood bath you advocate. But war and violence diverts attention, doesn't it.
In 1945 there was only one superpower.Today America is hyped as the only Superpower.It is not really.Every country who has a bomb is a superpower.But in 1945 and for a few years afterwards America was and for the only time in history the only supreme superpower.They could have done anything.The war in Europe was a 10 month affair.[imagine the US is now 2 years in Iraq].The US had hardly begun to fight.With that power they bought 50 years of misery for the world.
Sure, Wild. Your young people hang themselves at a rate commensurate with the alcoholism and drug addictions, about twice as many as elsewhere. Whereas most suicides are by the elderly and ill, in Ireland they're by the young and depressed. When you guys provide a society where suicides among the young aren't skyrocketing, and it was up like 50% between 1985 and 1996 and still going, we'll talk.
Perhaps then we have found some common ground here DC.I imagine college slaughter is just a more violent form of suicide.
A quick check on rates in the States indicates 30000 deaths with 250000 attempted suicidesin 2002.You don't want to get into this.
I thought you said you were a nation or is segregation still alive and well.How smug of you to pick out one ethnic group and suggest inherent weaknesses.You are not a grand wizard of the KKK by any chance?
Britain and the US, right and wrong, have a history of putting cash and lives where their mouths are.
How true DC.I'm old enough to have seen maps marking out the British Empire.It was always colored blood red.How appropriate.
Ireland talks a good game, it just never seems to provide, to protect, to prosper on its own
Look at the number of military missions the UN has been engaged in.Practically everyone of them has an Irish contingent.Irish missioneries in Africa have for years formed the backbone of education.We are a senior member of the EEC.
And as for "protection" who do you think is wet nursing your boys on the way to Iraq? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 15 2005 : 7:32:08 PM
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1."The 1916 rebellion was led by poets,teachers, Gaelic revivalists and labour leaders.The signaturies to the proclaimation of the Republic knew full well they were signing their death warrants.They knew that the rebellion was doomed to failure but it was a rallying call.To describe men who are prepared to face firing squads as being motivated by petty revenge is a cheap shot." Really? How in the world can anyone know that? The Easter Rebellion was the same year that later produced Verdun, the Somme, and Jutland in England's worst year ever, and the coming battles were no secret. Good bet that the Heroic Seven thought they'd get away with it because Britain was too bloodied to retaliate. And, like, Ireland really needed more martyrs to inspire the mob. It needed more competence and action to a beneficial point. Also, England executed a grand total of fifteen, including The Seven, for the Rebellion. How have you restrained yourself not to call it genocide?
2. Which in turn does not refute my point that the Irish lusted to be free to exert revenge upon each other. Since Ireland wouldn't grant the north their independence, England faced - and faces - a horror. Their own creation in the past, but what to do then?
3. "I don't deny it but one could point to Britian whose aristoracy had a seat in Parliment by birthright." The Lords were gelded in 1911 by The Parliament Bill. It was already a joke, and has remained one.
4. "Just to get this historically accurate.The Normans conquered Ireland in 1170 not the English." No, having been there in England since 1066, they were now beyond being just Norman, and in fact Henry II was the founder of the Plantagenet line: the Lion in Winter, et al. "To judge Ireland of 1170 by the standards of the 21st centary is ridiculious." And absolutely nobody was doing it, Wild. "It is a vast subject and I just don't have the time to take you through it." The United States, Russia, China are vast subjects. Ireland is a short footnote even in England. "However I would be interested to know just where in Europe of 1170 one could find a peace loving state governed by an elected parliment." Don't know, why are we discussing it? To divert attention under the guise of a historic issue? Wild, I'm shocked.....
5. "The above is a description of part of Ireland under the wonderful benign admistration of the British.And don't forget the Paras and Derry and the pograms against nationalists and the brutalising of school children and the gerrymandering and jobs for the Prods---don't get me started DC." Irish against Irish. Godawful, no doubt.
6. "You are out of your debth here you don't know Irish History.Homerule was what Gladstone had promised to the Irish parlimentary party and they abhored violence." Nowhere near out of knee deep water. The threat of violence was always there and given much newspaper coverage. Everyone "hates" violence, don't they? They just wage it.
7. "You are all over the place DC with half baked historical quips and now a brilliant observation on economics.Well where was the great United States of America during the same period?Your economy was down a dust filled toilet bowl.Huh?" No tantrums, Wild, I've already demonstrated willingness to admit, even claim, our problems here. Your problem is that Ireland is a mess no matter who is running it. And no, actually, the average American lived far better than the average Irish in the Depression.
8. "This is really bad DC.look,in 1800 there was an act of union passed incorporating Ireland into the UK.The offical name given to the Union was the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Ireland.And that is what the Brits wanted to preserve." It is really bad, Wild, you don't know your own history. The Act of Union brought Ireland into Great Britain, not the UK as a separate entity, in a single kingdom, which is what I said. Ireland lost its Parliament, surrendered all sorts of power. The United Kingdom was Wales, Scotland, and Britain, now containing Ireland.
9. "I hope you are not climing this as well?" No, just a fact. You begrudge England and the US for not starting a pointless war and claim the Cold War was the worst thing possible. Stupid.
10. "Simply by not sending all those hundreds of thousands of refugees back.That's all it took.No war required,but had to keep Uncle Joe sweet." Well, a lot of those folks fought for Hitler, so it's not all that cut and dried. At the end of the war, mistakes were made, often of convenience.
11. "They could not even take out a lone unescorted bomber on a bright clear cloudless day[mushroom clouds excepted]." That's right. They had no oil. But they had a few million ready to die for the Emperor on the ground. Ample precedent they would at Iwo Jima, Okinawa.
12. "I hope they shot their propaganda minister before they surrendered." They didn't have one.
13. "In 1945 there was only one superpower. (Wrong. The US and England were the only nuclear powers, but the Soviet Union was a Super Power.) Today America is hyped as the only Superpower.It is not really.Every country who has a bomb is a superpower. (No. Give Iran a bomb and it's Sri Lanka with a gun.) But in 1945 and for a few years afterwards America was and for the only time in history the only supreme superpower.They could have done anything. (They could not nuke Moscow, win a war against the Soviets, feed the world.) The war in Europe was a 10 month affair. (Okay, Sicily and Italy were '43, Wild. There was the air war since '42, and this assumes you mean just the US.) The US had hardly begun to fight. (Nonsense. The US was sick and tired of the war.) With that power they bought 50 years of misery for the world." No, they didn't. With that power - and England's - they kept the Soviets from taking over joke nations like Greece and Ireland and treating them so badly, which you point out when convenient. And they did it without a real war.
14. "Perhaps then we have found some common ground here DC.I imagine college slaughter is just a more violent form of suicide. A quick check on rates in the States indicates 30000 deaths with 250000 attempted suicidesin 2002.You don't want to get into this." Sure I do, because per capita Ireland leads us by a huge amount among the physically fit young. What college slaughter? And you don't show us the suicide rates by age group. Love to get into it. Ireland's young kill themselves at an alarming rate. Your government says so. What do you know they don't?
15. "I thought you said you were a nation or is segregation still alive and well." We are a nation and segregation is dead. "How smug of you to pick out one ethnic group and suggest inherent weaknesses.You are not a grand wizard of the KKK by any chance?" Not hardly, and ethnic groups don't have inherent weaknesses. National cultures do. Ireland has a habit of failure to step up to the plate, and then bad mouth those who participated if they can use it to elicit sympathy for themselves for long ago traumas.
16. "How true DC.I'm old enough to have seen maps marking out the British Empire.It was always colored blood red.How appropriate." You continue to provide evidence for my recognition scene theory. The maps were red for Britain, but not blood red, because it would make it unreadable. But you go with the exaggeration as metaphor, like you did when it seemed everyone should have been crying at Balaclava, so you stated that they did. What's appropriate to your emotions distorts how you state fact. That's why it's relevant to LBH, and why it has to be noted and sorted out.
17. "Look at the number of military missions the UN has been engaged in.Practically everyone of them has an Irish contingent.Irish missioneries in Africa have for years formed the backbone of education.We are a senior member of the EEC." I'm glad you stopped short of mentioning you have a nice personality and make your own clothes. Irish missionaries in Africa provided the backbone of education? Where? To who? Not in British colonies. Not in Muslim nations. Not in Portuguese colonies. Where, in fact, were they ever the backbone of education? Where is this true?
18. "And as for "protection" who do you think is wet nursing your boys on the way to Iraq?" Don't know to what you refer. Tell us, Wild. And this is relevant to what? Perhaps to the non sequitor to Cuba in a distant post? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2005 : 06:39:38 AM
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Which in turn does not refute my point that the Irish lusted to be free to exert revenge upon each other.
I think the history of Ireland since independance would refute this.The Irish state has been at peace with itself and Britian since 1922.It is a solid democratic peace loving country.On the other hand the north of Ireland remaining under British rule is recognised as a failed statelet with continueing bloody turmoil
But your point is amusing coming as it does from an American whose State took a further 60 years to rid itself of slavery and waged war on its neighbour engaged in genocide and set out to build an Empire.Right up to the 60s you were segregating your citizens.
Both of our countries are made of the same stuff,poor bloody Human beings with all their failings and weaknesses.These failings and weaknesses manifest themselves in different ways depending on the environment and social forces at any given time.I don't want to be drawn into a discussion where in defending Ireland I'm seen to be castigating the US a country for which I have a great fondness and respect.
No, having been there in England since 1066, they were now beyond being just Norman,
No they were 100% Norman[leadership].In fact no sooner had they arrived here but they passed a law forbidding any social contact between the natives and themselves.It was the highly advanced Norman military system of Knights and fortifications which subjued the Irish.
The Lords were gelded in 1911 by The Parliament Bill. It was already a joke, and has remained one.No its no joke it is the recognition of an elite class system.
"To judge Ireland of 1170 by the standards of the 21st centary is ridiculious." And absolutely nobody was doing it, Wild
You were by suggesting that the country was filled by nothing more than warlike bands out for revenge.
The United States, Russia, China are vast subjects.
Yalta is not but you have expanded this issue to the extent that you have set up a new thread.
Irish against Irish. Godawful, no doubt.
You have just insulted half a million orange men but I'm sure you'll be forgiven ,given your grasp of Irish history.
Nowhere near out of knee deep water. The threat of violence was always there and given much newspaper coverage. Everyone "hates" violence, don't they? They just wage it.
Drowning i'm afraid DC.There were two traditions in Ireland.One was the armed force tradition the other was the Parlimentry tradition.The parlimentry crowd were looking for homerule by constitutional means the armed force crowd wanted a total break with Britian.The Parlimentry crowd went off to the Somme and the Dardenells to fight for homerule while the others rose in rebellion in 1916.
Your problem is that Ireland is a mess no matter who is
running it
There are times I wish it was.The second language here is Chinese and another 50000 poles have just arrived .
The Act of Union brought Ireland into Great Britain, not the UK
Yar tryin me bleedin patience now laddy.Great Britian is a georgaphical term.The UK is a political term.
Ireland lost its Parliament, surrendered all sorts of power.
The parliment was not Irish but planter and protestant.We had nothing to lose or surrender.
Well, a lot of those folks fought for Hitler, so it's not all that cut and dried. So did the German army but they were granted POW status.
they kept the Soviets from taking over joke nations like Greece and Ireland and treating them so badly, which you point out when convenient. And they did it without a real war.
That of course is the central tenet of all American thinking.They regard every other State as a joke.And of course the Poles were the greatest joke of all.
You have other points but as they are of the "my country is better than yours "type I shall pass.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2005 : 11:55:54 AM
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"I think the history of Ireland since independance would refute this.The Irish state has been at peace with itself and Britian since 1922." Right. Who killed Michael Collins again? Who sold him out? Did the IRA ever forgive him for shelling them? Parnell, DeValera, Collins, Griffith, all working hard to sell each other out and get power for themselves, Ireland be damned. "On the other hand the north of Ireland remaining under British rule is recognised as a failed statelet with continueing bloody turmoil". Oh please. The IRA contributed most of it.
"Right up to the 60s you were segregating your citizens." True, and shameful. But race issues happen in countries with different races, and we had the added deleterious feature of slavery. Ireland, being more or less one people, was spared this. Still, if we were ten times worse and the doors were opened, most of the Irish would have all moved to America to get out of the depressing cesspit of violence that surrounded them.
"I don't want to be drawn into a discussion where in defending Ireland I'm seen to be castigating the US a country for which I have a great fondness and respect." You weren't 'drawn in,' you started it with slander. We're in this discussion because you made baseless, inaccurate, and vicious accusations against the US (genocide, surrendering to Stalin, etc.)and now, having been hammered on your yammerings, you try to kanoodle your way into good graces posing as reasonable and peaceful. How Irish. You libled us and others and your nation's record doesn't grant you competence to do that. England, with all its myriad faults and history, has done more good in the world than bad, far more than Ireland. Face it.
"No they were 100% Norman[leadership].In fact no sooner had they arrived here but they passed a law forbidding any social contact between the natives and themselves.It was the highly advanced Norman military system of Knights and fortifications which subjued the Irish." Highly advanced for Ireland, maybe. Romans had as much. The Normans were Vikings with stirrups, and Henry II was a Plantagenet King of England - his title. England hammered you early and often, although the genetic makeup of what was English changed. You ought to go back to the Celts genocide of the Emerald Isle's original inhabitants long before, don't you think?
"No its no joke it is the recognition of an elite class system." Correct. Like the vicious monarchs of Ireland. It wasn't Irish history that inspired the Irish Parliament.
"You were by suggesting that the country was filled by nothing more than warlike bands out for revenge." It was. Ask Michael Collins. All the others killed by other Heroes as they battled for power.
"Yalta is not but you have expanded this issue to the extent that you have set up a new thread." No, Wild, you're trying to say that your blood lust, your absolute joy at the prospect of a huge war involving nukes, which you say we should have used on the Soviets, to the extent it might be as stupid and pointlessly vicious as Irish history. We'd still be fighting today.
"You have just insulted half a million orange men but I'm sure you'll be forgiven ,given your grasp of Irish history." No, I haven't. Nothing to be forgiven for.
"Drowning i'm afraid DC.There were two traditions in Ireland.One was the armed force tradition the other was the Parlimentry tradition.The parlimentry crowd were looking for homerule by constitutional means the armed force crowd wanted a total break with Britian.The Parlimentry crowd went off to the Somme and the Dardenells to fight for homerule while the others rose in rebellion in 1916." The Parliamentary tradition is English, not Irish.
"There are times I wish it was.The second language here is Chinese and another 50000 poles have just arrived." What are you talking about? That sounds like segregation is in the works. At least we're past it.
"Yar tryin me bleedin patience now laddy.Great Britian is a georgaphical term.The UK is a political term." No, it isn't. "The parliment was not Irish but planter and protestant.We had nothing to lose or surrender." Gee, you just claimed it as an Irish tradition.....
"So did the German army but they were granted POW status." Which they were. I've already admitted this was awful, but I'm cutting people slack for all the responsibilities dumped on them at war's end. No way to feed, clothe, house these millions. Mistakes were made, clear in hindsight.
"That of course is the central tenet of all American thinking.They regard every other State as a joke.And of course the Poles were the greatest joke of all." No, just joke nations - ones with pompous, demanding govenments without land - were jokes. England was never a joke. The Soviets were not a joke. DeValera was a joke.
"You have other points but as they are of the "my country is better than yours "type I shall pass." Recall, you've been setting up Ireland and yourself as the ethical scourge of the United States for the horrors we unleashed on the world. Don't let it pass, Wild, continue that we may view the myth and ludicrous self-congratulations for nothing that so distinguish Ireland of late and yore. You're obviously used to getting away with it. The good England and the US have done greatly outweighs the evil.
So, how many of your young men hung themselves just today, Wild? Share with us the reports of the Irish government's investigation into this horror. You'll be silent till you can fabricate a way to blame it on England. Not your fault. No, never the poor, victimized Irish.
Time for Ireland to move on and grow up. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2005 : 3:20:03 PM
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Great Britain should have left Ireland to the Irish in 1922--all of it. The Irish, all of them, would have long since come to live in peace. I truly believe that most of these 83-plus years of religious/political violence resulting from the partition would have ended within a few years of a united Ireland.
As for the IRA, Sinn Fein, ect., well, they wouldn't have had a cause once the island was united.
Although I'm probably an anglophile, British rule of Ireland amounted to one cruel and/or greedy stroke following another. Britain bled the country and its people dry, then partitioned it and called that a compromise. Tragic and unforgivable. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2005 : 5:51:06 PM
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Who killed Michael Collins again? Who sold him out?
The civil war ended in 1923.So I'm a few months out.But the statment holds good we have had peace and political stability here for over 80 years.
Did the IRA ever forgive him for shelling them?
The IRA won the election of 1932 and formed a government.The army of the Free State who fought them in the civil war remained loyal to their oath and supported the new government.A transfer of power which would not have happened in a country which you describe as being motivated by revenge.Forgiveness is not quiet the right word but an understanding was reached.
Parnell, DeValera, Collins, Griffith, all working hard to sell each other out and get power for themselves,
Parnell was a different generation ,long dead and Collins and Griffith were collegues.But an impressive list of Irish names pity your use of them just highlights a complete ignorance of Irish history.
Oh please. The IRA contributed most of it.
The civil rights march was attacked by loyalists and battoned off the streets by the RUC.There then followed a concerted effort by the Stormont Regime to crush the civil rights movement.The B specials attacked nationalists areas in Derry and thousands of families were burned out of their homes in Belfast.At that time if there was an IRA it was joke and was ridiculed because it could not defend the nationalists.The British decision to introduce interment without trial only against the nationalists was totally counter productive and had much to do with the rise of the IRA and the 30 year war which followed.
Right up to the 60s you were segregating your citizens." True, and shameful. But race issues happen in countries with different races, and we had the added deleterious feature of slavery. Ireland, being more or less one people, was spared this.
Not so. We had slavery in Ireland ,only we were the slaves to the British Empire.
We're in this discussion because you made baseless, inaccurate, and vicious accusations against the US (genocide, surrendering to Stalin, etc.)
Who's whinging now?You got your chance to prove those accusations false and utterly failed.
England, with all its myriad faults and history, has done more good in the world than bad, far more than Ireland. Face it.
Well having admitted that the English are better men than the Scots I'd say you are far too biased to judge.But just one point just look at the s**** they left behind them in India,Palastine,Zimbawe,Iraq,Iran,Ireland.Do you remember when they tried to take back the Suez canal?The conquences of Britian's exploitation of third world countries[Note none in Europe]and their bloody Empire are still with us to day.
England hammered you early and often, although the genetic makeup of what was English changed.
Well whatever bastard race did it ,it took them about 400 years to complete the job.And no sooner had they got it done than it all seemed to come apart.
Like the vicious monarchs of Ireland. It wasn't Irish history that inspired the Irish Parliament.
Your not listening to me DC.You can't judge Ireland of the middle ages by the standards of the 21st century.Brutal and vicious was the order of the day.Guess what one your King Henrys did to the French Knights captured at Agincourt?You know they even had a "hundred years war"back then.
your absolute joy at the prospect of a huge war involving nukes, which you say we should have used on the Soviets, to the extent it might be as stupid and pointlessly vicious as Irish
history.
I'm talking about a country which used nukes.So the actual using of nukes to solve a military problem was no big deal for the US.So they have this problem with Hitler mark 2 and they don't even say boo.
The Parliamentary tradition is English, not Irish.
You misunderstood.I was not suggesting thet the parlimentry system was Irish only that a section of Irish patriots had a tradition of contitutional politics as opposed to those who used armed force.
"Yar tryin me bleedin patience now laddy.Great Britian is a georgaphical term.The UK is a political term." No, it isn't.
No it isn't what ?go on I'm listening
I'm cutting people slack for all the responsibilities dumped on them at war's end.
How understanding of you.10 months of war ,lotsa slack.800 Years of war ,vicious thugs.Please Sir could you not spare just a little slack for the Micks.
The good England and the US have done greatly outweighs the evil.
Take your finger off the scale old buddy.
So, how many of your young men hung themselves just today, Wild? Share with us the reports of the Irish government's investigation into this horror.
I would have to check the figures but I guess what you are trying to indicate in a very pedantic way is that there is an underlying dysfunctional problem in Irish society.Now I shall let you expand this point and if I cant find a similar problem in American society then you shall have the point.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 16 2005 : 8:00:15 PM
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Hunkpapa, you may be right but given the IRA killed the WWI hero Wilson and chose 1916 to rise to no constructive end, and the IRA slaughtered 3k of their own in the Civil War in one year, there is room to doubt that it wouldn’t have been worse. Don’t ever say it can’t get worse. It’s Ireland. It would have been easier for England, and much cheaper, just to dump it.
For those interested, to get a sense of how inbred and vicious the Irish Civil War and after (and before….) was, use Google for a gazillion references. But here is one that seems well done and objective. Some of the other sites are just idiotic and twisted. Anyway:
http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/irishcivilwar.html
Now, back to Wild…….
“The civil war ended in 1923.So I'm a few months out.But the statment holds good we have had peace and political stability here for over 80 years.” Sure. You just stopped keeping records. By the way, the most violent county per capita in the United States, from colonial times to the present, was settled by Scot/Irish immigrants in South Carolina. Huh.
2. “The IRA won the election of 1932 and formed a government.The army of the Free State who fought them in the civil war remained loyal to their oath and supported the new government.A transfer of power which would not have happened in a country which you describe as being motivated by revenge.Forgiveness is not quiet the right word but an understanding was reached.” Again, people, read the history. The whole war was because Collins signed the treaty and deValera was annoyed he’d been ignored.
3. “Parnell was a different generation ,long dead and Collins and Griffith were collegues.But an impressive list of Irish names pity your use of them just highlights a complete ignorance of Irish history.” True, but being unimportant makes them run together. You’re right, Parnell long dead.
4. “The civil rights march was attacked by loyalists…..” etc. The people of Northern Island were under constant attack by the IRA – please don’t pretend they were gone – and whether deserved or not, the violence was not invented by the North.
“Not so. We had slavery in Ireland ,only we were the slaves to the British Empire.” Victimization inflation again. You were treated like hell, being “white apes” in their eyes (Samuel Johnson didn’t think Highland Scots were human either…), but slaves?
6. “Who's whinging now?You got your chance to prove those accusations false and utterly failed.” Will leave that to readers. Quite the opposite.
7. “Well having admitted that the English are better men than the Scots” I never said that. I said England was a stronger country and civilization. “ I'd say you are far too biased to judge.But just one point just look at the s**** they left behind them in India,Palastine,Zimbawe,Iraq,Iran,Ireland.” Yeah, a common language, courts, interest in actual representative government, militaries that inspired respect and affection from the native soldiers, stability unknown before. “Do you remember when they tried to take back the Suez canal?” Yes, France and Britain, who had built it. “The conquences of Britian's exploitation of third world countries[Note none in Europe]and their bloody Empire are still with us to day.” Yeah, basket cases like the US, Canada, Australia, South Africa, the horror is endless.
8. “Well whatever bastard race did it ,it took them about 400 years to complete the job.And no sooner had they got it done than it all seemed to come apart.” It was never together, it was never completed due to lack of interest, and how strangely important the racial makeup is to you. If anyone had wanted to take Ireland apart, kill all the people, there was nothing to stop it. King Leopold of Belgium, given his druthers, would have.
9. “Your not listening to me DC.You can't judge Ireland of the middle ages by the standards of the 21st century.Brutal and vicious was the order of the day.Guess what one your King Henrys did to the French Knights captured at Agincourt?You know they even had a "hundred years war"back then.” Yes, Wild, you miss my point, which is that Ireland’s history is every bit as scurrilous as everyone else’s, not on a higher plane, and different only in it’s lack of accomplishment either protecting or serving the people till it adapted the institutions of its supposed enemy. That the US and Britain were not more than better than average protecting other nations does not empower Ireland to sneer. Virtually no other nation would have taken the risk. Ireland never has.
10. “I'm talking about a country which used nukes.So the actual using of nukes to solve a military problem was no big deal for the US.So they have this problem with Hitler mark 2 and they don't even say boo.” They had many problems, and after using the nukes and understanding them better, they weren’t about to do it again if possible. See? We learn.
11. “You misunderstood.I was not suggesting thet the parlimentry system was Irish only that a section of Irish patriots had a tradition of contitutional politics as opposed to those who used armed force.” I didn’t misunderstand. You may have miswritten in your continual attempts to blend issues to escape. And what section had a “tradition” of constitutional politics?
12. “No it isn't what ?go on I'm listening” There is no distinction between geographical and political for those terms.
13. “How understanding of you.10 months of war ,lotsa slack.800 Years of war ,vicious thugs.Please Sir could you not spare just a little slack for the Micks.” Not when they say 10 months when it was four years and a quarter million dead (just the US) and it’s not like they were sitting on their butts. They saved a lot of people, not just the Nazis you treated as our equals.
14. “Take your finger off the scale old buddy.” Don’t have to. The side with Ireland is always found wanting.
15. “I would have to check the figures but I guess what you are trying to indicate in a very pedantic way is that there is an underlying dysfunctional problem in Irish society.Now I shall let you expand this point and if I cant find a similar problem in American society then you shall have the point.” I have the point. Per capita, the suicide rate for the young in Ireland is way above the same age group here (it’s not low here). This is important because it flenses out those who end their lives because of age or sickness. Ireland’s government has formed a committee and it’s received much coverage. http://www.nehb.ie/nehb/publications/reports/suicideinirl.pdf or
http://www.irlfunds.org/ireland/news_15.html
Suicide is the leading cause of death among your young men. Fourth overall behind cancer and heart stuff. Not murder. Suicide. I’m sure they just haven’t gotten enough rousing stories of the heroic Civil War (which you ignore) and the various Risings, or know enough verses of The Rising of the Moon. Maybe they’re just sick of being surrounded by all that garbage. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2005 : 1:01:15 PM
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Here is another Scot for you,George Galloway.
Never heard of him ? come today you will !! |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 17 2005 : 5:02:51 PM
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Sure. You just stopped keeping records.
That's not a reply.
By the way, the most violent county per capita in the United States, from colonial times to the present, was settled by Scot/Irish immigrants in South Carolina. Huh.
The Scot/Irish are the same race of people as the loyalists who were planted in Ulster in 1608.Huh.
“The civil rights march was attacked by loyalists…..” etc. The people of Northern Island were under constant attack by the IRA – please don’t pretend they were gone – and whether deserved or not, the violence was not invented by the North.
The North of Ireland was a festering bigoted secterian police state.It was ruled by a Government who held onto power by gerrymander.The RIC AND B Specials were protestant political armed forces.Education ,jobs and housing were all controled and functioned to favour the loyalists.Nationalists were second class citizens in their own country.In 1968 a single loyalist girl was granted a house ahead of a homeless nationalist family.The local nationalist politician squated in the house in protest.From this minior incident the civil rights movement grew.The government in order to stamp it out banned all protest marches.Where they occured they responded with brute force.
There was no IRA in 1968 they were formed as a direct result of the brutality of the Loyalist Government.
but slaves?
In the Caribbean and the penal colonies of Australia.
. Yeah, a common language, courts, interest in actual representative government, militaries that inspired respect and affection from the native soldiers, stability unknown before.
A system which was used to exploit third world countries and hold them in bondage.And you present it as if it were humanitarian assistance .And what a price they had to pay for it.
Yeah, basket cases like the US, Canada, Australia, South Africa, the horror is endless.
Ya see there they succeeded in wiping out the indigenous population.They tried it here in Ireland but were only partly successful in the North.
different only in it’s lack of accomplishment either protecting or serving the people till it adapted the institutions of its supposed enemy.
All development as a political entity stopped in 1170.The opportunity to develope those institutions you speak of were for the next 800 years stiffled by a brutal oppressor with their penal laws ethnic cleansing and plantations.
That the US and Britain were not more than better than average protecting other nations does not empower Ireland to sneer.
Protect my arse.Nice job they did in protecting British oil interests in Iran.Subjected the Iranians to a rule of tyranny every bit as brutal as SH in Iraq.
They had many problems, and after using the nukes and understanding them better, they weren’t about to do it again if possible. See? We learn
Well if McArthur had had his way the Chinese might have been on the reciving end of a nuke or two.
But seriously the US used Japan as a demonstration of its power.Those two crackers just had to be shown off to the world and the Japs were a perfect target the likes of which they might never get again.No prob with world opinion propaganda saw to that.As you say it was a racist war and the Japs were seen as a brutal subspecies.Who would shed a tear?
And what section had a “tradition” of constitutional politics?Parnell and then Redmond who led his followers off to fight on the Somme and Mons for Homerule.And what did he get for his loyalty?The Black and Tans.
“No it isn't what ?go on I'm listening” There is no distinction between geographical and political for those terms.
What is the name for that island which comprises England,Wales and Scotland?
Per capita, the suicide rate for the young in Ireland is way above the same age group here (it’s not low here).
Per capita the murder rate in the US is greater than in Ireland.
Per capita drug abuse is greater than in Ireland.
Per capita marriage break up is greater than in Ireland.
Per capita obesity is greater than in Ireland.
Per capita the number of school shootings is greater than in Ireland.
Per capita Bolder Colorado has more child "beauty queens"than in Ireland.[oops I think they lost one] |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 18 2005 : 12:08:35 PM
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"Per capita obesity is greater than in Ireland."
I just cancelled that order for a pizza. |
Bob Bostwick |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 19 2005 : 04:50:19 AM
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Here is another Scot for you,George Galloway.
Well done that man.Scotland the brave.
I just cancelled that order for a pizza
Go on take it.You can always start tomorrow. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 20 2005 : 1:48:17 PM
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Wild:
1. "That's not a reply." It is, and it's true. "The Scot/Irish are the same race of people as the loyalists who were planted in Ulster in 1608.Huh." Huh. They're not a race, a word that rushes to your lips often enough. Second, in the US Scotch/Irish just means Scotch or Irish or Scotch and Irish. And there's both Catholic and Protestant in there.
2. Yes. The wand was waved and the IRA vanished. Their weapons as well. The north was a crappy place to be if you were a Republican or a Catholic, and not much better for the loyalists. I don't see the gerrymander. In any case, the six counties had been conquered and were ruled by Protestants, and it cannot be said that they were any worse to the Catholics than the Republic was to the Protestants still there, can it? Depends who's whining on the stories you get.
3. There certainly was an IRA in 1968; I attended enough St. Paddy's Day parades in Boston, and they collected money from the crowd. No, they did not wear armbands saying "Illegal IRA Bag Man" but they were. They re-emerged when they felt they could take on the government in Ulster. It's that sort of pretend that infuriates.
4. "In the Caribbean and the penal colonies of Australia." Gee, that's a large step down from your initial remark. Grotesque exaggeration.
5. "A system which was used to exploit third world countries and hold them in bondage." All 'systems' do that. In the British system you had an official voice in theory and often in fact, something new in theocracies and warlord cesspits. "And you present it as if it were humanitarian assistance." Not remotely, another example of your persistence in creating fake straw dogs. "And what a price they had to pay for it." A lesser one than the options, in general.
6. "Ya see there they succeeded in wiping out the indigenous population.They tried it here in Ireland but were only partly successful in the North." Your fabrications, now clearly in the column of deliberate falsehood. What mass die offs there were in the new world were by unintentional disease. Name one colony where the British "wiped out" an indiginous population at all? One. They never tried in Ireland, although there were elements perfectly willing to see it happen. What did the Irish live on pre-potato, Wild? Until the famine, had Irish populations bloomed or wilted under the horrid British?
7. "All development as a political entity stopped in 1170." Wrong. In any case, India, the US, Canada, Australia etc. managed to continue to develop. Tell us what the stage of civilization and political advance the Irish just before the Plantagenets kicked their butts? "The opportunity to develope those institutions you speak of were for the next 800 years stiffled by a brutal oppressor with their penal laws ethnic cleansing and plantations." Nonsense. A ridiculously parochial and divided island spent those 800 years selling each other out for transient reward in direct insult to those scribbling Irish monks who, quite literally, saved all history of European civilization with the Moors and Saracens. You were an island of pretentious clans and gangs, like everywhere, only you couldn't unite. You'd rather see your enemy in chains next to you than run the risk of letting him be King over you. Just like the Native Americans and Scots.
8. "Protect my arse.Nice job they did in protecting British oil interests in Iran.Subjected the Iranians to a rule of tyranny every bit as brutal as SH in Iraq." Not even excused by hyperbole. What was there before, and gee, look what came after. Ireland in turbans.
9. "Well if McArthur had had his way the Chinese might have been on the reciving end of a nuke or two." Correct, and that's why Truman fired him when he demanded to have that option.
10. "But seriously the US used Japan as a demonstration of its power.Those two crackers just had to be shown off to the world and the Japs were a perfect target the likes of which they might never get again.No prob with world opinion propaganda saw to that.As you say it was a racist war and the Japs were seen as a brutal subspecies.Who would shed a tear?" Nobody did, then, till Hersey. But you exaggerate the venality of the US. If we wanted to, we could have just surrounded the island and nuked every city in turn through the years.
You continually fail the St. SImone test. The Duke hated Louis XIV of France because he had beaten down the nobility and ruled without them. St. Simone kept a list of every failure of the King, every slight to himself, every demonstration of the Sun King's overwhelming power. It never seems to have occured to him that Louis, if anywhere near as bad and brutal as Simone claimed, would have - he certainly could have - slaughtered or imprisoned boneheads like Simone and taken their estates. Instead, Louis very obviously inflicted his pomp on the court not solely for his vanity but because it shocked and awed the aristocracy into subservience without violence and social upheaval.
Louis is presented as excessive, but what historians continually point out is his restraint in comparison with his power, and that this restraint was based on a rather intelligent reading of what was best for the nation and what kept things in line. Really, what more could a king in a time of ignorance be expected to do?
11. "And what section had a “tradition” of constitutional politics?Parnell and then Redmond who led his followers off to fight on the Somme and Mons for Homerule.And what did he get for his loyalty?The Black and Tans." So, comes to it, no tradition but ad hoc action. You do this a lot, grandiose inflation of a single action into a "traditon." Which, in any case, is an action that has nothing to do with constitutional politics.
12. "What is the name for that island which comprises England,Wales and Scotland?" The British Isles, United Kingdom, Great Britain.
"Per capita the murder rate in the US is greater than in Ireland." True, but I believe our stats and don't believe other nations' are accurate. Still, this is true.
"Per capita drug abuse is greater than in Ireland." Oh? Isn't alcohol a drug anymore?
"Per capita marriage break up is greater than in Ireland." That's because you can't get divorced by law, can you? Recent, if so.
"Per capita obesity is greater than in Ireland." Verify that. Have no trouble believing it, but I'll bet you're guessing.
"Per capita the number of school shootings is greater than in Ireland." That's true. How do the schools compare for learning?
"Per capita Bolder Colorado has more child "beauty queens"than in Ireland.[oops I think they lost one}" True, but then the Ramseys are Irish.
Even with those telling stats, who's moving to Ireland? Lots of Irish come here. Huh. Despite the crime and all. And your kids off themselves rather that continue living there or with each other. Mystifying. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 20 2005 : 6:42:44 PM
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I imagine DC that most people would prefer to be operated on for hemrodies without an annaesthetic in public than to read Irish history.And your unequal struggle with the subject is making matters even more painful.
Scotch/Irish is a recognised historical term for a distinct race of people who by the way provided the US with according to google 25% of its presidents.[DC try making a modicum of research before using terms you are not familiar with]
I don't see the gerrymander.
Ownership of property gave extra voting rights[and guess who had the property] and the constituances were so arranged that 500000 loyalists got 20 representitives while the same number of nationalists got 5 representitives.[that is just an example I don't have the exact figures.
I attended enough St. Paddy's Day parades in Boston,
Now don't tell me.You had on a big green hat with a badge saying "kiss me I'm Irish. Ya poor man.
"A system which was used to exploit third world countries and hold them in bondage." All 'systems' do that.
All imperialist systems do that
In the British system you had an official voice in theory and often in fact, something new in theocracies and warlord cesspits. "And you present it as if it were humanitarian assistance." Not remotely, another example of your persistence in creating fake straw dogs. "And what a price they had to pay for it." A lesser one than the options, in general.
These are just generalities with no examples or anything to support them.
Name one colony where the British "wiped out" an indiginous population at all? One.
The Narragansetts
Until the famine, had Irish populations bloomed or wilted under the horrid British?
Well in 1741 under the horrid British the population of 2.5 million fell by 400000.
he US, Canada, Australia etc. managed to continue to develop.
The indiginious population????????
And as for India it was reduced from a first world country to an impoverished third world country.
Tell us what the stage of civilization and political advance the Irish just before the Plantagenets kicked their butts?
A great deal more advanced than the Anglo Saxons before Willy kicked their butts
in direct insult to those scribbling Irish monks who, quite literally, saved all history of European civilization with the Moors and Saracens.
And just what kind of "barbaric" society could foster such
scolarship?
Not even excused by hyperbole. What was there before, and gee, look what came after. Ireland in turbans.
What I posted was factual.You offer nothing to refute it other than an other one of your silly generalisations.
You continually fail the St. SImone test
No idea what you are talking about.
You do this a lot, grandiose inflation of a single action into a "traditon." Which, in any case, is an action that has nothing to do with constitutional politics.
There was a tradition of constitutional politics in Ireland going back to the 1770 to the patriot party,but it should be understood that nowhere in the Europe was there majority rule which was synonymous with mob rule.
The British Isles, United Kingdom, Great Britain.
How could an Island be called Isles.The British Isles refers to both Islands.The UK refers to the political entity of Wales,Scotland.England and Northern Ireland and Great Britian refers to England,Wales and Scotland.
but I'll bet you're guessing
Sure but from what I'v seen you lot are doomed.
Even with those telling stats, who's moving to Ireland?
Everyone and his granny.
Mystifying[/b][/i]
Not really.The US is the default position of the humanity.That is where the dynamic in human nature is taking us all.If I want to see what Ireland will be like in 10 years I just have to look at Uncle Sam.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 21 2005 : 3:05:31 PM
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1. "I imagine DC that most people would prefer to be operated on for hemrodies..." It is painful, isn't it? Nobody deserves Ireland's history. Except the Irish.
2. "Scotch/Irish is a recognised historical term for a distinct race..." Show me where science - which, having proven race is a meaningless term - has ever called the Scots or the Irish a "race," which is not a nationality. We can just file that alongside your clear assumption that the meaning of "aborigine" was a racial slur.
3. "Ownership of property gave extra voting rights[and guess who had the property] and the constituances were so arranged that 500000 loyalists got 20 representitives while the same number of nationalists got 5 representitives.[that is just an example I don't have the exact figures." That's not a gerrymander. A gerrymander is moving the lines of voting districts into absurd shapes for political advantage to compensate for other issues. They term arose when one such abortion resembled a salamander. Was this the case? No.
4. "Now don't tell me.You had on a big green hat with a badge saying "kiss me I'm Irish. Ya poor man." Not hardly. We're Scots. We went for the pipers. And we were hit on for money.
5. "All imperialist systems do that." And all others: communist, socialist, monarchial, incompetent and competent alike. See, before you denied there was an Empire, now you need it to be Imperial during those years. Most didn't have the extortion capabilities of the IRA in raising money under physical threat in the US.
6. "These are just generalities with no examples or anything to support them." No, they're not. The Irish were the big failures under Britain, the nations I keep reading off are huge successes. By a large percentage, being an English colony was a good deal in the long run.
7. "The Narragansetts." Date. Event of the slaughter. There are still people claiming to be Narragansetts applying for Rhode Island gaming licenses. Disease, not British slaughter in any case.
8. "Well in 1741 under the horrid British the population of 2.5 million fell by 400000." No, Wild. The population of Ireland from when Henry II conquered it grew by how much under the British? So much, that the overpopulation of Ireland got to the point where it could not feed itself and was such a sick joke that Swift's Modest Proposal was barely read as satire. This on fecund land.
9. "e indiginious population????????" Again, Wild, because you have to excuse the lameness that are the Irish and their history, you fabricate horrors to use as metaphor. The indiginous populations of the Americas died of disease, not the British, and they had no objection to slavery and conquest themselves, because they practiced it like everyone else.
10. "And as for India it was reduced from a first world country to an impoverished third world country." India was never a first world country because it wasn't a country at all until the British got there, gave them a common language and unifying aspects. All the great architecture, food, martial history is Mongol, not Hindu, until the British took over by playing off the idiot and feudal tribal chiefs against each other, similar to which also worked in Ireland.
11. "A great deal more advanced than the Anglo Saxons before Willy kicked their butts." No. Far more squalid. Hastings was the second major battle Harold fought in weeks and at opposite ends of the nation, a journey covered on foot. Examples of the High Culture of Ireland before the English kicked the Irish around for fun and profit? Admit it. England elevated the Irish.
12. "And just what kind of "barbaric" society could foster such
scolarship?" A monastic one hiding from the barbarity around them, as removed from native culture as the monks in the Alps. And gone by Henry II.
13. "What I posted was factual.You offer nothing to refute it other than an other one of your silly generalisations." Not true. Readers can refer.
14. "No idea what you are talking about." I believe you, even though explained in detail.
15. "There was a tradition of constitutional politics in Ireland going back to the 1770 to the patriot party,but it should be understood that nowhere in the Europe was there majority rule which was synonymous with mob rule." What tradition, by who, as exemplified by what? Nonsense.
16. "How could an Island be called Isles.The British Isles refers to both Islands.The UK refers to the political entity of Wales,Scotland.England and Northern Ireland and Great Britian refers to England,Wales and Scotland." You forget the 1800 development where Ireland became part of England. And you ignore the Hebrides, the Channel Isles, the Shetlands. There are a zillion islands.
17. "Sure but from what I'v seen you lot are doomed." Unless Dublin has changed mightily, it's the home of pear shaped people conformed to bar stools.
18. "Everyone and his granny." Oh, yes, those people who look different that scare you.
19. "Not really.The US is the default position of the humanity.That is where the dynamic in human nature is taking us all.If I want to see what Ireland will be like in 10 years I just have to look at Uncle Sam." Wishful thinking. There is no place for the Bobby Sands redux and Gerry Adams Again in such a society. They won't go without a fight. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 22 2005 : 4:27:08 PM
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" It is painful, isn't it? Nobody deserves Ireland's history. Except the Irish.
Fellow masochist-----
Show me where science - which, having proven race is a meaningless term - has ever called the Scots or the Irish a "race," which is not a nationality.
My dictionary defines race as a group of people of common ancestry.However if you're more confortable with nation that's ok with me.But this nation who you claim runs amok in Carolina are not Irish.
That's not a gerrymander. A gerrymander is moving the lines of voting districts into absurd shapes for political advantage to compensate for other issues. They term arose when one such abortion resembled a salamander. Was this the case? No.
It was gerrymander.For example Derry which must be 75% nationalist was always controled by a loyalist mayor and council.[Read up on the civil rights campaign.]
We're Scots. We went for the pipers.
Ah so there still beats a Scotish heart in spite of that anglophile blether.
And do you remember what they played?The Galant Fortytwa,Let Eirn remember,The Black bear,Clare's Dragoons.Tunes of glory.And did the hair stand on the back of your neck and were you not just for one moment back in 45 when the clans flocked to the young Pretender's standard.It is no wonder your beloved Sasanachs the pipes them as weapons of war.
5. "All imperialist systems do that." And all others: communist, socialist, monarchial,
They are just systems DC.They are not explotative.
Most didn't have the extortion capabilities of the IRA in raising money under physical threat in the US.
In 1916 the volunteers put on uniforms and came out in open revolt.They lasted a week.The IRA have lasted 30 years.You see extortion as criminal?The US put a 500 pound bomb into a house they believed SH visiting.They wiped out a man's family.Was that criminal?
under Britain, the nations I keep reading off are huge successes. By a large percentage, being an English colony was a good deal in the long run.
For the colonists not for the natives.
"The Narragansetts." Date. Event of the slaughter.
Don't be greedy.You asked for one example just one.Without checking I think these were the people who sat down with the pilgrims at that first thanks giving.It seems the afters did not agree with them.
Disease, not British slaughter in any case.
British slaughter.
No, Wild. The population of Ireland from when Henry II conquered it grew by how much under the British? So much, that the overpopulation of Ireland got to the point where it could not feed itself and was such a sick joke that Swift's Modest Proposal was barely read as satire. This on fecund land.
The English governed Ireland.Any industry in Ireland which was seen as a competitor to that in England was taxed out of existance.Swifts satire was aimed at the British admistration which had reduced Ireland to penury.And as for agriculture we were not even allowed to own a horse.
When the British were eventualy driven out of Ireland they left behind a devastated country.The slums of Dublin were compaired to that other Utopia of British rule Calcutta.Infant mortality rate was on a par with the worst anywhere in the world and TB was rampant.
The indiginous populations of the Americas died of disease, not the British,
They slaughtered the survivors.
and they had no objection to slavery and conquest themselves, because they practiced it like everyone else.
So this great benign civilised christian force for good and the improvement of mankind indulged in the same shenanigans as stone age tribes?
India was never a first world country because it wasn't a country at all until the British got there, gave them a common language and unifying aspects. All the great architecture, food, martial history is Mongol, not Hindu, until the British took over by playing off the idiot and feudal tribal chiefs against each other, similar to which also worked in Ireland.
Conquest and the military subjugation of a people seems to be your measure of civilisation and greatness.
England elevated the Irish.
What do you call it in the States? Tough love.And it took the form of beuts such as Cromwell.
A monastic one hiding from the barbarity around them, as removed from native culture as the monks in the Alps. And gone by Henry II.
Yes a monastic one which flourished for 400 years under the protection and patronage of the Gaelic chiefs until devasted by the Vikings.
Of course according to you these Monks arrived from mars and were not part of a scolastic Celtic culture.You cannot even allow us our own culture.
"No idea what you are talking about." I believe you, even though explained in detail.
Oh now I see.We are supposed to be grateful for British restraint?
What tradition, by who, as exemplified by what? Nonsense.
Daniel O'Connell and Catholic emancipation.Do you need other examples of constitutional politics in Ireland?
You forget the 1800 development where Ireland became part of England. And you ignore the Hebrides, the Channel Isles, the Shetlands. There are a zillion islands.
I asked you for the name of the Island comprising England Wales and Scotland.You failed to supply one.
Ireland was never part of England no more than Scotland was.
17. "Sure but from what I'v seen you lot are doomed." Unless Dublin has changed mightily, it's the home of pear shaped people conformed to bar stools.
Ya got a 10 year bum start.
"Everyone and his granny." Oh, yes, those people who look different that scare you.
Scare as in we are not going last much longer as an homogenous nation.
Wishful thinking.
I'm not wishing. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 22 2005 : 5:55:58 PM
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"Fellow masochist-----" I'm a sadist. I never hurt masochists.
"My dictionary defines race as a group of people of common ancestry.However if you're more confortable with nation that's ok with me." What's your dictionary? "But this nation who you claim runs amok in Carolina are not Irish." No, they're American and they are descended from Scots and Irish.
"It was gerrymander.For example Derry which must be 75% nationalist was always controled by a loyalist mayor and council." That's not a gerrymander, Wild. It's a screw deal, but it isn't a gerrymander unless the voting district border is contorted beyond sense.
"Ah so there still beats a Scotish heart in spite of that anglophile blether." Indoor concerts by bagpipes are banned by Geneva. They're fun to play, and sound great outside.....at a distance......
"And do you remember what they played?The Galant Fortytwa,Let Eirn remember,The Black bear,Clare's Dragoons.Tunes of glory.And did the hair stand on the back of your neck and were you not just for one moment back in 45 when the clans flocked to the young Pretender's standard.It is no wonder your beloved Sasanachs the pipes them as weapons of war." I have no idea except Over the Sea to Skye was not one. Nor Amazing Grace, thank god. Bonnie Prince Charley would have been a terrible King of anything. My hair stands on end listening to all this Walter Scott claptrap and lust for blood over, really, nothing.
"They are just systems DC.They are not explotative." Bullblather. Mercantilism, slavery, all of that came from Kings and oligarchs long before capitalism, which as a system cannot have power so centered. Fenian nonsense.
"In 1916 the volunteers put on uniforms and came out in open revolt.They lasted a week. The IRA have lasted 30 years.You see extortion as criminal? The US put a 500 pound bomb into a house they believed SH visiting.They wiped out a man's family.Was that criminal?" Who is SH, when was this incident? Is it true or melodramatic claptrap? And by the way? By definition, extortion is criminal.
"For the colonists not for the natives." Better than left to themselves or other colonial powers. Again, Europe conquered the New World with the help of natives who despised the current rulers more than the Spanish, who all in all treated them better than the Aztecs and Incas.
"Don't be greedy.You asked for one example just one.Without checking I think these were the people who sat down with the pilgrims at that first thanks giving.It seems the afters did not agree with them." I'm not greedy. I asked for one. You can't provide it because such never existed. You've accused people of genocide with no basis. The Narrangansetts have a few websites. NO tribes were slaughtered out of existence, including the Mohicans, Last Of.
"British slaughter." One example, Wild.
"The English governed Ireland.Any industry in Ireland which was seen as a competitor to that in England was taxed out of existance.Swifts satire was aimed at the British admistration which had reduced Ireland to penury....etc." Reduced Ireland to penury. Right. It's simple, Wild. Just prove that Ireland was richer and safer before Britain came, then explain the huge population explosion over the centuries if the Irish were so put upon, then explain how such a country could starve when one (1) crop failed.
"They slaughtered the survivors." No, they did not. "So this great benign civilised christian force for good and the improvement of mankind indulged in the same shenanigans as stone age tribes?" Again with the straw dog. But, yes. Just like the Irish in their few moments of sober competence in an exaggerated past.
"Conquest and the military subjugation of a people seems to be your measure of civilisation and greatness." Only compared to monumental incompetence, petty if bloody internecine warfare, administrative incompetence, and a compassion for others located solely in their own literature and absent from history.
"What do you call it in the States? Tough love.And it took the form of beuts such as Cromwell." How odd everybody else was smart enough to learn and build on England's presence.
"Yes a monastic one which flourished for 400 years under the protection and patronage of the Gaelic chiefs until devasted by the Vikings." Yes, the monks remaining works are full of grateful thanks to the Gaellic chiefs....well, no, quite the opposite. The Chiefs had such small forces they couldn't take an abby of tubercular monks if they got the drop on them. Besides, Wild, those same Vikings attacked England and roosted up north where they eventually produced me. England doesn't whine and blame the Vikings, somehow.
"Oh now I see.We are supposed to be grateful for British restraint?" Given everything in the long run, yes. Any other European power would have slaughtered you with no hesitation for all the money, time, and attention you soaked up and didn't apply to what you said you would. The Scots no longer bitch about the Bans as a cause for problems, but the Irish have a long list. Always somebody else's fault, never their own.
"Daniel O'Connell and Catholic emancipation.Do you need other examples of constitutional politics in Ireland?" Yes, that isn't one. A tradition has a long history, and a constitutional one. You don't have one.
"I asked you for the name of the Island comprising England Wales and Scotland.You failed to supply one." Correct, I supplied three, all accurate.
"Ireland was never part of England no more than Scotland was." Sure it was. Reps in Parliament, the whole deal.
"Ya got a 10 year bum start." Eh?
"Scare as in we are not going last much longer as an homogenous nation." Oh you poor things. Welcome to the rest of the world. "I'm not wishing." You're not thinking, either. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 23 2005 : 08:16:22 AM
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Fellow masochist-----" I'm a sadist. I never hurt masochists.Ha,I like it.One for you.
No, they're American and they are descended from Scots and Irish.No you posted Scotch/Irish. Different species.The "Irish" just indicates that they once had settled in Ireland.Those who remained are just as bad as their Carolina cousins.
but it isn't a gerrymander unless the voting district border is contorted beyond sense.
The borders were set up to ensure a loyalist majority.A gerrymander just as the 6 counties was based on ensureing a loyalist majority.
Bonnie Prince Charley would have been a terrible King of anything.
I know ,his bloody father left us in the lurch
"They are just systems DC.They are not explotative." Bullblather. Mercantilism, slavery, all of that came from Kings and oligarchs long before capitalism, which as a system cannot have power so centered. Fenian nonsense.A system is just a system.None of the systems you named are explotative in themselves.It all depends on the government whether the system is used for good or evil.
As for capitalism not concentrating power,5% of the population of the US own 90% of its wealth.[figures approx].Power in the US is concentrated in the hands of the Coca-Cola company who own the presidency.
Who is SH,Saddam Hussein
when was this incident?
Early days of the invasion.
Is it true
Yes.The father asked would Bush have done the same if his own family was in the building.
or melodramatic claptrap?
Would you ask if it was melodramatic if I had used the example of the abuse at Abu Ghraib.?
And by the way? By definition, extortion is criminal.
All actions taken by an invading army ingaged in an illegal war are criminal.
"For the colonists not for the natives." Better than left to themselves or other colonial powers. Again, Europe conquered the New World with the help of natives who despised the current rulers more than the Spanish, who all in all treated them better than the Aztecs and Incas.
You use degrees of barbarity to make your case.An advanced militaristic predator nation exploited a stoneage civilization.The degree of barbarity is no defence.
I'm not greedy. I asked for one. You can't provide it because such never existed. You've accused people of genocide with no basis. The Narrangansetts have a few websites. NO tribes were slaughtered out of existence, including the Mohicans, Last Of.
1675.Innocent peaceful Narrangansetts attacked and over 600 killed.In the resulting war the Narrangansetts were reduced to less than 100 individuals most of those being shipped to the Caribbean as slaves.
"British slaughter." One example, Wild.
See above
Reduced Ireland to penury. Right. It's simple, Wild. Just prove that Ireland was richer and safer before Britain came,
Our Celtic civilization was under constant attack from the Vickings.These were eventually seen off at the Battle of clontarf in 1014.But the arrival of the Normans began a new age of conflict.
then explain the huge population explosion over the centuries if the Irish were so put upon, then explain how such a country could starve when one (1) crop failed.
It is a very interesting question.The population of first world countries are stagnant .In fact some such as Germany have falling populations and this under perfact peaceful conditions.While on the other hand third world countries have teeming populations.Perhaps it's natures way of preserving a species which is threatened with extinction.In Ireland the arrival of the potato had a hugh influence on population growth.And of course reliance on one crop was a desaster waiting to happen.
The policy of the British admistration was not to interfere and ships laden to the gunnels with food left Irish ports for the Empire.
Their policy was not to feed the starving population unless they undertook some form of work so even to this day there are stone roads going nowhere and stone walls running up the sides of mountains for no purpose.
Only compared to monumental incompetence, petty if bloody internecine warfare, administrative incompetence, and a compassion for others located solely in their own literature and absent from history.
Well at least that's honest.You equate a competant killing machine with predator tendencies to civilization.Attila the Hun versus the monks of Glenstall Abbey.
England doesn't whine and blame the Vikings, somehow.
You tried to lay the blame for the demise of the monasteries on the Gaelic Chiefs.Just correcting you by pointing out that it was infact the constant raids by the Vikings.
Given everything in the long run, yes. Any other European power would have slaughtered you with no hesitation for all the money, time, and attention you soaked up and didn't apply to what you said you would. The Scots no longer bitch about the Bans as a cause for problems, but the Irish have a long list. Always somebody else's fault, never their own.
There's a slight fault in that arguement DC.As things could always be worse we should always be in a state of gratetude.And no better man than yoursely to express Scotish gratitude to their conquerers even to the extent of proclaining them better men {than I Gunga Din }.
"Daniel O'Connell and Catholic emancipation.Do you need other examples of constitutional politics in Ireland?" Yes, that isn't one.
Why?
"I asked you for the name of the Island comprising England Wales and Scotland.You failed to supply one." Correct, I supplied three, all accurate.
The Island has a name what is it?
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 23 2005 : 10:32:22 AM
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For those wondering "what the hell?" this is an ongoing argument I've had with Wild about his tendency to inflate and exaggerate, tendencies that are given full rein in Irish history and produced a canon of myth and garbage of no particular inspirational value nor handy for current days, being often untrue and having its share of melodramatic 'recognition scenes' from European history with their heroes pasted in. Everyone does it.
I claim this as close to what Native Americans have done and been allowed to do, partly out of guilt and convenience. Both claim to be put upon yet never conquered, but betrayed. But both Ireland and Native America were nothing if not conquered utterly in every way.
This is exactly what Germany surrendered to between its World Wars. Betrayal, lawyers, treason, and because the Germans thought they hadn't lost on the battlefield, they tried again. Didn't work out. They were forced, unlike the Japanese, to admit their past and condemn it, have more or less made peace with it, and have moved on and up. The German Army is well regarded for its competence today.
I watched Russell Means and his overweight thugs escort Ward Churchill in to make a speech last winter and my reaction was utterly different from what those Sioux thought they were generating, which was impress and intimidate. Only a phalanx of papal Swiss Guards in their fey and ancient uniforms with pikes could have looked less intimidating or impressive. Their military history is one of numerous utter defeats.
Wild also implants recognition scenes in his postings, with no intent to deceive, with no bad heart, but bogus still. Witnesses to stirring re-enactments of the Light Brigade (which was less impressive than he suggested) have to be beheld by "not a dry eye in the house." No evidence, unlikely, so what? anyway, but he felt the tale needed that.
I submit that this sort of thing happened a lot with Custer and even today obvious recognition scenes from literature and myth are argued over for degrees of truth, when there clearly is none, for truth was not the goal of the teller, but a 'greater truth' of racial/national/religious import that varies in different years.
I know most people realize this to greater or mostly lesser extent, but for all the talk and blather about "finding out what happened" they really just want to impart their own combination of psychoses on the battle to make themselves feel better. And they're not honest about it.
Anyway......back to Wild.
"No you posted Scotch/Irish." I posted Scotch/Irish IMMIGRANTs. While it's true that nationalist idiots insist upon the conquerors of Northern Ireland being distinct from mere Irish, here in American the term is long worn down - as I said - to mean just Scot/Irish/Scot-Irish/Black Irish/ the Carlisle family who stayed in Edinburgh for a semester.
"The borders were set up to ensure a loyalist majority.A gerrymander just as the 6 counties was based on ensureing a loyalist majority." You're reading an Irish position paper (and not giving attribution). Show me the map that produced a gerrymander of a voting district in Northern Island. Not doubting the nationalists got screwed, but it wasn't by deformed voting district.
"I know ,his bloody father left us in the lurch." So why should eyes weep at his loss? That was a stupid, stupid war.
"A system is just a system.None of the systems you named are explotative in themselves.It all depends on the government whether the system is used for good or evil." You insisted capitalism was exploitive. It isn't any more than anything else.
"As for capitalism not concentrating power,5% of the population of the US own 90% of its wealth.[figures approx].Power in the US is concentrated in the hands of the Coca-Cola company who own the presidency." The Federal government - the heroic people - owns most of the material wealth, and those smoke figures are based on securities ownership. This defies comment. If someone comes out with a superior computer that is cheaper and doesn't use Windows, Bill Gates MS stock is worth nada. It's America's pretend world of virile individualism, but its equalled by state socialism and corporate protections. America is as socialist as not. Proof? Try and get rid of farm subsidies.... Or any of our extensive and corrupting subsidies.
"Who is SH,Saddam Hussein" And what does he or the US have to do to the first part of your sentence, in 1916 Ireland, referencing extortion?
"All actions taken by an invading army ingaged in an illegal war are criminal." There's no such thing as illegal or legal wars. That is claptrap. International Law has no standing beyond public relations.
"You use degrees of barbarity to make your case.An advanced militaristic predator nation exploited a stoneage civilization.The degree of barbarity is no defence." Sure it is. Spain was no more a predator nation than the ones it beat. You equate venal incompetence with spiritual/ethical superiority. Handy if you're trying to fluff up Ireland's centuries of failures.
"1675.Innocent peaceful Narrangansetts attacked and over 600 killed.In the resulting war the Narrangansetts were reduced to less than 100 individuals most of those being shipped to the Caribbean as slaves." Innocent of what? Peaceful? Ask their neighbors. You again exaggerate with those handy zeroes, and most went to Wisconsin. It would be easier to say you were utterly wrong and I was right. Not a single tribe in the Americas disappeared because of Euro war and slaughter, much less by British hands.
"Our Celtic civilization was under constant attack from the Vickings.These were eventually seen off at the Battle of clontarf in 1014.But the arrival of the Normans began a new age of conflict." Oh, you poor things! The Brits and the Irish Scotti moved to Scotland managed, like the Normans (who were Vikings), to utilize Viking blood when handy and, in any case, to defeat them and thrive. How come only Ireland never succeeds? Poor, poor Ireland. And again, population figures of your "Celtic" civilization, and death figures from the constant wars that always rendered Ireland meat on the table to anyone bored enough to invade.
"It is a very interesting question.The population of first world countries are stagnant. (No, they're not; but then you thought India was a first world nation till Britain....)In fact some such as Germany have falling populations and this under perfact peaceful conditions. (Overpopulation does that in intelligent peoples) While on the other hand third world countries have teeming populations. Perhaps it's natures way of preserving a species which is threatened with extinction." Or nature's way of setting up famine and die offs, as it the historic case, for idiot nations.
"In Ireland the arrival of the potato had a hugh influence on population growth.(You state that with such surety. A while back, you didn't seem to know the potato came from the new world....) And of course reliance on one crop was a desaster waiting to happen. The policy of the British admistration was not to interfere and ships laden to the gunnels with food left Irish ports for the Empire. (during the famine? what crops were there to ship? It was awful, I'm not making light, but what role did the Irish play in their own disaster?)
"Their policy was not to feed the starving population unless they undertook some form of work so even to this day there are stone roads going nowhere and stone walls running up the sides of mountains for no purpose. (Same in the US, having not much to do with starving populations but bureaucratic sludge. In any case, who held the gun to Irish farmers and made them plant only one crop, and that imported recently? No alternatives?)
"Well at least that's honest." No it isn't, you deny it. "You equate a competant killing machine with predator tendencies to civilization. Attila the Hun versus the monks of Glenstall Abbey." Ireland was the killing machine, slaughtering each other to no end to the dismay of the monks who, joy!, often welcomed invaders for the protection offered. (not the sharpest guys, the monks, but they were desperate). England was no Attila, who would simply have killed you all without a look back.
"You tried to lay the blame for the demise of the monasteries on the Gaelic Chiefs.Just correcting you by pointing out that it was infact the constant raids by the Vikings." And previous by the petty "chiefs" and Irish "Kings" seeking advantage over each other. Again, stats about population from this Golden Age?
"There's a slight fault in that arguement DC.As things could always be worse we should always be in a state of gratetude.And no better man than yoursely to express Scotish gratitude to their conquerers even to the extent of proclaining them better men {than I Gunga Din }." Never claimed them "better men." I claimed England a superior civilization, able to protect itself, feed itself, and in its off moments rule the world from a squalid city on the Thames, where most if not all Irish artists went. I can't think of a single area they conquered that didn't come out better or at least no worse. There's no shame in admitting it.
"Daniel O'Connell and Catholic emancipation.....etc ad nauseum. You said there was "a tradition" which implies sequential history to your claim. Not ad hoc mentions.
"The Island has a name what is it?" Now? The United Kingdom includes northern Ireland. Great Britain or Britain is usually used for the main island PLUS various others. There is no one term just for the main island excluding other smaller ones. At one time, Ireland was part of England, and ruled as such, and therefore fell under these other titles. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on May 23 2005 11:04:11 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 24 2005 : 12:45:17 PM
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As the Roman Empire fell,as all through Europe matted,unwashed barbarians descended on the Roman cities,looting artifacts and burning books,the Irish took up the great labor of copying all Western literature-everything they could get their hands on.These Celtic Scribes then served as conduits through which the Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian cultures were transmitted to the tribes of Europe.Without the mission of Irish monks ,who single-handedly refounded civilisation throughout the continent ,the world that came after them would have been entirely different.
This studious,collegiate and monastic culture was Celtic and Irish.It lasted longer and had a greater impact on history than the British Empire.The raison d'etre of the British empire being no different from that of the Vikings,rape and pillage while that of the Irish monks was the spread of learning,Christian philosophy and civilization.
DC draws heavely on Orwellian convoluted distortions to deny this celtic culture.He would have us believe that this celtic culture materialized out of nothing.Renewed and maintained itself for nign on half a millenium as a totally seperate entity.All DC will allow us is our sins.
And not to disappoint DC and to keep faith with his silly first year English Lit recognition scenes -----Having striped us of this remnant and mocked us Oh, you poor things! he places the crown of thorns white apesupon our heads.
this is an ongoing argument I've had with Wild about his tendency to inflate and exaggerate, tendencies that are given full rein in Irish history and produced a canon of myth and garbage of no particular inspirational value nor handy for current days,
Well then lets see if DC's view of history stands up to scrutiny.
often welcomed invaders for the protection offered.
Yar not suggesting they welcomed the crowd who sacked Rome?
The Narrangansetts were not obliterated by the Pilgrims because The Narrangansetts have a few websites.
The Scotch/Irish planters from Ulster who settled in the Carolinas miraculiously transmuted into Scots and Irish whereupon they immediately ran amok.
The Amerindians,Maori and Australian aboriginals are thanks to the British now soverign nations recognised by the UN.
International Law has no standing beyond public relations.This is DC's piece de resistance.Sure just like Yalta, Neurenburg was a public relations exercise.
He thinks Great Britian is a political entity and has no Idea what the larger [not main DC]island is called.So for your edification here it is.The British Isles consists of two large islands ,Great Britian and Ireland,and numerious smaller Islands located off the Northwest coast of mainland Europe.
I think that any fair minded person reading the above would advise DC to return to the "size of bullet" thread where his knowledge of "ballistics" is sorely missed.
Show me the map that produced a gerrymander of a voting district in Northern Island. Not doubting the nationalists got screwed, but it wasn't by deformed voting district.
You're right DC.An unfortunate accident which had 30000 nationalists in one district while 5000 loyalists occupied the other 10 districts.Funny they never altered them in this showpiece of British democracy.
" I claimed England a superior civilization, able to protect itself, feed itself, and in its off moments rule the world from a squalid city on the Thames,
Would the fact that it was an island of coal and iron have anything to do with it or do you think that if chance had placed them in the Amazon rain forests they would have done any better than the Lackynookies?
Rather than have me go through Irish contitutional history why not do it yourself.Start with Jonathan Swift taking in the Act of Union,Catholic emancipation,the land league,Parnell and home rule,and the first Dail.Then come back to me and we'll discuss it.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 24 2005 : 2:17:19 PM
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Wild,
I've read How the Irish Saved Civilization as well, but your hysteria reveals.....well, let's take it by sentence.
As the Roman Empire(which one?)fell(when are you claiming this happened?),as all through Europe matted,unwashed barbarians(as opposed the the sweet smelling, pedicured Irish monks?) descended on the Roman cities (seldom enough through the decades, given that the same tribes were part of the Roman Army),looting artifacts and burning books, the Irish (some monks only) took up the great labor of copying all Western literature -everything they could get their hands on. (True. They had to do something.) These Celtic Scribes(by the way? Some of the plunderers were Celt as well. So much for Celtic Civilization) then served as conduits through which the Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian cultures were transmitted to the tribes of Europe. (Just like the Moors did later and the Muslims were already doing in Damascus and Egypt. But you can't name any of these works without spending time looking them up, can you Wild?)
Without the mission (mission implies they were told "Save Western Civilization!" In reality, they were practicing their handwriting for Bible work copying books in languages most could not read.) of Irish monks ,who single-handedly (no...) refounded(No....) civilisation throughout the continent(like those invisible Irish academic backbones in Africa?),the world that came after them would have been entirely different. Well, yes......a Brazilian butterfly example. Everything changes everything.
This studious,collegiate and monastic culture was Celtic and Irish(as opposed to what other remote abbeys? Less Celtic than in was Catholic, Italian, and rare and, by the way? under attack by its own).
It lasted longer and had a greater impact on history than the British Empire(Here, you accept my description of England having an Empire long before they declared one. Previously, you did not. But, no, it didn't, hasn't, and won't. In any case, unlike other Empires, the British acknowledged these works and preserved them through the Reformation and Counter...something Vikings would not do nor most Irish, matted, unwashed and unread).
The raison d'etre of the British empire being no different from that of the Vikings,rape and pillage while that of the Irish monks was the spread of learning,Christian philosophy and civilization. (Utterly incorrect. Vikings were mere tribes without a centralized government who fought each other as much as pillaged coastal towns during the early years. They were better at it then their chronic Everlast Heavy Bag, Ireland. When they became Romanovs and Normans and MacLeods, Ireland hadn't moved much. England was far more civilized overall than either Vikings or Irish. It's from England that the Philosophes were inspired.) Further, they had no particular interest in spreading learned or Christianity but Catholic doctrine and power, for which they hoped to be rewarded with an Irish Pope.
DC draws heavely on Orwellian convoluted distortions (really? point out one and why it's Orwellian.) to deny this celtic culture. (No, I don't.) He would have us believe that this celtic culture materialized out of nothing. (Celt/Kelt is a meaningless term referring to many tribes at war with each other. Were the Picts, Franks, Irish celts? Some say yes, some no. What dif? What happened in the Irish abby was not due to the Kelts as much as the Church.) Renewed and maintained itself for nign on half a millenium as a totally seperate entity (Really, what five hundred year period are you addressing, Wild? Examples of this renewing?).
All DC will allow us is our sins. (The monks functioned separate from most of Ireland, as they do anywhere. They're typically Irish in the sense that the Windsors are typically English and not German.)
And not to disappoint DC and to keep faith with his silly first year English Lit recognition scenes -----Having striped us of this remnant and mocked us Oh, you poor things! he places the crown of thorns white apesupon our heads. (Your spelling and language skills - are you really descended from these Titans of Learning? - aside, you know nothing of first year English lit -or Gaellic, I'd wager - you can't help but compare yourself again to Christ. Talk about inflation....)
This is an ongoing argument I've had with Wild about his tendency to inflate and exaggerate, tendencies that are given full rein in Irish history and produced a canon of myth and garbage of no particular inspirational value nor handy for current days,
Well then lets see if DC's view of history stands up to scrutiny.
often welcomed invaders for the protection offered.
Yar not suggesting they welcomed the crowd who sacked Rome?(There were many "crowds" and in different centuries, but no, Wild, as I clearly wrote the Irish monks sometimes welcomed invaders because it might put them less at risk from their own. Here you deliberately try to confuse the unwary reader into thinking you didn't make another blunder.)
The Narrangansetts were not obliterated by the Pilgrims because The Narrangansetts have a few websites. (I never mentioned the Pilgrims - which you confuse with the actual Puritans - but the Narragansetts are still here and were not wiped out as you claimed.)
The Scotch/Irish planters from Ulster who settled in the Carolinas miraculiously transmuted into Scots and Irish whereupon they immediately ran amok. (Of course, I never said that. In the US the term Scotch/Irish can mean what it does in Ireland but also far more generalized to include Irish and/or Scot, who are correctly seen as virtually the same thing by most Americans. And that's what it means in that county - not "the Carolinas" today.
The Amerindians,Maori and Australian aboriginals are thanks to the British now soverign nations recognised by the UN. (Never said that, but quite the opposite. Amerindians are pretend nations.)
International Law has no standing beyond public relations.This is DC's piece de resistance.Sure just like Yalta, Neurenburg was a public relations exercise. (International law has no existence. It's vapor. No nation has pledged itself to it. Who makes it, Wild? I've never voted on it. Neither have you. It's a theory, alleged principles, and something to be worked for. Yalta was a treaty between nations, Nuremburg a trial by the conquering powers.)
He thinks Great Britian is a political entity (there are treaties signed in the name of Great Britain - learn to spell it, Wild) and has no Idea what the larger [not main DC]island is called. So for your edification here it is.The British Isles consists of two large islands ,Great Britian and Ireland,and numerious smaller Islands located off the Northwest coast of mainland Europe.(Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain. Huh. Sorry, losers. You're wrong. And you're not reminiscent of Christ, either.)
I think that any fair minded person reading the above would advise DC to return to the "size of bullet" thread where his knowledge of "ballistics" is sorely missed. (That's been solved. The ballistics are toys for people to play with. Had no effect on the battle whatsoever.)
Show me the map that produced a gerrymander of a voting district in Northern Island. Not doubting the nationalists got screwed, but it wasn't by deformed voting district.You're right DC.An unfortunate accident which had 30000 nationalists in one district while 5000 loyalists occupied the other 10 districts.Funny they never altered them in this showpiece of British democracy. (Let's see the map, not hear the myth, Wild. You said it was a gerrymander.)
" I claimed England a superior civilization, able to protect itself, feed itself, and in its off moments rule the world from a squalid city on the Thames,
Would the fact that it was an island of coal and iron have anything to do with it or do you think that if chance had placed them in the Amazon rain forests they would have done any better than the Lackynookies? (Of course it had something to do with it. So what? Are you saying that lack of those items prevented Ireland from being a meaningful nation? Japan has nearly nothing, and it's done okay, once unified and into trade. Of course, they recognized the British strengths and emulated them.)
Rather than have me go through Irish contitutional history why not do it yourself.Start with Jonathan Swift taking in the Act of Union,Catholic emancipation,the land league,Parnell and home rule,and the first Dail.Then come back to me and we'll discuss it. (Proof. No constitutional tradition. Give me the dates of your made up 'tradition', Wild. When it started. Whatever there is, it's from England.)
The poor, poor Irish. So sad. So touching. Such horseblather and whining and startling incompetence. Good stout, though, and some music, the McKrells being my current favorite. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 24 2005 : 7:38:52 PM
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DC draws heavely on Orwellian convoluted distortions (really? point out one and why it's Orwellian.)
In order to overcome historical facts which are a trifle inconvienent DC adopts a system of double speak as described in GW's 1984.It is inconvient to his "The poor, poor Irish. So sad. So touching. Such horseblather and whining and startling incompetence." view of history.He is of course unable like big brother to airbrush 500 critical years out of history.It sticks in his anglophile gullet to have to admit that while Europe had descended into chaos these Irish monks in their monastic settlements and proto universities were keeping civilization alive. So he concocts this bewildering theory that these monks were removed from Irish culture,were not members of the Irish nation,were not influenced by Irish culture,were not maintained by Irish communities .All to deprive us of this golden age.
We now come to part two of his Orwellian distortions.Confronted with with the stupidity and illogicality of this position he now turns on the monks themselves.He dismisses their saving of civilization as an unintentional consequence of their bible work.Of course in his ignorance of this subject he does not realise that these monks penetrated as far as Kiev.Their progress can be traced by the monasteries they founded right across Europe.
It lasted longer and had a greater impact on history than the British Empire(Here, you accept my description of England having an Empire long before they declared one.
Of course DC when you exhust your store of snide remarks by all means seek refuge in stupidity.The periods are not contemporaneous unless your Orwellian history book has the British Empire extending back to the fall of the Roman Empire.
England was far more civilized overall than either Vikings or Irish.You confuse Empire with nation.Now listen .The raison d'etre of the British empire being no different from that of the Vikings,rape and pillage.
(Celt/Kelt is a meaningless term referring to many tribes at war with each other.
Is it possible that you could concieve of other activites besides war?Art,religion,music,litrature[there's a thing now DC did you know that Ireland was one of a very few places where writing developed independently.Hope it does not give you indigestion]
The monks functioned separate from most of Ireland, as they do anywhere. They're typically Irish in the sense that the Windsors are typically English and not German.)
[Sorry DC this is out of sequence but there is so little of intellectual content in your post]
The monks were Irish ,lived in Ireland and spoke Irish.
The Winsors are incestuous,live in England and speak English.Dont see it.
are you really descended from these Titans of Learning? - aside, you know nothing of first year English lit -or Gaellic,At least I can spell Gaelic.Ach na lig aon rud cur isteach orinn nach bhuilimid ag baint an taitneamh as an caint agus corath seo.
The Narrangansetts were not obliterated by the Pilgrims Ok then second generation pilgrims in Plymoth.And for all purposes except for a website or two the Narrangansetts were obliterated.But by all means fall back on the dictionary definition if you must.I'll argue history with you not dictionary definitions.
In the US the term Scotch/Irish can mean what it does in Ireland but also far more generalized to include Irish and/or Scot,Ya mean like "CELT" you were so picky about. Lets just settle for American.So Americans in the Carolinas run amok.So what?
Nuremburg a trial by the conquering powers.)
You have to have law to have a trial.
International Law has no standing beyond public relations.If there was no international law there would be chaos.There are laws covering the use of airspace,high seas,territorial waters,human rights.Wars of aggression have been outlawed.Check first gulf war.
Are you saying that lack of those items prevented Ireland from being a meaningful nation
Well it kinda gives you an edge in the "the superior civilization stakes".So endowed with these advantages they took themselves off to ravage and pillage less fortunate nations and this made them superior?
Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain. Huh. Sorry, losers
.There is no such thing as the United Kingdom of Great Britian.However there IS a political entity entitled the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland.THIS FROM GOOGLE
The United Kingdom is made up of
four main countries:
England
Wales
Scotland
Northern Ireland
The Union Flag is the national flag of the United Kingdom. (The official name is the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland')
Proof. No constitutional tradition. Give me the dates of your made up 'tradition', Wild. When it started. Whatever there is, it's from England.)
Are you saying that there was no parliment in Dublin?Are you saying that the Irish were not envolved in constitutional politics?Tell me what lenght of time constitutes tradition?
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - May 25 2005 : 2:49:36 PM
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1. Please, Wild. Not even Cahill calls it a Golden Age, does he? And monastaries were a Catholic and eastern invention, having nothing to do with the Celts. Ireland kept civilization alive? Please. A small percentage of monks. And again, which 500 years are you claiming, Wild? From when to when? Further, all of Europe was not in chaos any worse than Ireland, and those monastaries still reported to the Pope, right?
2. I'm still waiting for proof that Ireland provided the "backbone of education in Africa", a previous claim, Wild. Monks did travel Europe - that's how Ireland's monastaries were started, or are you claiming Christianity and the Church started there? - and they did share their knowledge. So did the British, Norse, and mostly Italians and Spanish.
3. My store of snide remarks is limitless in the face of such baseless vanities, Wild. For the fifth or sixth time, you don't dare declare the time periods you're talking about by year, because you'll lose everytime. You can only hope to rattle back and forth and instill confusion.
4. No, I don't confuse Empire with nation. You earlier tried to win an argument by saying England had no Empire in the 1600's, but of course it did, just not named as such or declared. Now you're claiming it so. And sorry, Wild, no empire has ever had rape and pillage as its reason to exist. It's financially impossible. It's a stupid statement by any standard.
5. Yes, I consider war least of all in most casees. But you've claimed a "Celtic Civilization" when science can't define it, and what is known of it is mostly like everyone else's: war and preparing for it. Writing developed in lots of places. There's writing pre-Celt in Ireland. Tell us again about the genocide inflicted by the Celts on the original peoples? Or at least the people before the Celts?
6. The monks were probably mostly Irish, lived in Ireland and spoke mostly Latin except for the few who dealt with the outside world. An example of "The Winsors are incestuous" or don't Irish marry their cousins? Anymore, I mean? You feel free to call people genocidal monsters and all sorts of names and think its excused because you're a cute Irishman saying "I have the greatest respect for" whoever you've just accused. Not much fun when your past is held up and revealed as at least as sordid as anyone else's, is it Wild?
7. And we can all use translation services and memorize lines.
8. The Pilgrims were not Puritans, Wild. It's a distinction that got people killed. They were both non-conformists, but the Puritans stayed Anglican. You said the Narragansetts were wiped out (which means "all killed") but that was untrue. It's not a dictionary battle, it's that you exaggerate to the point of lying.
9. In my initial introduction of this topic, I used the term Scoth/Irish and explained what I meant by it. You tried to make it as if I'd restricted the definition to Ulster Scotch Irish. I corrected you. Then you tried to libel your traditional conquerors. I said they were American, and I drew no conclusion from the instance of that one South Carolina county. I'm not picky about Celt. It's a meaningless term you find handy to imply Ireland was united and happy under Celtic harmony when it was a battlefield from the get go. I did misspell Gaelic.
10. "You have to have law to have a trial." Whose law? The winners' law. The Nazis weren't tried by any laws then in existence to which Germany had agreed. Nuremburg was tried under ad hoc law by the winning parties, and I believe justly and fairly. The Japanese were not. In both cases, there were Allied commanders guilty of much the same thing as those sentenced. The examples you give are laws by treaty only. Only countries who sign are bound, subject to definition of words. Who outlawed wars of aggression and who agreed to it? Who enforces it?
11. It might give an edge, but if Ireland had united peacefully (or at all), all these invasions wouldn't have happened and Ireland would have a history to rightly brag about, instead of this romantic blather to cover up what a weak assed nation of rival backstabbers you were. Ireland has rich land and much to trade and never developed it. Even during your alleged "golden age."
12. "There is no such thing as the United Kingdom of Great Britian.However there IS a political entity entitled the United Kingdom of Great Britian,<it's not a typo as my Gaellic was; you never spell it correctly> and Northern Ireland.THIS FROM GOOGLE" Thus proving what? Other than the fact you were wrong in your claims of what the REAL political definition was......
13. "Are you saying that there was no parliment....." Stop whining and give me the date of the inception of this supposed Irish constitutional "tradition," Wild. They we'll apply it to your remarks when we started this. You lose. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 26 2005 : 3:02:45 PM
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In reality, they were practicing their handwriting for Bible work copying books in languages most could not read.)
The monks were probably mostly Irish, lived in Ireland and spoke mostly Latin except for the few who dealt with the outside world. Just look at what you are suggesting. That these latin scolars were illiterate?What manner of convoluted Orwellian crap is that?.In what languages were they Illiterate ,Hun,Vandal,Visigot.Yes of course not being able to read they never realised that they were copying those great literary tomes of Vandal epics describing the sack of Rome.Making use of my "Cahill" I see they also had a command of Greek and Hebrew but Latin is the one of real importance being the language of civilization and of the educated and literary classes.
And monastaries were a Catholic and eastern invention, having nothing to do with the Celts.
and those monastaries still reported to the Pope, right?Ireland kept civilization alive? Please. A small percentage of monks.
Just to paraphrase the above. A handful of monks under direction from Rome established eastern style monasteries where latin speaking illiterates toiled to no purpose.
Is that honest research or as I suspect just trolling .If so there was an exchance on the "bullet" thread a short time ago perhaps you could deploy some of your large stock of snide remarks and rekindle it.
The church which developed in Ireland from 432 was intrinsically linked to Celtic Ireland.It was distinctly Irish with little contact with or control by Rome.The structure was based on the Irish "clann"structure and not the Roman diocises structure.They even calculated Easter differently and kept and embodied many of the old pagan practices.
These high barbarians enthuastically embraced the new Christian philosophy.On an insignificant island among perhaps the last of a great barbarian race civilization found a refuge from the dark ages.
2. I'm still waiting for proof that Ireland provided the "backbone of education in Africa",
When your replys to the ongoing issues reach a sufficently high intellectual standard then I'll gladly discuss it with you.
For the fifth or sixth time, you don't dare declare the time periods you're talking about by year, because you'll lose everytime. You can only hope to rattle back and forth and instill confusion.
The period under discussion is 432 to 800 plus
4. No, I don't confuse Empire with nation.
Well confine your replies to the issue which was "empire" not "nation"
You earlier tried to win an argument by saying England had no Empire in the 1600's, but of course it did, just not named as such or declared.
This from a man who demands dictonary definitions.
And sorry, Wild, no empire has ever had rape and pillage as its reason to exist.
So what is the function of an empire if not to enrich the "mother country".And how about a list of countries where the boot was not employed.
5. Yes, I consider war least of all in most casees. But you've claimed a "Celtic Civilization" when science can't define it,Since when was science employed to determine art,language,religion,cultural expression.Confused again I fear?
and what is known of it is mostly like everyone else's: war and preparing for it.
As I said you can only concieve of war as the determining factor in human affairs.
Tell us again about the genocide inflicted by the Celts on the original peoples? Or at least the people before the Celts?Well first off it was barbarian against barbarian unlike your "civilized"pilgrims.But I sure you would not make that observation without proof that genocide did in fact occur.
And we can all use translation services and memorize lines.No DC I Speak Irish.
You said the Narragansetts were wiped out (which means "all killed") but that was untrue. It's not a dictionary battle, it's that you exaggerate to the point of lying.
If when the Narragansetts were attacked they numbered 4000 and at the end of the conflict the remaining 100 were shipped off as slaves to Xiangtan then it is accurate to say they were wiped out.Here again you get confused between the individual and the group.
9. In my initial introduction of this topic, I used the term Scoth/Irish and explained what I meant by it. You tried to make it as if I'd restricted the definition to Ulster Scotch Irish. I corrected you.
I beg your pardon you altered your description when confronted with your error
Then you tried to libel your traditional conquerors. I said they were American, and I drew no conclusion from the instance of that one South Carolina county.
So like much of what you post it was pointless
I'm not picky about Celt. It's a meaningless term you find handy to imply Ireland was united and happy under Celtic harmony when it was a battlefield from the get go.
War again ???Off with you to the bullet thread
11. It might give an edge, but if Ireland had united peacefully (or at all), all these invasions wouldn't have happened and Ireland would have a history to rightly brag about,
These posts are getting too long for you.Who was united in 800ad?
The rest will have to wait her who must be obeyed is calling
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - May 27 2005 : 12:21:02 PM
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For those wondering "what the hell?" this is an ongoing argument I've had with Wild about his tendency to inflate and exaggerate, tendencies that are given full rein in Irish history and produced a canon of myth and garbage of no particular inspirational value nor handy for current days, being often untrue and having its share of melodramatic 'recognition scenes' from European history with their heroes pasted in. Everyone does it.
I claim this as close to what Native Americans have done and been allowed to do, partly out of guilt and convenience. Both claim to be put upon yet never conquered, but betrayed. But both Ireland and Native America were nothing if not conquered utterly in every way.
As can be seen from your posts DC you seem to have an irrational and illogical hatered of all things Celtic.To make any comparison between a race who were reduced to no more than anthropological oddites to a free soverign Celtic nation elevates your Orwellian psychosis to heroic depths.
Gaelic Ireland went into slow decline in the 17th century beginning with the exile of the Gaelic aristocracy,followed by Cromwell and then the Williamite wars in 1690s.English authority was in the ascendancy.All administration ,trade,education,armed forces were English.To survive Irish culture had to be abandoned.The Gaelic language was seen as a badge of poverty and ignorance.It could even be said to have been hated."Mere Irish" and "white apes"---not something to be proud of.
Scotish culture suffered just as much after 45,the destruction of the clan system,highland clearances,language abandoned,pipes banned even the kilt being replaced by trews.
In Ireland we had a Gaelic revival and from what I'v seen in Scotland, Scotish culture is alive and going strong.Your hatered belongs back in the 18th century.The Irish and Scots have gotten over it while you remain rooted in selfconscious embarrisment.[a closet Scot?]
This gives rise to your asinine comparison of an illitrate stoneage tribal people with an nation who just in the field of literature alone have 4 Nobel Laureates . Only when you discover anything remotely like the Book of Kells or Joyce's Ulysses among the Amerindians will your comparison be worth discussing. [With apologies to MRW]
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Ireland, Native Americans, and LBH
