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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - March 04 2005 : 6:40:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by movingrobewoman
It's funny how many Custer paintings I've seen that are nothing more than ripoffs of Michelangelo's Vatican City Pieta (though the dude did many other, much less famous ones--and died making another for the Rondinini [sic] family) ...
Grunewald's starting to become the new template, though I think the originality level's about the same.
R. Larsen |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 04 2005 : 6:40:10 PM
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Warlord--
Yep, degree in history, graduate in art history. But man, you totally lost me on all that weaponry talk ... speak slowly and carry a big stick ... okay, when did GAC convert (if he did) to the Remington?
Regards,
that annoying liberal feminist (but generally nice person), |
movingrobe |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 04 2005 : 8:28:04 PM
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And it probably is accurate, it just seems too....too, somehow. Overmuch. The wound in the side that had flowing blood. The clean shot in the head symbolic of the crown of thorns. The uncorrupted body after three days.....not distended or bloated. Also, Roland died by having both his temples blown out (from blowing an elephant horn, yes, but still....), which was also a much better known tale back then.
Grunewalde, I think, actually did a Pieta at some point. Anyway, I can only remain suspicious. My lot. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 04 2005 : 11:54:27 PM
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quote:
And it probably is accurate, it just seems too....too, somehow. Overmuch. The wound in the side that had flowing blood. The clean shot in the head symbolic of the crown of thorns. The uncorrupted body after three days.....not distended or bloated. Also, Roland died by having both his temples blown out (from blowing an elephant horn, yes, but still....), which was also a much better known tale back then.
errr, DC, this is not a Eng. Lit. 101 course where the assignment is finding meanings in the fall of a leaf.
While what you wrote is nice, I will go by the facts, as known, that Larsen posted.
Best of wishes,
Billy (whose nerves are still somewhat together despite 3 hours of pages from work and 14 10-11 year olds). |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 07:55:13 AM
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| Concerning the running Custer wounded and Diana, it was different wounds. If they have took out Diana and putted her across an horse she would'nt have resisted 2 hours. She would have died after some few seconds. Diana had an acident car and her wounds was quite different from Custer ones. She had doctors that made artificial breathing, he had not. She had an ambulance and he had not. To make her resist they made a open-heart massage. Custer not. I think this running up that hill with the wounded Custer is just unbelievable as Errol Flynn Hero. I agree with Warlord. I still think that something we all miss had happened. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 09:56:17 AM
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| Those are facts, Markland. The way people were brought up and viewed their world and informed the way they described things. I can prove none of it, but if you read descriptions of battle deaths in both England and America from the War of 1812 through WWI, there are templates for description that commonly appear, highly suspicious in their application. All I'm saying. And conforming to those templates leads readers in the modern era to utterly misread the intent and assume metaphor was fact. It could have, but there is no evidence it did, tweak descriptions of the Custer fight. It just would be highly odd if it didn't happen, though. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 10:34:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
quote:
Originally posted by movingrobewoman
It's funny how many Custer paintings I've seen that are nothing more than ripoffs of Michelangelo's Vatican City Pieta (though the dude did many other, much less famous ones--and died making another for the Rondinini [sic] family) ...
Grunewald's starting to become the new template, though I think the originality level's about the same.
R. Larsen
Mattias Grunewald who did the Isenheim Altarpiece (ca. 1425)--or somebody a little more ... recent?
(Okay, Markland, back to facts)
Regards, |
movingrobe |
Edited by - movingrobewoman on March 05 2005 10:37:06 AM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 6:13:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by movingrobewoman
Mattias Grunewald who did the Isenheim Altarpiece (ca. 1425)--or somebody a little more ... recent?
Him (Isenheim).
R. Larsen |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 8:15:43 PM
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quote:
Those are facts, Markland. The way people were brought up and viewed their world and informed the way they described things.
No DC, facts are verifiable items of information which HAPPENED, not interpretations based upon the era which the persons describing the action happened.
For instance, this is a fact: Custer was killed at the LBH.
Interpretive: Custer was wounded through the chest at MTC and somehow rode or was carried to LSH.
Descriptions, and world viewpoint, do not exclude facts. They color the descriptions, but, with all the BS removed, the fact remains.
Sorry for being short but I am afraid that you are actually turning into a Custer romanticist and I am hoping to keep you from that fate. The only worse fate I could think of would be to be a Broncos fan as well as a Custer romanticist.
With the best of wishes,
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 8:43:46 PM
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quote:
(Okay, Markland, back to facts)
Yes MRW, back to facts unless prefaced as hypotheses, which many writers forget to do.
Now let's go to your inferiority complex regarding fiction writers and historical based events. One of the best historians of the mid 1700's through early 1800's westward push of the pioneers as well as the best novelist around is Allan Eckert. I will be glad to compare his work against ANY of the pure historians of that period and bet that AWE comes out on top for research.
Or, in other words, you have to know the history before you can write someone in it. Eckert only put words in the character's mouths that, based upon his research fit the character. The remainder of his work is soundly researched, amply sourced (I wish some "historians" could source that well) and logical, within human abilities to do the illogical.
Best of wishes and looking forward to reading your book!!
Billy
P.S. In the casualty lists I posted today, I saw two Lehmans in Co. I. Does anyone have any idea if those two were brothers?
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 11:24:41 PM
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My baseline is broader, Markland. It is a fact that in American and British history, literature and stories of their time channel memory in the recollections of soldiers (or any traumatized person), and probably elsewhere as well, but we work with what we have. What they actually recall may not be fact, but that's another issue. For this reason, for example, an officer of learning who sees an incident is quite likely to recall it differently than a barely literate soldier who hasn't read as much with neither one lying or trying to. A devout Catholic confronted with a papal medal on the body of a dead officer may not honestly recall the incident or the condition of the body as would someone not tinged with religious belief. Someone who has read Song of Roland might be quite sure that instead of one, there was a hole right through at both of Custer's temples.
If the last two saw a man shot in the back and fall running towards them, the devout might be quite sure the victim threw up his hands as a final asking of God's forgiveness while the other saw it as mere physical reaction, and neither stupid nor lying, but trained by their background to see what they saw. These are clumsy examples, but I think you understand what I mean.
That's not romantic or anything like it. I'm not terribly interested beyond Weir Point, anyway, since I think Custer was cooked whatever he did beyond. Having noted a definite market, however, I'm putting aside my current efforts and devoting myself to a book entitled
"Forsooth, Death? Lord of Lo, Shake Thy Christman-Hoedvine .44 Rimfire Buckle Gun!!!
The Life and Times of Bone Fragment 345.m, Custer's Bravest and Least Known Soldier!"
The True Story of Custer's Courageous Attack! And the Curs Who Betrayed Him! The Mystery Solved!
It sort of writes itself. So I don't need any primary source.
Anyway, there's a famous book by a decorated and wounded WWII combat officer, Paul Fussell, on just this, limited to the British in WWI. The Great War and Modern Memory. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on March 05 2005 11:32:12 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 8:35:21 PM
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| What's wrong with being a Broncos fan? |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 10:48:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
What's wrong with being a Broncos fan?
Trying not to eat up too much bandwidth:
conceited
haven't won anything since Elway
over-rated
haven't won anything since Elway
Shanahan is not the "Genius"
haven't won anything since Elway
Shall I go on 
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 07:53:21 AM
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Death is not only a great preservative but an enhancer while life diminishes.If Reno and Benteen had perished with all their men defending Reno hill their stand would be ranked along side that of the Alamo.It would have put Custer's fiasco in the shade.Making a stand is all very good but it just does not compare with a last stand.It was their misfortune to have made a successful stand and to have survived so that we see them not during that heroic 2 days but in later life as a drunk and as a bitter old curmudgeon.Custer's elevation in death relagated them to ordinaryness.
What Reno and Benteen needed was the same PR firm that handled the defence of Rourke's drift for the Brits.Here we have a unit of fortified infantry armed with rifles and bayonets poring volleys into "unarmed"locals for 11 hours.Result ,heros all and VCS for commanding officers.Compare this to Benteen's and Reno's two day defence on an open plain against an enemy who outgunned and outnumbered them at least 4 to 1.Result ,no medal of honor.Suggestions of cowardice and betrayal ,court marshal and inquiries.There is no justice.
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 08:23:21 AM
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Wild
The 24th deserved the accolades they received for their defence of Rourke's Drift. The battle was far from a certain victory for the British, in fact as late as the following morning, victory lay within the grasp of the Zulu's. It was only the arrival of the surving elements of Chelmsford's column which saved the defenders.
The Zulu's were far from unarmed. Quoting percentages would be farcical, as no ones knows how many Zulu's carried firearms. But from contemporary accounts it seems that numerous Zulu's did carry guns of some description - the results from 20 plus years of gun trade.
Having said all that, I do agree that the defenders of Reno Hill have been unjustly treated. I find it annoying that I can do a google search for Custer's last stand and turn up a dozen or more paintings of the event, numerous photographs of the hill itself. But search for a painting of the defence of Reno Hill, and well ... hope you have better luck than I did.
Its a shame. Especially considering the brave actions of men such as Benteen who if Graham is to be believed, was superlative in directing the defence. And of course, the bravery of those who ran the gauntlet of the Indian attackers to fetch water from the river. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 08:59:44 AM
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True, Wild, except that there were more Medals of Honor given per capita of soldiers involved than any other action in our history for Reno Hill. Twenty-seven, off the top of my head. Even subtracting out the frauds like Goldin, impressive enough. Officially rewarded, but not in mythology, which is where it counts. Not as impressive then as now, though.
If you back a year or so through the forums, you will find you are now offically in my column, as this was an early bitch of mine. Hoo-rah! Sorry, but it's true. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 09:35:35 AM
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True, Wild, except that there were more Medals of Honor given per capita of soldiers involved than any other action in our history for Reno Hill.
In not awarding medals to the commanding officers the Army was in fact disassociating itself from the actions of Benteen and Reno.You will also recall the dismissal of the promotions application by the men for Reno and Benteen.
It should also be remembered that Rourke's Drift commanders Chard and Bromhead displayed exactly the same trauma as Reno.Indeed the command and control system of that Brit invasion force fell asunder because of the traumatic effect Isandalwana had on the officers who saw the battlefield. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 10:21:12 AM
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The Army didn't and doesn't award the medals. The promotions' application featured signatures of men who hadn't signed it and simply could not be taken seriously. In any case, regimental command was not and should not have been awarded on that basis.
I think most combat vets - having both brain and heart - go through what Reno and others have, and if judged solely on those brief moments would be cashiered. That's what I mean when I say that Reno's entire career - better than most - should be considered rather than just the LBH. It's what infuriates me when wannabe's call him a coward absent any event in their own existence - actually or supposedly in the military, actually or supposedly in combat - worthy of comparison. It may have been that reflection that altered French's opinion, and it may have been that which kept Benteen and other officers from denouncing Reno.
I still find it ironic the vitriol spilled on Reno for breaking from his 'orders' on his scout, doing essentially what Custer did days later, and reported to Terry new and accurate info which changed Terry's plans. In retrospect, Reno did exactly right. He was excoriated for it, and sent into battle with that over his head. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 11:25:17 AM
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The Army didn't and doesn't award the medals.
Sorry DC I don't understand this.
In any case, regimental command was not and should not have been awarded on that basis.
It was common practice in the civil war and it is not uncommon for exemplary service in action to be recognised by promotions.The application was turned down because the promotions had already been made. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 5:11:10 PM
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True, Wild, except that there were more Medals of Honor given per capita of soldiers involved than any other action in our history for Reno Hill.
You say DC that 27 of the country's highest awards were made for individual acts of galantry.Yet the leadership involved in this battle went unrewarded.At Rourke's Drift the officers were awarded the VC not for any individual act but for the leadership required.The leadership of Benteen and Reno was not in anyway inferior to that of Bromhead and Chard.In fact when you take into consideration that the situation was not of their making and that it was the leadership of Custer that loaded the dice against them it makes the lack of recognition by the Army/government all the more difficult to understand. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 6:26:55 PM
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| They kept their jobs. And the MOH wasn't the big deal it is today, because it was the only medal we had to give, I think, and usually just to soldiers and not to officers, with exceptions. A bunch of people in a Maine or Massachusetts regiment got the MOH for extending their enlistment for a few days, to give you the flavor of the moment. It was Wilson who reneged a bunch of medals from the past when they set up a new hierarchy of medals. Just withdrew them. I don't know if the LBH medals were among these. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 7:02:24 PM
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For many years, Medals of Honor were handed out like candy. Almost half of all (1,195 of 2,397) were awarded in the Civil War.
428 -- Indian Campaigns (18 at Wounded Knee)
323 -- WWII
96 -- WWI
156 -- Vietnam Era
78 -- Korea |
Bob Bostwick |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 8:18:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
quote:
I still find it ironic the vitriol spilled on Reno for breaking from his 'orders' on his scout, doing essentially what Custer did days later, and reported to Terry new and accurate info which changed Terry's plans. In retrospect, Reno did exactly right. He was excoriated for it, and sent into battle with that over his head.
There are many enigma's regarding this battle that have continued to elude rational conclusions for decades and, will continue to do so for decades to come. As we are incapable of knowing exactly what motivated the involved principles, we can only speculate, surmise, and contemplate the "Whys" of what occurred based on the fatal outcome, and oral/written reports of those who were involved.
Reno's chastisement for his "scout" has always mystified me. Why was General Terry so nettled with Reno for obtaining vital information regarding the possible whereabouts of the "Hostiles?" After all, Reno's "scout" proved that Terry was incorrect on his assumption that the Indians were possibly on the Powder River, upper reaches of the Tongue, or in the valley of the Rosebud. Why was he not gratified at the discovery of this new and critical intelligence?
Terry later wrote to his sisters that Reno, "had done this in positive defiance of my orders not to go to the Rosebud, in the belief that there were Indians on that stream and that he could make a successful attack on them which would cover up his disobedience. Of course this performance made a change in my plans necessary."
I have been unable to ascertain any information that would confirm Terry's supposition that Reno actually planned to attack anyone.
In actuality, Reno came horribly close to a fatal encounter with the Sioux and their allies himself. When he asked the lead scout,Forked Horn, what he thought of the trail they were following Mr. Horn's retort was not at all comforting.
As a result Reno, understandably, decided to report back to camp. It appears That Custer too was nonplussed over Reno's termination of his scout. The New York Herald quoted him as saying: Few officers have ever had so fine an opportunity to make a successful and telling strike, and few have ever so completely failed to improve their opportunity."
What does one make of Terry's and Custer's harsh disposition towards Reno? Perhaps a telegram sent by Terry to General Sheridan in Chicago may shed some light on the subject, "I only hope that one of the two columns will find the Indians."
General Terry makes no mention of any plan to have the columns meet at any place or at anytime. Only after the battle ended, in utter defeat, do we begin to hear of "plans" for the columns to "unite" on the 26th.
In summation, the predominant consensus of every grunt, N.C.O., and officer of the 7th. Cavalry, and its counterparts, were that the Indians would flee upon the first sighting from the indomitable U.S. Military. This false ideology set the troopers up for one colossal defeat. Anticipating the enemy to run like rabbits upon their approach, the Indians refusal to do so and, their resolve to "stand" and fight may have shocked the troops.
My theory is that the reason Terry and Custer were so infuriated with Reno is because they believed that his close encounter may have "spooked" the prey. Their unsubstantiated fear that the Indians may now be on the run (due to Reno's interference) into many directions did not occur.
Ironically, the Indian village,that Custer would later encounter,never realized how closely Reno's approach had been. An irony of ironies is that Reno's "scout" had no effect in the final outcome of this battle at all. Finally, Reno's actions at the battle of the Little Big horn do not command accolades of joy, nor should they condemn him to the eternal nomenclature of a coward. I believe him to have been a man, subject to the trials and tribulation of mortality as we all are.
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Edited by - joseph wiggs on March 07 2005 9:04:36 PM |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 10:00:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
You're right, Larsen, there is no evidence to contradict initial contentions. But there are odd things. Ryan says the 7th was divvied up into five units to bury the bodies. Custer and family fell to his lot, and they would have been first interred, I'd think. When did all these people SEE Custer who claim to have, because it sounds like they were worked hard all day, all over the field. Officers, yes, the guys that buried him, yes. And Bradley and crew, yes, although they say almost none of them were mutilated except for a finishing blow to the brain. I'd bet most committing stuff to their diary never saw him. Did Burkman, who'd have call to pay his respects, get to see him? I thought he did not. The people we know saw him differ, which is common. It's the wide agreement that is suspicious.
There is a lock step recitation quality to some of the descriptions. Fatal wound, left side, post mortem to the temple. He was not only not mutilated, he was not black and swollen as the others. It has the whiff - I can prove nothing - of agreed upon story....and Ryan gets it wrong. Then, there is the peaceful description of Custer. As described, as I've mentioned before and as Wild recognizes, it is a Pieta scene front and center to all educated people of the time, if not ours, when that was common education. You can recall lots of paintings of Christ lying not unlike Custer is described, down to the slight smile. The two men recall the thieves, etc. It's not syllogism, but it is a recollection scene of our culture, and when it appears in a historical account, red lights flash. It's not a wholly stupid assumption of falsity in testimony. It is just suspicious.
It's also of overpowering unimportance.
Nevermind that Godfrey mentions several soldiers, upon seeing what appeared to be white boulders, said "What are those?", to which Godfrey used the fieldglasses to determine what the white objects were. His response was "The dead!"
Nevermind that Weir, being one of the first to see the Custer field, said, with Godfrey as a witness, "Oh, how white they look! How white!"...
Nevermind that Godfrey remarked of "the marble white bodies, the somber brown of the dead horses..." in describing the field.
Nevermind that blood pools after a period of time, blackening the body. Let's just forget that gravity means the pooling will take place in the lower parts of the body.
I've talked to my sister about this before. She's seen decomposing bodies in the summertime, and she has a pretty good grasp of decomposition. I ran the situation past her, bodies lying in the sun, tall grass, no shade, 80-100 degrees, from about 3pm Sunday until about 12pm on Tuesday. She did not think they'd be completely blackened, but asked her co-workers the same question for me. The consensus was the bodies would be blackened where the blood pooled. If the body was face down, the front would be blackened. Custer, lying face up, would be blackened on the back of his body.
But we can just go with Dark Cloud, who just thinks the bodies were black. Or we can go with Weir and Godfrey, who were there, and claimed they appeared white at various distances. So its Dark Cloud, who has no factual or medical basis, or the eyewitnesses, backed up by medical opinion on decomposition.
The bodies appeared to be white from a distance, according to those who saw them. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Meotzi Mania and Nagging Personal Issues
