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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - January 30 2006 : 10:03:35 PM
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"No need to worry about close DC it was not used in Custer's orders. Contact means the positioning of the forces such as one reacts to the other's presence.The term nearly is meaningless,rather like saying someone is nearly alive or nearly a virgin."
Close was my word but I wasn't quoting anyone. "when nearly in contact with the enemy" is the the quote from Terry's order, The reason I brought it up is that Hughes stated "Custer was not nearly in contact with the enemy...when at a point 40 miles away from the village he turned...so making it impossible of accomplishment the hope of Terry." When looking at my map I see it to be only twenty miles from the fork of the Rosebud and Davis Creek to the LBH river and about one days march thirty three miles in total. I would call it close enough to "nearly" if within 1 day Custer had engaged the indians. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Edited by - AZ Ranger on January 30 2006 10:07:36 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 30 2006 : 10:51:50 PM
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"If the Indians were moving along Davis Creek they were moving into the trap set for them in Terry's plan and they were moving at a leasurely pace spending at least 3 days at each camp site so Custer was under no time pressure in any of the scenarios suggested here."
Wild -- not if they were moving downstream along Davis Creek and then crossed toward the Rosebud. Custer could have continued south "perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the Little Horn," The Indians could move behind him.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 05:27:19 AM
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not if they were moving downstream along Davis Creek and then crossed toward the Rosebud.
But their trail was along the Rosebud.Are you suggesting they did a U turn and returned to the Rosebud? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 09:00:00 AM
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not if they were moving downstream along Davis Creek and then crossed toward the Rosebud.
But their trail was along the Rosebud.Are you suggesting they did a U turn and returned to the Rosebud?
What I am suggesting is that Custer would prevent them from doing that by traveling upstream. Terry's order were "so as to preclude the possibility of the escape of the Indians" although he stated to the south and southeast any escape would not bode well for Custer.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 09:17:47 AM
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Wild--When Custer turned off the Rosebud at either Davis creek or Thompson Creek was he following the trail of Reno's previous scout, a new trail made by Indians not making the original trail that Reno followed or both trails overlapped?
As far as the Tullock Creek scout didn't Custer talk with Herendeen on the 24th as to when it would advisable to conduct the scout and in the end, the 25th, decided it would not be safe and the scout would not make it through. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 09:50:36 AM
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quote:
"As far as the Tullock Creek scout didn't Custer talk with Herendeen on the 24th as to when it would advisable to conduct the scout and in the end, the 25th, decided it would not be safe and the scout would not make it through."
Upon what evidence was this decision made? The Regiment at that time was undiscovered. There was no complete scout by Custer into the Tullochs forks region. If one takes a look at a relief map of that region. The terrain would have prevented a complete scout of that region unless several patrols were sent into that area. According to what we know, Herendeen more or less controlled the timing. And he essentially told Custer it wasn't time. The reason? Again when one looks at a relief map. They had not progressed far enough to ensure that the indians wouldn't double back on them before the Regiment reached the LBH from the south. Custer's premature shortcut. Didn't mean that he shouldn't have sent Herendeen through with information about what was observed. The reason for Herendeen's mission was to provide Terry with information that had been gathered along the way. And also as a last minute scout of that region. Thus insuring that the indians wouldn't or had not slipped back between them.
While the plan wasn't perfect. It was a plan that depended upon timing. Once again we see the reason for Herendeen's mission. Timing. He was to be sent back not only to provide information about what Custer's Regiment found. He was the cog in Terry's wheel that helped to coordinate the "enclosure" of the indians along the LBH. |
Edited by - Benteen on January 31 2006 09:52:09 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 10:12:47 AM
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Wild--When Custer turned off the Rosebud at either Davis creek or Thompson Creek was he following the trail of Reno's previous scout,
To answer your question AZ,Reno's scout took him South along the Powder R he then scouted and crossed Mitzpath,Pumpkin and Tongue hitting the Rosebud about 25 miles South of the Yellowstone and 25 miles North of Lame Deer Creek.Here he discovered the Indian trail heading South.He followed it for 7 or so miles but as his scouts advised him that the Indians were only one's days march ahead and fearing discovery he headed back towards the Yellowstone.
As far as the Tullock Creek scout didn't Custer talk with Herendeen on the 24th as to when it would advisable to conduct the scout and in the end, the 25th, decided it would not be safe and the scout would not make it through.
Custer knew the Indians were not on Tullock Creek.He also knew from his orders that Gibbon was sending a detachment South along it and was depending on Custer to provide intel on the South end of it.Did Custer think that a scout of Tullock would slow Gibbon down ?Thus he does not bother to sent a scout through to him. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 11:43:41 AM
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quote:
Wild1 ~ "Custer knew the Indians were not on Tullock Creek.He also knew from his orders that Gibbon was sending a detachment South along it and was depending on Custer to provide intel on the South end of it.Did Custer think that a scout of Tullock would slow Gibbon down ?Thus he does not bother to sent a scout through to him."
"Custer knew"? I don't think one can presume this. Tullochs creek, forks into three branches. In order for a thorough investigation and knowledge of these branches he would have had to have sent scouting missions there! He didn't! Thus and therefore ~ he didn't know. Anyone who has a topographical map can tell you that you couldn't possibly see everthing in those Tulloch's branches from along the Rosebud. And he (Custer) didn't. And I don't think given Custer's arrogance and his style that he would have been concerned about "slowing down Gibbon" as much as the fear that Terry would speed up Gibbon's march. Or even worse yet send those company's of the 2nd Cavalry on ahead to aid. Thus spoiling the 7th's glory mission. |
Edited by - Benteen on January 31 2006 11:44:36 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 1:38:04 PM
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Benteen
"Custer knew"? I don't think one can presume this.
I'm basing it on the fact that the Indian trail was headed South away from Tullock Creek.
And I don't think given Custer's arrogance and his style that he would have been concerned about "slowing down Gibbon" as much as the fear that Terry would speed up Gibbon's march.
Very possible,but the disregard and indifference he shows to this the very least difficult part of his order highlights the non-cooperation mode he was in.
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 5:33:35 PM
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Benteen--"Upon what evidence was this decision made? The Regiment at that time was undiscovered." Look at my quote again. How do you maintain the Regiment is not discovered on the 25th?
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"As far as the Tullock Creek scout didn't Custer talk with Herendeen on the 24th as to when it would advisable to conduct the scout and in the end, the 25th, decided it would not be safe and the scout would not make it through."
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on January 31 2006 6:49:16 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 6:47:48 PM
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Wild--"Custer knew the Indians were not on Tullock Creek.He also knew from his orders that Gibbon was sending a detachment South along it and was depending on Custer to provide intel on the South end of it.Did Custer think that a scout of Tullock would slow Gibbon down ?Thus he does not bother to sent a scout through to him."
I believe he knew where they were also since they were on a hot trail. It seems a mute point since the Indians were at the end of the hot trail and not Tullock Creek. Also some of the scouts were alleged to have been at least be looking into the headwater country of Tollock on the 24th.
At issue to me in Terry's orders is that he states "The column of Colonel Gibbon....and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and and little Horns." In Custer's part of the order he was to go as far "southward , perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the Little Horn..." From my map it looks like another 20 miles up the Rosebud from the 24th camp site. Then my map ends with approximately 30 miles distance from the end of the Rosebud to the Tongue and the Tongue runs off the map to the south. Then if Custer turned back it would be about 35 miles west to the Little Horn plus and additional 20 plus miles down the Little Horn to the Village. I might be off some and the scale of the map off but I have two maps that appeat similar and I total that to be 105 miles. Dropping 15 of those miles plus waiting for a thorough search of Tullock Creek headwaters it would still have added 3 additional days and Gibbons and Custer were to meet somewhere on the Little Horn to find the Indians. I don't see how they could be expected to be somewhere on the same day. I think Gibbon was to block any escape down the LBH and Custer was to engage and/or drive them toward Gibbon if they fled. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 8:36:45 PM
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quote:
AZR ~ "I think Gibbon was to block any escape down the LBH and Custer was to engage and/or drive them toward Gibbon if they fled."
A common misperception. The orders doesn't say that. Alot of people have tried to read it that way. But no matter how they try, it just isn't there. I realise that most people think that coordinated orders in that day and age wasn't the standard or the norm. Alot of battles were planned and timed, even during the Civil War. I can find no reason to suggest that such a plan would not have worked. And indeed it would have had Custer not deviated.
Custer was about 15 miles from the where the Battle of the Rosebud occured when he deviated. Had he gone on ahead that way he may have came upon the battle scene. If he did then it was only 15 miles back and another 15 to the LBH where the indians were. That's only 45 miles.
I don't fault Custer for trying to do what he thought was best. And after the fact, (after he departed from the orders), the real issues kick in. Thereafter, alot of things happened that caused the battle to go the way it did. Many of those things were not his fault. In the end when he stood on LSH and pondered briefly the end of his command and his and their lives. One does wonder what he thought at that time about his "deviation."
I do fault Custer for disobeying orders because I think it's clear that he did. Do I see this as sinister on Custer's part? Not necessarily. I mean put yourself in his shoes, what would you have done? I think only then can one answer the question successfully, and fully appreciate his predicament. |
Edited by - Benteen on January 31 2006 8:38:38 PM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 10:09:27 PM
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Benteen--"A common misperception. The orders doesn't say that. Alot of people have tried to read it that way. But no matter how they try, it just isn't there. I realise that most people think that coordinated orders in that day and age wasn't the standard or the norm. Alot of battles were planned and timed, even during the Civil War. I can find no reason to suggest that such a plan would not have worked. And indeed it would have had Custer not deviated." Do you mean misconception? I did not say this order was for Gibbon rather for Custer. I said in Terry's order he stated the reference to Gibbon which is there. I have never seen Gibbon's order so wouldn't wish to guess what it said. The order I refer to is Terry's addressed to Custer. What I said is what I believe based upon what Gibbon said. "It is perhaps useless to speculate as to what would have been the result had your plan, as originally agreed upon, been carried out, But I cannot help reflecting that in that case my column, supposing the Indian to have remained where it was when Custer struck it, would have been the first to reach it, that with our infantry and Gatling guns we should have been able to take care of ourselves, even though numbering only two thirds of Custer's force, and that with the six hundred cavalry in the neighborhood, led as only Custer could lead it, the results to the indians would have been different from what it was". This Gibbon wrote to Terry. I believe he is saying that he would not attack the village on foot with his infantry but provide a blocking force(to take care of ourselves) for which Custer could engage and drive toward Gibbon. Whether this occurred simultaneous or not Gibbon had no intention that I can read from his statement of charging the village rather he left that to Custer (led as only Custer could lead it).
"Custer was about 15 miles from the where the Battle of the Rosebud occurred when he deviated. Had he gone on ahead that way he may have came upon the battle scene. If he did then it was only 15 miles back and another 15 to the LBH where the indians were. That's only 45 miles. " If he goes the 18 to 20 miles up the Rosebud he is at the headwater of the Rosebud. To go to the headwater of the Tongue it is another 20 miles east unless you are saying Terry really didn't mean the headwater of the Tongue and the Rosebud was close enough. Also there is no way that even if you stop at the Rosebud as you state that it 15 miles to the LBH where the indians were. Custer would have to turn toward the the Little Horn which would be 15 to 20 miles west in order to follow the orders then follow the LBH to the village another 20 miles. What you are describing is running up the Rosebud and back then crossing at Davis Creek. Terry's order doesn't say that. It says the headwater of the tongue then toward the Little Horn not back the Rosebud. Terry did not want to leave out the stretch of the LBH from where Custer was ordered to turn toward the Little horn after going to the headwater of the Tongue.
"I don't fault Custer for trying to do what he thought was best. And after the fact, (after he departed from the orders), the real issues kick in. Thereafter, alot of things happened that caused the battle to go the way it did. Many of those things were not his fault. In the end when he stood on LSH and pondered briefly the end of his command and his and their lives. One does wonder what he thought at that time about his "deviation."" On the night of the 24th he was obeying orders. They were on the Rosebud. On the 25th they were on a hot trail which lead to the discovery of the village that they were looking for.There was no need to continue scouting or worrying about the left flank and the indians escaping to the south. If Custer really intended to stay hid out for a day then things might have worked better. I am not sure he could stand being that close without attacking.
"I do fault Custer for disobeying orders because I think it's clear that he did. Do I see this as sinister on Custer's part? Not necessarily. I mean put yourself in his shoes, what would you have done? I think only then can one answer the question successfully, and fully appreciate his predicament." If you are in charge of Custer do you let him go on his own? I think Custer's actions were predictable but in order to stay with him and turn him loose at the appropriate time meant you have had to travel the same route. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 31 2006 : 11:33:18 PM
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I think Mr. Humphries' point about the Army having its head wedged with its maps needs to be revisited. The headwaters of the Tongue are in the Bighorns, are they not? So I'm really confused by "To go to the headwater of the Tongue it is another 20 miles east unless you are saying Terry really didn't mean the headwater of the Tongue and the Rosebud was close enough." 20 miles east? Not on my map. Using the highly accurate technique of thumb and forefinger, from the Rosebud battlefield to where the Tongue seems to fizzle out after an unsurprisingly serpentine course, is about 35 miles as the anal crow flies and easily twice that on the ground. And mostly southwest.
But I think it pretty clear Terry had no clue and neither did his map where the Tongue started. For the orders are: "....he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them. He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank."
First, the "perhaps" is damning. Second, the feeling to the left routine seems valid only when Custer is heading south or west. What of the right flank once heading west? What prevents the Sioux from heading east up north as he's south and turning west? Simply terrible orders, but Custer might have said fine, great, anything to get off on his own. But I think the bozo/vague orders are sufficient reason for Custer to decide not to hit the Bighorns and make hay. I'm also amazed that the conditions for which Terry thinks Custer should actually make the turn into the LBH are utterly absent, and again note the utter lack of any suggestion of a finely timed two sided attack. Or anything like.
I'm surprised that Boyeur or anyone who actually knew the country hadn't pointed all this out, that turning point should be where the Wolf Mt.'s fizzle out. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 08:01:33 AM
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"I think Mr. Humphries' point about the Army having its head wedged with its maps needs to be revisited. The headwaters of the Tongue are in the Bighorns, are they not? So I'm really confused by "To go to the headwater of the Tongue it is another 20 miles east unless you are saying Terry really didn't mean the headwater of the Tongue and the Rosebud was close enough." 20 miles east? Not on my map. Using the highly accurate technique of thumb and forefinger, from the Rosebud battlefield to where the Tongue seems to fizzle out after an unsurprisingly serpentine course, is about 35 miles as the anal crow flies and easily twice that on the ground. And mostly southwest." The maps I used are found in Legend into History and Did Custer Disobey Orders at the Little Big Horn?which where the map ends shows the Rosebud 20 miles east; General Terry's Last Statement to Custerpage xv it shows the Rosebud ending and then a little further south where Crook's Column was located and again the Tongue River is about 20 miles east of the Rosebud when it runs off the map. My mistake was to say the headwater of the Tongue it is located off my map. I stand corrected. Apparently DC you have a better map but it doesn't make the headwaters of the Tongue any closer does it? Again my map ends where the Tongue is heading south off the map. What I saw was a tributary running into the Tongue which would be part of the headwaters so I assumed, not always a good thing, that Custer would have had to head east to the Tongue then follow it to its headwaters unless he could have traveled straight to the headwaters, wherever that is, and ignored the Tongue River itself.
My point is that it would add several days and not just a one day jaunt up and down the Rosebud. Since Vern has the TOPO program on his computer he has good map on which to figure mileage. Although you need to be careful using a computer. I used Map Quest to find an address and it put me on the edge of cliff. I could see the area I needed to go to but couldn't get there.
Unless it assumed that there is multiple large groups of Indians gathering at different locations that needed to be rounded up then Custer could determine that the hot trail was going to lead to the Indians that Terry intended this action to be against.
Here is part of Vern's comment in regards to the distances.
If you trace the route indicated in Terry's orders, you see that Custer could never have traversed that route in the time indicated, no matter what. They didn't have good enough maps to allow them to accurately estimate the distances.
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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Edited by - AZ Ranger on February 01 2006 08:15:28 AM |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 08:28:16 AM
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and again note the utter lack of any suggestion of a finely timed two sided attack. Or anything like.
When Terry offered the gatling gun detachment and the second cavalry to Custer he was in fact divesting himself of any offensive potential his column had.If Custer had availed himself of the offer Terry's column would have consisted of about 300 infantry.It is obvious from this that Terry's column would play a very reduced secondary role.Custer was the hotshot professional Terry and Gibbon the amateurs.
The orders as I have pointed out previously are nothing more than a cosmetic exercise,a little insurance for Terry.
But I think it pretty clear Terry had no clue and neither did his map where the Tongue started.
It does not matter if he was unsure of the location of the head waters.What matters is that the headwaters was the last place the Indians could turn off and to ensure the success of the pincer movement Custer should perhapsproceed that far.
AZ
I have never seen Gibbon's order so wouldn't wish to guess what it said.
Gibbon did not recieve a written order as Terry was accompanying his column |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 10:11:26 AM
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quote:
Benteen--"A common misperception. The orders doesn't say that. Alot of people have tried to read it that way. But no matter how they try, it just isn't there. I realise that most people think that coordinated orders in that day and age wasn't the standard or the norm. Alot of battles were planned and timed, even during the Civil War. I can find no reason to suggest that such a plan would not have worked. And indeed it would have had Custer not deviated."
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AZR ~ "Do you mean misconception?"
No AZR I meant misperception!
Perception ~ The quality, state, or capability, of being affected by an external idea or notion. ie...These ideas and notions are not the product of your rational belief and judgement, but someone elses!
Conception ~ The image, idea, or notion of any action or thing which is formed in the mind; a concept; a notion; a universal; the product of a rational belief or judgment. These ideas and notions are the direct product of your rational belief and judgement, not formed upon the basis of some "external" affectation thereof.
As far as Gibbon's orders go, as it has been said, Terry was accompanying his column. So quite naturally Gibbon's orders would have changed when Herendeen returned. Had Herendeen been sent through, as the orders specifically stated. Perhaps the one clear order in the whole thing. Then Gibbons orders would have been altered to fit Custer's change of plans. Something Custer obviously with intent, considered. Gibbon's statements after the fact would mean very little regarding his role. Only Terry knew what his intentions were. And by the text of his orders, not one person can read into them a Hammer and Anvil theory. It just isn't there. |
Edited by - Benteen on February 01 2006 10:13:11 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 10:19:11 AM
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Wild, with all respectful calm, you've got to control your hyperbole gene. That, or know what you're talking about. There are, in fact, no circumstances which can suggest Gibbon was an amateur compared with Custer. In fact, he had had more battle experience than Custer, some with Indians. He headed up the Iron Brigade. Custer had very little experience with Indians as well. Only Crook had a lot, in fact, at the time of the LBH.
In any case, Terry's orders don't in any way suggest a two pronged anything, much less a coordinated two pronged anything, or much beyond the hope that the Indians would be forced to face at least one and maybe, with luck, both small forces against them. If Custer had accepted the guns and cavalry, the orders, safe to say, would have been different.
"What matters is that the headwaters was the last place the Indians could turn off." What in the world are you talking about? Why would this remotely be true? How could that be true?
I realize you're all intimidated by my thumb and forefinger, hereinafter the Chrisman-Heidecher Measurement Device, but you can just type in map of Wyoming in Google and/or Tongue River Map and see. It IS hard to justify why one insignificant stream gets blessed with the headwater label and the numerous others do not, but it's generally conceded that the Tongue originates in the Bighorns. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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Smcf
Captain
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 10:23:09 AM
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Having struck the hot trail and gone too far into a position where he believed they'd been discovered, Custer had little option at that point. Had he believed the Indians were unaware of his approach, then its interesting to speculate what he'd have done after his promised day's rest, bearing in mind his assumption that the Terry/Gibbon column would just be at the mouth of the LBH on 26th. Terry's complaint that Custer didn't scout Tulloch's Creek was to firstly to infer disobedience on Custer's part and secondly, that if he had, the time spend would have provided sufficient delay for his (Terry's) troops to have become involved. Sherman supported Custer's decision to attack, but only from the point at which that decision was made.
Custer was close enough by 24th to have kept left and scouted west as per Terry's written thoughts to Sheridan. His first mistake was blundering into a position where he was forced to make a snap call. The second was his choice of battle tactics afterwards, IMHO. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 2:21:04 PM
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DC
He headed up the Iron Brigade. I have checked all my sources on Civil /Indian war cavalry units and cannot find the Iron Brigade mentioned.Guess it was an undercover unit!
What in the world are you talking about? Why would this remotely be true? How could that be true?
If you took your grubby thumb and forefinger off the map and put that crow back on it's perch you just might make out the Bighorn mountains South of the Tongue.Not a place to take your Summer wander with wife and kids.The head waters of the Tongue were the last stop before the LBH.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 2:39:38 PM
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1. Which shows how weak your sources are. It wasn't cavalry. Go to Google, type in iron brigade. Hundreds of references. It's quite famous. And large.
2. "What matters is that the headwaters was the last place the Indians could turn off and to ensure the success of the pincer movement Custer should perhapsproceed that far." The Indians could turn off at any point. What in the world do you mean? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 9:43:41 PM
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"No AZR I meant misperception!"
Your Query of: misperception Found No Matching Entries.
Did you mean:
perception <?SearchType=3&Keyword=perception>
apperception <?SearchType=3&Keyword=apperception>
misconception <?SearchType=3&Keyword=misconception> This is from a website but the question of did you mean misconception was mine before going to this website today. Before this I checked all dictionaries at our office couldn't find misperception. I found it used on the INTERNET in many different ways but none matched you definition using perception and conception as a guide. Lastly I checked my Blacks Law Dictionary wasn't there. So I don't think my question was out of line to you. When you use words not in a dictionary of common use you are subject to everyones misconception.
"Definitions misconception noun
1. A wrong or misguided attitude, opinion or view.
Thesaurus: misunderstanding, error, blunder, delusion, fallacy, misreading.
If the above is not what meant please explain.
"Perception ~ The quality, state, or capability, of being affected by an external idea or notion. ie...These ideas and notions are not the product of your rational belief and judgement, but someone elses!" Could not find this anywhere what is your source?
per·cep·tion Pronunciation: p&r-'sep-sh&n Function: noun Etymology: Latin perception-, perceptio act of perceiving, from percipere 1 a : a result of perceiving: OBSERVATION b : a mental image : CONCEPT 2 obsolete : CONSCIOUSNESS 3 a : awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation b : physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience 4 a : quick, acute, and intuitive cognition : APPRECIATION b : a capacity for comprehension
perception - in humans, the process whereby sensory stimulation is translated into organized experience. That experience, or percept, is the joint product of the stimulation and of the process itself. Relations found between various types of stimulation (e.g., light waves and sound waves) and their associated percepts suggest inferences that can be made about the properties…
"Conception ~ The image, idea, or notion of any action or thing which is formed in the mind; a concept; a notion; a universal; the product of a rational belief or judgment. These ideas and notions are the direct product of your rational belief and judgement, not formed upon the basis of some "external" affectation thereof."
Again source for this definition verbatim as above?
Main Entry: con·cep·tion
Pronunciation: k&n-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 a : the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both b : EMBRYO, FETUS
2 a : the capacity, function, or process of forming or understanding ideas or abstractions or their symbols b : a general idea
Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
con·cep·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-spshn)n.
Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization. The entity formed by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; an embryo or zygote.
The ability to form or understand mental concepts and abstractions.
Something conceived in the mind; a concept, plan, design, idea, or thought. See Synonyms at idea.
Archaic. A beginning; a start.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
"A common misperception. The orders doesn't say that." What perception did you use to see the word order in your quote of me as follows: AZR ~ "I think Gibbon was to block any escape down the LBH and Custer was to engage and/or drive them toward Gibbon if they fled." The only time I used the wordsTerry's Order was in the first of the paragraph and this was in regards to the distances being impossible for both columns to be a specific point on a certain day.
Spell check for posting on this thread would not accept mispercetion it wanted it hyphenated or separated.
Only Terry knew what his intentions were. On that point we agree. But aren't orders used to explain intentions? As DC pointed out to me that the headwaters of the Tongue are southwest of the Rosebud in Wyoming in the Bighorn Mountains. Terry must have used the map I had in the books listed previous. At least I could see the Tongue running off the bottom of the page and knew it was farther than 15 miles. Apparently Terry had no clue where the headwaters were located. If Custer had followed the orders literally he might have ended up trout fishing with Crook. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
Edited by - AZ Ranger on February 01 2006 9:59:53 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 10:07:08 PM
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http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-1953(198821)18%3A4%3C675%3AWAM%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8
or
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~ssiegel/papers/msp/msp5_02.html
If you type in Google misception, you get hits.
In any case, without speaking for him, I think Wild meant misconception, but an "erroneous perception" works. Why that bothers above the subject-verb agreement puzzles, though. The thing about English is that it changes daily. I still physically recoil when I hear "irregardless", a double negative (with regard to, regardless of, IR(not)-regardless of?)but it is now accepted, error and all, as a synonym for regardless. Thanks, Kennedys. Who were also Irish...... Hm. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 01 2006 : 10:17:11 PM
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"In any case, without speaking for him, I think Wild meant misconception, but an "erroneous perception" works."
DC--This was Benteens post not Wilds. Wilds style while argumentative is not the same. I would accept erronous perception because in means that stimuli was not percieved correctly. It does not mean "These ideas and notions are not the product of your rational belief and judgement, but someone elses!" as Benteen stated. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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Topic |
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Custer's Orders
