| Author |
 Topic  |
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 25 2004 : 10:12:33 PM
|
| Merry Christmas my friend, and a happy new Year. |
  |
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 07 2005 : 11:38:51 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Most people who "study" LBH are there to find a hero and to praise and sometimes worship him, admitted or not. If you're one of them, more power to you and all but you're not seeking truth, you're seeking myth and self affirmation from it, and not history. We all do this to one degree or another. It's only bad when there is confusion or outright dishonesty about one's own motivation.
What drew me to learning about Little Bighorn was the dramatic tragedy--that is, Custer's tragedy (what were those last minutes like--not unlike the massacre of the Russian royal family in 1918)--but the more I read, the more I felt drawn to my Native American roots--and my family's specific tragedies in the late 19th Century.
Still, I find Custer the fascination. As I am an out-and-out enjoyer of Van De Water, I hardly consider myself a "hero-worshipper." When I read LBC's books, I moan and groan. I also had problems with Sklenar. I have problems with the "excuse makers." Custer was a human, made human mistakes--and at LBH, he proved not the glory hunter, but rather, unable to adapt to or to consider a foe who didn't run ...
Now as for Libbie's post-Autie monetary situation--it's clearly marked out in Leckie's "Elizabeth Bacon Custer and The Making of A Myth," page 207, and pgs. 217-219;
"... Elizabeth discharged her husband's debts at ten cents on the dollar and paid court costs and attorney fees, her husband's estate was depleted. She was left with her pension and some income from the 'Army and Navy Journal' fund ..." pg. 219.
He left her--for all practical purposes--broke.
Regards, |
movingrobe |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
 Posted - January 13 2005 : 08:03:22 AM
|
Just so that I'm first back.
You must be old enough to have met the woman DC? |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 13 2005 : 12:43:03 PM
|
And to have legally bought her drinks. The gossip columnists never forgave me, I'm afraid. But, all in the past. All in the past.
I was here first, I'm sure. It was noble spirit and great humility that stayed my hand to post first.
Also, I have the complete pages - or more so, anyway - than were saved by the server before it went down if the administrator wants them. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 13 2005 : 9:06:12 PM
|
| Movingrobewoman, thank you for your factual and informative response. It appears to confirm my thought that Libbies income was, in fact, "meager" but, she was not "destitute." The reality is that while being "broke" is certainly undesirable, "destitution" is the pits. As always, your posts are extremely well done. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 13 2005 : 11:40:30 PM
|
AT the time of his death she was destitute, broke, and lived on money owed others; she tried to con an insurance company that a premium for Custer's parents had been paid because he hadn't told her otherwise. Apparently, the debt was simply forgiven.
Custer did not provide for her, and left her poorer than when she married him by a great deal.
With many - not all - of her (husband's)creditors screwed to 10 cents on the dollar, she had about $1k at the later time of the settlement of his estate plus her pension income. Of course, she did not honor her husband's gambling debts, laughingly called debts of honor, or his shady business debts. She lived with and on many kindnesses of friends and utter strangers for the rest of her life and simply pretended those ethical debts of Custer didn't exist. Can't say as I blame her, but the fact remains Custer was a skunk with money, his or someone else's. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2005 : 1:15:14 PM
|
Dark, now do you feel better? Have you never heard that time when Custer made violence on children, killed pregnant women, and, you remember the great train robbery? He was there too...And, oh yes, he was also the man that put Jesus on the cross, and then was a friend of Lucifer and...oh my God: he is the Chief of the Evil Forces!
Your claims about Libbie are untrue. But already told our different point of view. If you read the historian that you quoted once, Leckie, for exemple in the foreword to "tenting on the plains" she gives quite a different situation of the one you developed. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2005 : 1:55:56 PM
|
Really, Lorenzo? What quote would you select from that introduction to make your point? You might want to read page 237 of Leckie's bio:
Furthermore, the court added, Justh had known the circumstances, since Custer could never have paid for almost $400,000 worth of transactions. "The disparity between the pecuniary ability of Custer and the immense amount of purchases and sales within a half a year's time, would certainly be regarded by business men as a circumstance in contradiction of the idea that he intended to make actual contracts so much beyond his means of payment."6 If any doubt remained, Custer's letters to Justh enjoining secrecy reinforced the court's belief "that they refer to an illicit business, with which Custer was rather ashamed to be connected." The soldier had used the language "men use when speaking of their so-called 'debts of honor,' and not of their legitimate, ordinary money transactions."7
That's all on top of everything else, like his sutler deals.
Do you deny any of this, Lorenzo? And based upon what? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2005 : 2:54:45 PM
|
| Did she never team up with Buffalo Bill?Bill's wild west show always had a reenactment of the LS. |
|
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2005 : 6:12:17 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Movingrobewoman, thank you for your factual and informative response. It appears to confirm my thought that Libbies income was, in fact, "meager" but, she was not "destitute." The reality is that while being "broke" is certainly undesirable, "destitution" is the pits. As always, your posts are extremely well done.
Thank you, Mr. Wiggs! Whatever the circumstances were, Libbie was forced to take a job with the Society of Decorative Arts in New York City shortly after her husband's estate was settled. I don't know how often the economics of the 19th Century forced widows to work--but it does seem remarkable that Libbie had to--given the inheritance she received from her father--all spent by her husband.
But if Nomad could make money from writing ... perhaps his Standby could do the same ... hmmm ...
Hoka hey! |
movingrobe |
|
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2005 : 6:18:07 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Did she never team up with Buffalo Bill?Bill's wild west show always had a reenactment of the LS.
I don't think so. I believe she attended many of the Wild West Shows and had wonderful things to say about its depiction of the Last Stand (when it was included), but I don't think they (Wild Bill and LBC)were in cahoots or anything like that.
Regards, |
movingrobe |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2005 : 8:55:16 PM
|
| Bravo Movingrobewoman, I don't mean to embarrass you with "faint praise" but, your factual information in the midst of sometimes heated and emotional debate is like a gentle rain from heaven. I agree with your premise wholeheartedly. I feel, however, that an earlier usage of the word "destitute" (totally improverished), is simply to harsh a word to describe Libbie's actual condition. Despite monies spent by her husband, she was able and capable of establishing a meager income. She was not totally improverished. |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2005 : 9:58:12 PM
|
| If we are seeking factual information, what did "Wild Bill" have to do with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show? |
|
|
|
BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 14 2005 : 11:45:58 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by prolar
If we are seeking factual information, what did "Wild Bill" have to do with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show?
Wasn't that the reason that, after the "First Scalp for Custer", he left the Army columns and proceeded posthaste to New York City?
Billy |
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 12:30:33 AM
|
Yes, I deny all of this. The same author, in another book, later the biography of Libbie, give another view of this. And, furthermore, have you never heard of the mine affair? And of Custer to make reading in public? The mine would have get to Custer a lot, even enough to cover his debts, unfortunately he died previous. He had to get a lot of money from partners that never paid him (the mine partners), simply because the affair seemed and was (in the beginning) bad, then, few time after Big Horn, that partners become rich.
I never said Custer was a business man, surely made mistakes but he was'nt a killer or an outlaw. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 05:04:55 AM
|
If we are seeking factual information, what did "Wild Bill" have to do with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show?
For pity sake ya never heard of Wild Buffalo Bill? He was the cowboy who shot Wild Billy the Kid at a card game over at Wild Wyatt Earp's
place. |
|
|
|
prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 07:34:08 AM
|
| Wild I; Wasn't that Wild Billy Markland, the same fellow who invented gravity? |
|
|
|
whistlingboy
Lieutenant
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 09:34:01 AM
|
| Is it trying to be established that General Custer got his group annihilated because, for the sake of argument, he was not the best business man in the world; tried to get ahead through a risky gamble once in a while; used some of "Libby's" money for adventure or prospective fortune; etc.? I admit that my ol' fashion upbringing fails to muster up to the 'new thinking' of today but my view of 'marriage' is sharing and caring and General Custer and Libby's romantic relationship was one that could be a 'dream' in many peoples' eyes. I certainly do not condone many of the General's alleged habits but unless he actually 'stole' her money and they ran separate accounts, isn't it plausible that many of the situations were an 'agreed upon' way of life for the often separated couple? |
|
|
|
whistlingboy
Lieutenant
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 09:52:39 AM
|
| Maybe it doesn't work in today's environment but it sort of use to be that a wife shared her husband's life by 'honoring' him through her undying support and accepting her fate....going wherever he went, accepting the consequences of his decisions, wallowing in the mud and sunshine of the relationship, no matter what and to the end...'til death do they part. I have never read disdainful words of a 'cutting, back-stabbing' nature written by Libby Custer about her husband, alleged or otherwise. Has anybody else? At his premature death, Elizabeth Custer evidently knew what her fate had become, sat down and appraised the situation and tried to figure out what would be expedient and crucial to her survival. Recognizing any of her dead husband's faults would have had been an aberration in her character and would have made her a 'traitor' to her very life agreement. I have always admired her tenancity, her perserverence but especially her loyalty to her husband and his honor...for she knew him as he knew her...faults and all and if only we could all be as fortunate...I am ready to take my 'licks' but I am romantic, if nothing else. |
|
|
|
Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 11:51:57 AM
|
"From Merriam Webster On Line: destitute
One entry found for destitute.
Entry Word: destitute
Function: adjective
Text: 1
Synonyms DEVOID, empty, innocent, void
Related Word deficient; bankrupt, bankrupted, depleted, drained, exhausted; divested, stripped
Contrasted Words complete, full, replete
2
Synonyms POOR 1, dirt poor, impecunious, impoverished, indigent, necessitous, needy, penurious, poverty-stricken, stone-broke
Related Word depleted, drained, exhausted
Idioms on one's uppers, on the rocks
Contrasted Words comfortable, prosperous, well-fixed, well-off, well-to-do
Antonyms opulent"
She was destitute at her husband's death, and presented herself as such when begging for larger payouts from the government. Only when his estate was declared insolvent (Custer was bankrupt at his death) was his wife left with any money at all. Unless she was lying at the time, she didn't know of many of her husband's debts, and had no idea he was, and therefore she was, broke. Further, her income was his memory, so whether she was a hypocrite - and Leckie discusses this - is an open question. Her livelihood depended upon him being a great man, which nobody to that point had ever thought.
Quotes, Lorenzo. Citations. And every idiot in the West had a mine that was sure to come through for them.
His wife may or may not have known they as a couple were broke, but Custer surely did. To pretend that this absolute fact would or could not be a factor in his thinking is childish. Bankruptcy back then was a REAL embarrassment, especially for someone like Custer. A victory could give him the impetus to leave the Army and go on speaking tours and write and recover. To be broke AND defeated? To be broke and let the Indians get away? Just to be broke..... |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
|
|
|
joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 4:44:14 PM
|
| Thanks Whistlingboy,is it not amazing? Despite the numerous and scathing "faults" of the General enumerated thus far, his widow adored him to the day she died. She never mentioned her "begging" in her authored books that were impregnated with glowing references to her "darling beau" and other loving terms of endearment. I know of no source that proffers even the slightest hint that she rued any of his endeavors, business or otherwise. Your innovative premise that a couple could actually agree about business dealings (even those that fail) and, submit funds jointly is to be applauded. A misogynist you are not or you would have beeb entrapped in that time worn, and ubsubstatiated theory, that women are icapable of parity with their spouses. |
|
|
|
movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 15 2005 : 11:41:04 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by prolar
If we are seeking factual information, what did "Wild Bill" have to do with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show?
Nuttin. A long day, I suppose.
All those Bills ran haywire in my brain. Yeah, GAC had some, relatively positive, relationship with Wild Bill (I think LBC had an even greater fascination with him) whilst in Kansas, took Buffalo Bill as a scout/guide on the Great Hunting Adventure of 1872 with the Grand Duke Alexei Nikaelovich ... and Libbie showed up at the Wild West Show after her husband's death, praising Cody's LSH stuff ... oh, "desolate me ..."
Now as for Tom Custer, I don't think he had quite such a good relationship with Wild Bill ... not sure what, if any, he had with Buffalo Bill ...
Sorry for the confusion, gang. |
movingrobe |
|
|
|
whistlingboy
Lieutenant
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - January 16 2005 : 01:14:20 AM
|
Women may be one of the most powerful forces on earth. In my mind, Mr. Wiggs, they could very well be the most powerful force. The danger is looking at a woman's place in the 21st century and judging women in the 19th century by the same standards. It doesn't work. Natural woman hasn't changed but their perceived role in life has taken a new course. Mrs. Custer's 'locked in' role as a wife of an Army officer would not have allowed her to publicly denounce any misgivings on the part of her husband, even if she hadn't been mesmerized by his love and presence. In fact, that is what intrigues me the most about Mrs. Custer, given the words that have been written and printed attacking the character flaws of the General in his alleged dealings in business, indebtedness, gambling, etc. It is logically possible that she knew nothing about any of his 'flaws' and outlived him by over fifty years with her wholesome view of him but I don't think that idea could be sold to more than a couple of people in this world.
Her love for him was above reproach and seemed to be of such strength that it is almost unbelievable, maybe frightening. I have not read any journal article, magazine article, school research paper or whatever of someone writing about Mrs. Custer and claiming she said one sentence in the 'negative' against the General. Why does searching for the truth seem to always assume an 'attack' posture? If she was destitute, poor, etc. she lays no blame on the
General. I laugh when I read written accounts accosting her character, vilifying her business dealings and claims of her ripping off history by her ultrapositive views on her husband. She fully understood her 'role' as a woman, a wife and a confident. I am sure that 'behind closed doors' they probably had some misunderstandings that had to be worked out, but she was a team player and carried the ball to the end. Me and nobody else knows the absolute truth of the love between Autie and his woman. But it seems to be the natural inclination of people to be interested in controversy. After all, it is the bad news and the gossipy stuff that sells newspapers. Any publisher today would have told Mrs. Custer,when writing her books, to 'spice' it up a little so we can make some money. Maybe she should have had written a book about the battle on the hill after talking with a few soldiers. She probably would have had been more accurate than all the 'armchairs' today. The audience would have been ready to be 'picked' on that story....she could have 'cleaned up' and really would have had enjoyed her daily walks in New York City. |
|
|
|
lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - January 16 2005 : 05:38:50 AM
|
Great post!
That Libbie knew of her husband problems is showed by their correspondence. They talk about it. Much are the letters also where Custer explain his vain try (for long periods he arrived to resist) to win gambling tortures etc. It's so difficult today to see a true love and not dirty it with our prosaic and modernistic view. I have met a lot of people that call childish a true feeling...and, through the dynamics of love, the real one that is not made just of kisses but also passion, sacrifice,devotion, they call all this "calculation"
Very sensitive post. Thanks!
Dark, the mine affair is not an affair of all idiots of the west. It was a good affair, just slowly to start, and was looked from the General as the one who should have saved the situation. After the death of the General, that mine really started to be a very good affair, so good indeed that all partners became ritch. And someone still talk of the Custer's luck! |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
On Custer
