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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 06 2004 : 8:00:13 PM
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I was reading through some orders contained in Overfeld's The Little Big Horn 1876: The Official Communications, etc. and came across the orders detailing Maj. Reno to proceed on his scout:
"Maj. M. A. Reno, 7th Cavalry, with six companies (the right wing) of his regiment, and one gun from the Gatling battery, will proceed, at the earliest practical moment, to make a reconnoissance of the Powder River from the present camp to the mouth of the Little Powder. From the last-named point he will cross to the head waters of Mizpah Creek, and descend that creek to its junction with Powder River; thence he will cross the Pumpkin Creek and Tongue River, and descend the Tongue to its junction with the Yellowstone - where he may expect to meet the remaining companies of the 7th Cavalry and supplies of subsistence and forage.
Major Reno's command will be supplied with subsistence for twelve days, and with forage for the same period, at the rate of two pounds of grain per day for each animal."
A footnote states that companies B, C, E, F, I and L of the 7th Cavalry accompanied Reno. Reno left about 3 p.m. on 6/10 and on the day that Crook fought the Rosebud battle, 6/17, Overfeld states that Reno's force was about 40 miles from the battle. Reno's command reached Gibbon's column on 6/18.
The question I have is whether the Gatling gun actually accompanied Reno on his scout and if so, whether Reno's input into the problems caused by hauling it across the wilderness contributed to Custer's decision not to take them with him?
Also, the order appears to answer a question we had some time ago regarding the amount of forage provided for the horses and mules, 2 pounds / day. Sheesh, for the LBH expedition that would have been stocked for 15 days (per Army and Navy Journal article 7/15/1876).
615 troops, scouts, Custer kin, packers?. (583 7th Cav.)
5 extra mounts
185 pack mules (no wonder Benteen was exasperated the entire trip)
805 mounts x 2 lbs. x 15 days = 24,150 lbs of forage alone!! Somewhere, sometime (during the great "Burma mule" controversy) I saw the recommended loading weight for a pack mule. I will have to find it but figure 200 pounds as an estimate. That would give them a conjectured recommended load limit of 37,500 pounds.
I am looking for the data and hope I can find it before the two hour edit window closes.
Best of wishes,
Billy
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 06 2004 : 10:32:10 PM
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| Billy, I can't cite a source just now, but yes Reno had the Gatling guns (two I believe) with him. They caused a lot of trouble and were left behind at one time and retrived later. Don't know how this influenced Custer. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2004 : 07:17:39 AM
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Thanks Prolar. It was just a curiosity on my part. I will make the assumption that Reno's report of the difficulties with the Gatlings did somewhat influence Custer as they both were, supposedly, professionals. I am sure noise would have been a factor also. If they left sabers behind due to noise, can you imagine the noise the Gatling battery would make?
Best of Christmas Wishes,
Billy |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 10 2004 : 10:24:54 PM
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Billy, better late than never? Gatling-guns were with Terry on his march and encumbered him much as Custer would have known. Col. Gibbon had a battery of gatlin-guns with him also. This battery had a great deal of difficulty keeping up with the command and, actually, became separated and wandered off a mile or so before being recovered. Each gun (in all cases I believe)were drawn by four condemned Cavalry horses.
Major Reno set out, on his "scout" with six troops and a Gatling gun. The Gatlin-gun battery was constantly "derailed" because of the broken terrain Reno encountered. Often, the horses had to be unhitched while troopers pushed the guns up one ravine after another. Reno was supplied with rations and forage for ten days. While he and Custer were not friendly, surely the troubles of Reno's "scout" were relayed to the General orally by someone if not Reno himself. Much of this information was gathered from "Custer's Luck" by Edgar I. Stewart.
Merry Christmas and Hip, Hip for the Boomer Sooners at the Orange Bowl. Who are you rooting for? |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - May 23 2005 : 2:25:10 PM
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Well Joe i'm a bit of a Big Twelve fan myself. Have a few teams that i'm not fond of, but OU is not one of them.
Billy the orders stated that Benteen was to..."descend the Tongue to its junction with the Yellowstone... Was this done, did Reno get that far? |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 29 2005 : 8:34:04 PM
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Benteen, as long as OU is not on your "not fond" of list, you sir are a friend of mine!
Reno did not "descend the Tongue to its junction with the Yellowstone" as General Terry specifically ordered. Rather, "On the afternoon of Sunday, June 18, Major Reno and his detachment came out of the mouth of Rosebud Creek instead."(E.I. Stewart)
Reno's scout proved that no hostile Indians were on the Powder River or the upper reaches of the Tongue. They did find, however, a large trail more than a 1/2 mile wide made by thousands of lodge poles in the valley of the Rosebud. Such a discovery and, the advice of his Indian scouts, prompted him to return to camp post haste and I do not blame him one iota. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
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Posted - May 30 2005 : 7:03:37 PM
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Did Terry reprimand him in any way for his "disobedience"? This is one area that interest me alot. And one area where my research has tended to go over the years. It is interesting how "orders" were percieved back then, as opposed to the way "orders" are perceived say from WWI on. I think alot depends upon these perceptions. Each and every officer it seems tends to break these quite regularly. While the trail would of course be of great significance, what would Reno have run across had he gone on and completed the assignment as ordered?
And No, OU is not a fav. I will watch them on tv and of course cheer for them under certain circumstances, but no I'm not a regualar OU fan. Keep going you have only 11 more to find out which one is my personal favorite. :)
Benteen |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
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Posted - May 30 2005 : 9:07:42 PM
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Alas and Alack, Please don't tell me that you are a T**** fan! If its not T****, I'm down to ten. Be advised, I can forgive you for any selection other than T****.
Anyhow, to my knowledge, Reno was never officially reprimanded for his actions. General Terry was, however, extremely displeased. Terry wrote a letter to his sisters that Reno, "had done this in positive defiance of my orders not to go to the Rosebud, in the belief that there were Indians on that stream and that he could make a successful attack on them which would cover up his disobedience." The New York Herald quoted Custer as saying, "Few officers have ever had so fine an opportunity to make a successful and telling strike, and few have ever so completely failed to improve their opportunity."
My personally perspective is that both Terry and Custer were in error. Reno may have, initially, began his quest with grandiose ideas of conquest but, upon being advised by his scouts of the insurmountable foe that awaited him, wisely chose to defer. |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - May 31 2005 : 8:48:02 PM
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It's just as I figured. Was this action brought up at the Court of Inquiry? Surely if he had disobeyed any orders it was here. And if his being the scape goat for Custer and his mens death, this surely would have added weight to that arguement. But I highly suspect this was not even discussed there, am I right?
Nope not T****. I would bet your's is KSU, or perhaps MSU? Surely not CU?
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 03 2005 : 10:28:34 PM
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Benteen, my friend, to my knowledge the subject was never even mentioned at the Inquiry. My opinion is that Reno and Benteen were scape goated for the failure of this battle by Pro-Custer buffs. Reno's "charge" from the woods to the bluffs condemned him, unfairly, for the rest of his life. No man should be remembered eternally solely for one incident in his life. Benteen always, as he freely admitted, rubbed against the "grain" which resulted in negative insinuations being tossed at him as well. As I have continuously posted neither man, including Custer, was singularly responsible for the outcome of this battle. That legacy belongs to the politicians of that era.
I'm so glad you are not a T****fan, my wife would kill me if I spoke to a T**** fan. I'm OU all the way buddy! |
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Reno's Scout
