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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 11 2004 : 5:00:54 PM
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Just a question here--having finished "Lakota Noon," what are your opinions regarding Michno's "devaluation" of both Gall and Crazy Horse's importance to the Lakota/Cheyenne/Arapaho victory at LBH?
Thanks--
Movingrobewoman
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - July 11 2004 : 10:33:42 PM
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I too read "Lakota Noon" and I was somewhat puzzeled and confused by Michno's "devaluation"of both Gall and Crazy Horse's participation in the battle. He seems to be of the opinion that Gall spent a great deal of time running to and fro attempting to located his family. As a result, he apparently missed a great portion of the battle in this, understanable, endeavor. Crazy Horse, apparently, spent such an exorbitant amount of time in preparation for the battle that his men became impatient and, left without him.
Prior to Michno, everything I have read about these two warriors vividly conflicts with his theory. Crazy Horse, Gall, and Lame White man are usually acknowledged as the primary 'cause and effect' of Custer's defeat.
I believed that the Crazy Horse contingency tranversed Custer Ridge between Keough and Calhoun. Setting up on the eastern side of the ridge, Crazy Horse and his men fired into both positions. Just prior to that occurence, "C" troop(or a portion thereof) was deployed to protect Calhoun's led horses stationed in Calhoun Coulee which were being menanced by Lame White man's entourage. When the troopers initially rumbled into the coulee in a cloud of dust, the warriors apprehensively fell back. Encouraged by Lame White man they rallied. Almost simultaneously to these two events Gall and his men, who were positioned at the foot of Calhoun Hill, made their move. Gall observed that the horse handlers who, ordinarily, were assigned no more than four mounts were encumbered with eight or more. He, therefore, instructed his men to target the handlers. As a result, many mounts were lost and, panic ensued. The general chaos that resulted from this three prong attack led to a complete breakdown of military discipline. Shortly thereafter the situation became, as the warriors described it, a buffalo hunt. This is just my opinion. What do you think? |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - July 13 2004 : 4:01:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by movingrobewoman
Just a question here--having finished "Lakota Noon," what are your opinions regarding Michno's "devaluation" of both Gall and Crazy Horse's importance to the Lakota/Cheyenne/Arapaho victory at LBH?
Thanks--
Movingrobewoman
Hi Movingrobewoman – did you make it back home from LBH ok last month?
Michno is a friend of mine. I think “Lakota Noon” is the best book of Indian accounts because it compiles the majority, if not all, of the Indian accounts that we know of. And, Michno was very generous – he gave them to us all in one book, not like Hardoff who seems to enjoy putting out one small book, at a time, for $65 and up.
I think “Lakota Noon” should not be read as an end all. Instead, the book should be used as a reference for comparisons to other stories.
My personal opinion is that Crazy Horse did play an important role in the battle. I cannot believe that CH would spend extra time preparing himself for battle when the soldiers were so close to the village and dangerous to the non-combatants. CH would take as much time as he needed to prepare for battle when the advantage was his; Rosebud Battle for instance.
As far as Gall is concerned -- I think Michno raises some valid questions about Gall, but further study should be required.
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 11:18:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
What do you think?
Ugh. I think I'm too new at this to offer intelligent comments--but here goes. Lame White Man comes out of Michno as the Indian warrior hero for the ages. I do agree that Crazy Horse's charge towards Battle Ridge (separating I from C and L)was one of those straws that broke the camel's back--but I do have an issue with some authors (some who are little more than Custer apologists, IMHO) that insist that he led a charge of a thousand warriors . Now I was under the impression that it was, at first, I troop who would protect the horseholders (got that from Bob Snelson at the CBHMA seminar last month), which accounts for all them markers below (to the east) BR. But losing the horses was a significant development and the buffalo hunt that followed sealed the deal (I believe Michno points that out as well).
The one guy who really comes out of Michno stinky is poor White Cow Bull ... he just couldn't win his sweet Meotzie ...
I am really new at the battle stuff, so I apologize for mistakes of my rank amateurism.
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 14 2004 : 11:35:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
Hi Movingrobewoman – did you make it back home from LBH ok last month?
Made it back, but I think I left my brain and energy on Last Stand Hill ... and it was an honor to work the Deep Ravine trail. So many foreign tourists were curious about the NA memorial--why it took so darn long to put up and why it is so controversial with many battle buffs.
But getting to Michno, it was a wonderful, page-turning read--even my husband (whom you met) loved it (and he is not at all interested in LBH except through me--we joke that next year he's going to go antiquing with the CBHMA widows)! And it will make a great reference for my research. I did have to be careful in the "discussion" areas of the book. He used a lot of "coulds," which a casual reader might take for fact. I think you are right on with Crazy Horse (perhaps Michno offered a reaction for those that to overromaticise his "meeting" GAC) ... and Gall--well, from what I took away at the symposium this year, there weren't much of a fight with C ... especially after Harrington got offed.
But ultimately, Michno left me wanted to read more--I'm dying to read "Sand Creek!"
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2004 : 8:40:49 PM
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Movingrobewoman,
I think your analysis regarding Lame Whiteman and Cracy Horse are right on the money. Firstly, I don't believe that any Indian commander could muster a thousand followers, no matter how respected he/she may have been. Secondly, I think Lame White Mans "charge" was an understandable reaction to a deterioration of the Trooper's position due (according to Fox)a massive discharge of firearms from Greasy Grass Ridge. In other words, as the troopers "gave way" from this punishing fire, the embolden warriors followed up by "charging." Any battle is a fluid, complex, ever changing series of events that often occur simultanously. I believe that Lame White Man took advantage of this exchange to press forward. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - January 23 2005 : 8:36:50 PM
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"The dispute over the Mormon's cow led to the Grattan incident, which in turn led to General Harney's retaliatory attack on Little Thunder's camp one month shy of a year later. The Mormon cow incident, then, was a pivotal event in Lakota-White relations. It tipped the balance toward conflict and confrontation and away from honest negotiation. These events shaped the attitude of many Lakota males."
The Journey of Crazy Horse, Joseph Marshall III
The events that shaped the Lakota people produced a deep rooted hostility that was amply displayed on the wind swept hills of Montana, July 25, 1876. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 9:38:08 PM
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Faced with the aggressive approach of one of the greatest military powers in existence, Chief Crazy Horse had this to say:
"Ho-ka hey! It is a good day to fight! It is a good day to die! Strong hearts, brave hearts, to the front! Weak hearts and cowards to the rear" Crazy Horse, Sioux War Chief, June 25, 1876.
These were not mere words of bravado to be shouted out in a burst of macho egotism, they were the words of a man, and his followers, who were willing to forfeit their lives to save the lives of their loved ones. |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - February 20 2005 : 09:02:47 AM
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| Of course I believe Gall and Crazy Horse were both braves and had a great part on the battle. I also think that it was not a military strategy, in the common use of the word, to guide them, but desperation and anger. The strategy came out fighting, not planned as he would have done an army commander, indeed, they were surprised two times and they "react" to Custer attack. But I think no one can take out the "merit" of the victory to those two Chiefs - even if the greatest Chief that day was the Number. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
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Posted - February 20 2005 : 10:49:50 AM
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| Lorenzo, very well put! An excellent perspective regarding the superiority of numbers being the greatest "War Chief" on that day. Kudos Sir. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 27 2005 : 2:09:36 PM
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From a 1930 interview with He Dog regarding Crazy Horse:
"... All the time I was in fights with Crazy Horse, in critical moments of
the fight, Crazy Horse would always jump off his horse to fire. He is
the only Indian I ever knew who did that often. He wanted to be sure
that he hit what he aimed at. He didn't like to start a battle unless he
had it all planned out in his head and knew he was going to win. He
always used judgment and played safe. His brother and High Back Bone
were reckless. That is why they got killed.'
Seems like the 7th would have been better off with Crazy Horse commanding.
Billy |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 27 2005 : 2:28:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
From a 1930 interview with He Dog regarding Crazy Horse:
"... All the time I was in fights with Crazy Horse, in critical moments of
the fight, Crazy Horse would always jump off his horse to fire. He is
the only Indian I ever knew who did that often. He wanted to be sure
that he hit what he aimed at. He didn't like to start a battle unless he
had it all planned out in his head and knew he was going to win. He
always used judgment and played safe. His brother and High Back Bone
were reckless. That is why they got killed.'
quote:
Seems like the 7th would have been better off with Crazy Horse commanding.
Billy
Although I've never looked at it that way before, there is much wisdom in what you say. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 27 2005 : 8:00:16 PM
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| Hunk 7, may I truly commend you for your efforts? I appreciate your contributions. Thank you! Between you and Billy we all have a wealth of information to enjoy. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 27 2005 : 8:17:19 PM
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quote:
Is the leftmost horseman Gall?
Thanks,
Billy
I just don't know Billy. Gall was of such impressive stature. At 46 years of age he was described as a "powerful, fine-looking specimen of the red race and weights over two hundred pounds."
In photographs of him that I have seen, he appears to have a beer-barrel chest and a wide face with extremely high cheek bones, even for an Indian. I have never discovered a picture of him wearing a full-feather bonnet as does the warrior in your fascinating photo. Usually he is pictured with a single feather standing center, upward. If I had to vote, I would say that this is not him. |
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JasonBury
Private
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - July 18 2005 : 07:15:16 AM
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| I must admit i am yet to read Lakota Noon but plan to as soon as possible....it is interesting to read different opinions on Gall's role in the battle....for me Gall is my favourite figure of LBH.....photos of him have always impressed me.....he looked proud, strong and defiant....can you imagine facing him in all his glory on the battlefield!!.....another Indian leader I think gets little credit but was a very important figure in the Reno fight was Crow King.....I must admit my reading isnt as extensive as most of you but i thought i might post about my favourite- Gall |
cheers
Jason |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 30 2005 : 9:21:53 PM
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Lakota Noon's references to Gall are somewhat suspect,to me,as I have posted on a prior occasion. Michno reduces Gall's role as an Indian leader and, participant in the battle, to a bare minimum. His findings have some merit if one considers the Indian style of fighting. Then the author's comments do not necessarily mean a condemnation of Gall as a warrior. Warriors were very individualistic fighters. A war chief amassed his followers due to earned prestige in his outstanding actions in social areas deemed important to the Indian society. However, this did not mean that any chief could give orders that would be necessarily followed.
However, Lakota Noon has Gall running from one point to another, consistently missing,like a morbid comedy of errors, an opportunity to engage in actual combat with the "Wasicun's" who killed his wife and children.
According to James McLaughlin, Gall and Crow King were both highly regarded as war-chiefs by their people. Lt. Godfrey perceived Gall as a man of "tremendous character, natural ability, and great common sense." Elizabeth Custer had this to say, "Painful as it is for me to look upon the pictured face of an Indian, I never in my life dreamed there could be in all the tribes so fine a specimen of a warrior as Gall." He himself claimed during an interview years after the battle, "I killed a great many."
A powerfully built individual(years later he weighed in at 260 lbs.) he must have been a frightening sight(in his youth) to the soldiers who encountered him. Selecting Gall as a favorite is perfectly understandable. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on July 30 2005 9:34:17 PM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 03 2005 : 10:46:06 PM
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| I feel amiss, to have mentioned great Indian Leaders and not to have referred to the magnificent, Crazy Horse. A mysterious man endowed with such superior leadership qualities that,even his surrender did not diffuse the wachicu's fear of his ability to foster continuous admiration from his fellow tribesmen. Hence his innate ability to foster admiration which may lead to rebellion could only be quelled with his death;so he died. |
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JasonBury
Private
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2005 : 05:23:09 AM
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| Crazy Horse is an enigma.....growing up he was my hero but now as a wider read adult who is built, lets say on the chunky side, Gall has become my favourite..... |
cheers
Jason |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 06 2005 : 10:36:03 PM
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| Jason, this is not an attempt to convince you to elevate Crazy Horse above Gall in your admiration of either men. However, if you get a change to read "The journey of Crazy Horse" by Joseph M. Marshall, you may agree that both men were exceptional leaders, in different ways, and worthy of exceptional esteem. |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
 Posted - August 07 2005 : 8:39:17 PM
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Another thing to remember is that Gall became a puppet for the government
There was not much truth came out of him after the LBH |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2005 : 10:07:18 PM
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| Hunk, I agree with you. Such a fact is filled with sadness though. This magnificent, human specimen who commanded the respect of all did resort to telling the "White" man exactly what he wanted to hear. At the end, he chose to survive as best he could. God bless him and the others who discovered themselves in a similar predicament. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 29 2005 : 10:15:11 PM
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HE MIGHT HAVE LIVES...
"One man, he thought it was an officer, was the last to live. He was mounted on a splendid horse, and seeing all his comrades dead, started up the ravine marked "I" in the diagram." Mrs. Spotted Tail.
Who was this individual?
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 24 2006 : 7:11:08 PM
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"By now we saw that our warriors were all charging on some soldiers that had come from the hill up river to help the second band that we had rubbed out."
Black Elk Speaks, page 94 (paper back)
I have often wondered, as have many others, exactly what Capt. Weir observed as he gazed through binoculars towards Calhoun Hill which was encased in sweltering and swirling dust on that hot, summer day in Montana. The fallen bodies of the men of "L" troop being fired upon by the embolden warriors who blood lust was boiling over in an emotional rampage. Is it possible that a portion of Custer's battalion were still alive?
Apparently this "band" from up river was the Weir enclave which was quickly repulsed. if this is the case then Custer and his men were already "rubbed" out by the time Weir arrived. |
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shadymist
Private
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Posted - September 28 2006 : 3:10:33 PM
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<I have often wondered, as have many others, exactly what Capt. Weir observed>
Weir never said . . . even though he told Libbie Custer he had "things" to tell her.
Edgerly stated many years later the hills were black with Indians and they were shooting at objects on the ground. It was only by that time did he say it was Custer's men the "objects" were.
Edgerly was lower and further ahead than Weir so may have been closer and had a better angle to see what was going on. |
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Crazy Horse and Gall Participation
