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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 21 2004 : 1:03:38 PM
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| If one buy's into the 125 old year,"fatalistic" theory in which Custer was met by a hoard of Indians at Ford "B", forced back towards Calhoun Hill and, subsequently overwhelmed at Custer Hill; so be it. There are many who do. The problem with this theory is that it excludes any possibility of other options occurring. This, in turn, would exclude all investigations, studies, theories, and physical information obtained in the last twenty years. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 4:48:37 PM
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Twenty years or longer. Investigations are only that, their conclusions as iffy as anyone's.
The new theories exist to explain the positions and types of cartridges found, although we don't know who fired them when or at what at a field that was pillaged and worse for decades. If Indian kids went out and collected cartridges for toys or whatever and the mother told them to throw them away, we have an "Indian/soldier position" at the point of deposit.
If helpful superintendents salted the field with casings so VIP tourists had something to take with them, those still on the field are proof of varied Indian weaponry. If salutes were fired over graves, officially or not, or wanderers shot up the place, or any number of variously possible and probable events transpired in any combination at a place of deep emotional significance to a lot of folks, you can just drop kick a lot of Scott and Fox's findings into Hardin for all the relevance they have. It could ALL be true, but we have no, actual untainted evidence. Nor any first hand Indian testimony (zero), and little reliable Army help. And for the first half century, it didn't look like there was a burning desire for actual truth.
It was a fiasco, a gigantic cluster**** of confusion: the Indians were surprised and reacted late and badly but in force, the Army divided and - whatever the plan was, if any - the battle was badly done. Neither side looks competent and what they've discovered in the last twenty years is that the rabid Custerphiles can blend their hopes for treason and betrayal and cowardice with the Native Americans' hopes for a downgrade to a tiny village and ferocious defense by at one with nature culture heroes and sob together over it all.
The blending of agendas can appear attractive, but it isn't necessarily - or to my view, remotely - likely, consistent, or true. The biggest impediment to reading this event and what it spawned are the preconceived catharses desired from it. Individual fables with pre-tested morals to stimulate known emotions. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 07:44:40 AM
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Dark Cloud
the Indians were surprised and reacted late and badly
Late but not badly,but perhaps you would like to explain.
Neither side looks competent.
I think that far from being incompetent the residents of the LBH aquitted themselves exceeding well.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 12:11:08 PM
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Late IS badly, but leaving that aside they had made no arrangements for communications in a large camp and allowed themselves to be subject to attack from two directions, whereas they could have forced the battle in the narrowness of the Reno Creek valley away from endangering their families, they also pointlessly lost men counting coup, or in other demonstrations of bravery to no point. They failed to destroy Reno and Benteen despite all the goods, horse, arms they could have used and allowed them to stay on their perimeter despite huge numerical advantage and equivilant arms or better. Incompetence: they were given a much bigger victory on a platter.
The Seventh didn't know what it was attacking till one element irrevocably went in. Custer bypassed an avenue of attack to unknown purpose or end, allowed his command to end up without cover on exposed hillsides where it was slaughtered in its entirety. There was no coherent plan, there was insufficient recon, there was no Plan B if the attack failed and they were burdened with wounded. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 2:27:45 PM
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but leaving that aside they had made no arrangements for communications in a large camp and allowed themselves to be subject to attack from two directions, whereas they could have forced the battle in the narrowness of the Reno Creek valley away from endangering their families
You are judging primitives by the same criteria you use to judge a professional cavalry regiment.The Indians had as much stratigic and tactical knowhow as a street mob.But they did have that blind courage of a race fighting for it's very existance.
they also pointlessly lost men counting coup, or in other demonstrations of bravery to no point
You think demonstrations of bravery are pointless?I won't even try to explain the motivating effect a brave act has on a body of troops.
They failed to destroy Reno and Benteen
Depends on your definition of destroy.They did in fact destroy them as a fighting element.
The Seventh didn't know what it was attacking till one element irrevocably went in
I'm in absolute agreement with this but I think I go further than you when I say Custer's actions were criminal. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 3:35:28 PM
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No, Wild, I'm not judging them like a cavalry unit, but as a nomadic group that had up close and personal reasons to be on alert in a violent world, where they knew cavalry was on the loose, and had in fact started this gathering as a kick in the groin to white authority - and yet they were surprised AT THE CAMP. They apparently assumed that cavalry would scout the camp and reveal it as too big to be attacked. Custer assumed it didn't matter how big it was and that Indian scouts would alert the camp and it would run, so he had to attack without scouting it out at all.
The only thing more embarrassing for the Indians would be if a herd of bison approached unnoticed,stampeded over it, and escaped unscathed. Of course, they did win, because the army failure was greater than their own.
Yes, Wild, demonstrations of bravery for no purpose but the demonstration of bravery are pointless and selfish. Bravery doing your duty for miltary end is different. For your own glory, so called, you risk the safety of family and clan. Just like doughboys hated courageous/not bright officers standing in dramatic poses, revealing their position, and calling down enemy fire on everyone.
No doubt you have heroic tales to - reluctantly, of course - tell but to be applicable make sure they serve no purpose to the mission and just indicate bravery to inspire the others who are watching. Then, explain whether the group enthusiasm would be greater or lesser if the Hero is killed with everyone watching than it was before. What are you risking when you do something so foolish? If Crazy Horse had been shot dead during his first alleged bravery run, would the Oglala take that as a sign to retire? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 03:50:22 AM
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They apparently assumed that cavalry would scout the camp and reveal it as too big to be attacked. Custer assumed it didn't matter how big it was and that Indian scouts would alert the camp and it would run, so he had to attack without scouting it out at all.
Two assumptions Dark cloud and it seems the professionals got it wrong while the Summer campers got it right.
Bravery doing your duty for miltary end is different.
Then, explain whether the group enthusiasm would be greater or lesser if the Hero is killed with everyone watching than it was before
Like I say you're judging the Indians from an organised military point of view and assuming that the death of Crazy Horse or any other prominent warrior would have thrown the Indians into confusion and retreat.I can be corrected here but it is my understanding that Indian society was individualistic in nature.That chiefs were just first amoung equals and for all practical purposes there were 1500 Crazy Horses at the LBH each trying to outdo the other in bravery.
On that one day,in that one battle the uncontrolled fury of a primitive system was totally superior to the Westpoint regimental system where if we are to place any credance on your theory the death of one man ensured the destruction of a cavalry regiment.
Regards |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 08:33:09 AM
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If the summer campers were to get it right, they would never have been attacked.
If CH, as we are told, inspired guys with his bravery runs, would the reverse be true? If he'd been killed right off?
My theory, which is not really mine but is an old one, is that Custer's failure is not a systematic one because, if true, it's an example of his operating outside the system with family and not rank. If his brother swooped up a wounded Custer and essentially demanded that they get to some safety so his wounds could be attended to, the spray of bodies from MTC east and north makes sense, as does the whole movement. I cannot fathom it otherwise. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 09:24:16 AM
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If the summer campers were to get it right, they would never have been attacked.
The very fact that they were attacked ment that they got it right.It was the defining moment in a clash of civilations.With the possible exception of the Zulu I cannot think of another "primitive" race who made such a stand.The LBH ensured their destruction but also their imortality.
If CH, as we are told, inspired guys with his bravery runs, would the reverse be true? If he'd been killed right off?
Being killed is not the reverse.Doing a runner would be the reverse but then that was not his nature.
If his brother swooped up a wounded Custer and essentially demanded that they get to some safety so his wounds could be attended to
I can't accept that Tom Custer[twice medal of honour winner]would place a higher priority on the life of his brother than that of his comrades.I can't accept that Cooke, who just a few moments before had sent off a desperate message for assistance would suspend operations and ignore the chain of command just to nurse a wounded Custer.600 men engaged in a fight to the death and it's hold everything Custer has been wounded????
Custer's failure is not a systematic one
Custer's failure was as I have stated before manuevering far too close to a hornets nest.
Regards |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 5:00:32 PM
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You're beginning to sound (and spell) like Wiggs, Wild. By paragraph:
1.How in the world is this pointless battle the defining moment? They were cooked far earlier, and Wounded Knee wrapped it up. What in the world would have ended up different if there'd been no Sioux War of 1876? Not much, I'd say. It was a warrior camp failing in warrior virtues of being alert to danger. They were already instilled in literature and myth.
2. The whole point of the bravery runs was to prove that fate/spirits great and small/luck was with him/them that day. If he'd been killed, alternated interpretations would be made. If he'd run, aside from being considered a coward, no other interpretation would be made.
3. It only reads like a desperate message in hindsight; nobody - including Weir - thought it alarming at the time. Tom Custer's forays, while brave, were foolhardy like CH's. The General was the good luck totem of the 7th, and had to be preserved, perhaps. Few would want to explain why they left Custer to be mutilated, especially to Mom and Dad, and at that point it's possible nobody except Custer knew what or why they were doing whatever they were. Further, a wounded Custer can still give orders that need be obeyed. Conjecture on my part. Nobody was in a fight to the death at that point.
4. Maybe. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 8:21:48 PM
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| tsk,tsk,tsk DC, just a few threads ago you asked the world who was posting for Wiggs as his spelling and grammer had improved immensely. Now, you insist upon using me as a negative example to Wild. For shame Sir, Wild does not deserve such an insult. Slander me as you will but, harm not a hair upon Wild's proud chest! |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 8:41:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Slander me as you will but, harm not a hair upon Wild's proud chest!
You're getting a little too homoerotic there, Wiggs ...... His hairy, proud chest?
R. Larsen
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 8:50:20 PM
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| I knew that comment would stir your interest. |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 8:58:37 PM
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I'm not sure that Wild knew his chest would stir yours.
R. Larsen |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 12:06:38 AM
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| I wish I was a moderator sometimes... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 06:30:04 AM
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How in the world is this pointless battle the defining moment? They were cooked far earlier,
They were cooked from the moment those pilgrim chapies arrived.They could have vanished off the face of the earth without a whimper.
Sure ,from a military point of view the LBH was pointless but from a symbolic point of view it ensured their imortality.
2. The whole point of the bravery runs was to prove that fate/spirits great and small/luck was with him/them that day.
You can put whatever simplistic interpretation you like on it.Would leadership,motivation,aggression sound better.Look at the use of military bands,flags and bugles--same difference.
It only reads like a desperate message in hindsight; nobody - including Weir - thought it alarming at the time.
What has Weir or hindsight got to do with it?It was Cooke who wrote it and he knew the situation was desperate.
The General was the good luck totem of the 7th, and had to be preserved, AND
The whole point of the bravery runs was to prove that fate/spirits great and small/luck was with him/them that day
You Dark Cloud of the cold unsentimental logic are hardly suggesting that the main motivating factor for both combatants was luck
Few would want to explain why they left Custer to be mutilated, especially to Mom and Dad,
Well they were sucessful then.Instead of the "good luck charm" being mutilated, 210 of them were.
Further, a wounded Custer can still give orders that need be obeyed
Considering that an unwounded Custer gave no coherant orders you're not suggesting that the round to the head cleared his mind.
Nobody was in a fight to the death at that point.
Who explained this to Crazy Horse.
Hi 81
Is 69 your sirname?
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 10:35:03 AM
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Wild, you need to get the Gray timeline tighter in your mind. At the time Cooke wrote the note, he didn't necessarily think the situation was desperate or even going badly. Again, it can be read as exciting development, yahoo! CH wasn't doing much then, either. Also: immortality. English major, bugs me. Go to the board and write it fifty times. No mumbling, you're chronically misspelling it and it ain't no typo.
Of course luck was a motivating agent to BOTH combatants. And to those who believe in such, logic is not exposed under emotional distress.
And no, I can't see the 7th watching Custer being cut up because they wouldn't take two seconds to haul his butt out. Custer received a wound on the left side. The head wound was probably a coup de grace later. And that's if any of it is true, of course.
And yes, Wiggs, you're an all purpose negative reference for any number of uses. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 2:54:44 PM
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immortality. English major, bugs me. Go to the board and write it fifty times. No mumbling, you're chronically misspelling it and it ain't no typo.
I'm old whatcha expect? and anyway I had to put up with you buggers spelling sabre incorrectly.
At the time Cooke wrote the note, he didn't necessarily think the situation was desperate or even going badly.
Isn't that an horrendous thought.A scattered command,their own battalion strung out like a daisy chain and a village streaching for miles containing God knows how many raging hostiles, no more than 30 seconds away and it hasn't dawned on Cookey and his boyscout chums that perhaps the wicket is getting a little stickey.
And no, I can't see the 7th watching Custer being cut up because they wouldn't take two seconds to haul his butt out.
No problem hauling his festering carcass out but to now follow his demented directions.Come on man get a grip.
Of course luck was a motivating agent to BOTH combatants.
Corporal those instructions on striping and assembling the general issue camel,well DC says they're bizzare so scrap them and replace them with a section on the care and cleaning of luck.
Slan |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 24 2004 : 4:10:09 PM
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Sabre, saber. Theatre, theater. Just different.
But unless you plan to paint a line down the dromedary, it ain't striping but stripping.
The Army doesn't acknowledge luck, but men do.
No problem when he really IS your brother: not heavy at all. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 06:46:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
It was Cooke who wrote it and he knew the situation was desperate.
What exactly did he know --- or rather, how can you know any of this?
quote:
Hi 81
Is 69 your sirname?
Well, no; I don't think you were here at the time, but long ago we used to be able to post without registering, and when we did so, the site would assign us an "Anonymous Poster" tag with a random number, based on each computer's IP. Rich changed that after some high-pitched whining from some of the goofs on the board, so when I came to register I used my old AP tag (a joke not quite as feeble as yours here, but I thought it was a little funny, and as a plus it may have served to annoy some of the goofs, who in their complaints seemed to most fixate on the use of the word "Anonymous" --- rather ironically, since at the time I was one of the few to actually use my real name in posting. Most of the gripers didn't). Rules, when unnecessary and essentially pointless, ought to be treated with a minimum of respect.
R. Larsen
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 09:30:24 AM
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What exactly did he know --- or rather, how can you know any of this?
He knew the command was fragmented and out of supporting range.
He knew the ammo was miles away.
He knew that Reno was in deep do do.
He knew that their battalion was all over the shop.
He knew that Custer hadn't a clue.
He knew the village was enormous.
He knew [if DCs theory is correct]that the chain of command was through the Custer family.
Now I think that adds up to a delicate situation to put it mildly.
"Anonymous Poster" tag with a random number
How fortunate you were to draw such a romantic name.
Seriously though,the user name is kinda important,it helps one conjur up a picture of the person you are debating with."Anonymous" does nothing for me.On the other "Dark Cloud" sounds ominious and you gotta do your research and get your spelling correct.
Best Regards
Richard |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 10:54:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
He knew the command was fragmented and out of supporting range.
I don't think it was possible for him to know all this. Reno was still fighting at the time, and he probably expected the battalions of Yates and Keogh to be engaged fairly soon. Otherwise, why continue north away from Reno? He could not know where Benteen was, and we have no idea of what he thought, except that since Martin was instructed to keep to the main trail, it was probably assumed that Benteen had finished his scout. Martin was also told to come back if he had time and it was safe, which suggests that Cooke/Custer may have thought that Benteen was not far back at all.
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He knew the ammo was miles away.
Okay
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He knew that Reno was in deep do do.
Debatable, seeing as how Martin left him with the impression that Reno was enjoying a raging success.
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He knew that their battalion was all over the shop.
Is this Reno's? In what sense was he "all over the shop"?
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He knew that Custer hadn't a clue.
Now you're indulging in Wiggery.
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He knew the village was enormous.
Okay.
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He knew [if DCs theory is correct]that the chain of command was through the Custer family.
Well, if correct, it wouldn't matter much at the time the note was written since Custer was still in charge and unscratched.
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Now I think that adds up to a delicate situation to put it mildly.
I think you'd have to put it mildly, since there are perhaps no more than two statements here which can withstand close scrutiny. Delicate? Sure: most all battles are delicate situations. But you said Cooke knew the situation was "desperate," which puts it a bit more strongly than anything we know, that they knew at the time, can warrant. And that's putting it mildly.
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"Anonymous Poster" tag with a random number
How fortunate you were to draw such a romantic name.
Well I never thought of it as being romantic, now that you mention it, but who knows, things can have all manner of appeal. Just look look at how one word in your name apparently helped Wiggs conjure up such a wild image of that proud chest of yours. Well, I don't know that --- who knows what Wiggs thinks --- but I laughed. For some of the things said on this board that's all you can do.
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Seriously though,the user name is kinda important,it helps one conjur up a picture of the person you are debating with."Anonymous" does nothing for me.On the other "Dark Cloud" sounds ominious and you gotta do your research and get your spelling correct.
Well that's kind of the point, though. It wasn't meant to do anything for you. Forcing people to register, etc. is just a nuisance, and an unnecessary one at that. It's not like this is airport security where we have to show everybody our ID. It's a public forum, and I think it would be a better forum if people could just pop in and say something without going through hassles. I think there'd be more new people asking questions if there weren't such walls, and let's face it, it's usually when someone asks something, or says something wrong, that a board like this has its most activity.
I'm really not interested in inventing a screen name to give people a picture, since it's words that matter, not titles. We're all essentially anonymous anyway, no matter what we may call ourselves, and the only real knowledge we can get of each other is based on what we actually say to each other. If I weren't Anonymous, I'd be R. Larsen, which is probably less thrilling anyways.
R. Larsen
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alfuso
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 12:43:12 PM
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But why go *away* from support?
Alfuso
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
If the summer campers were to get it right, they would never have been attacked.
If CH, as we are told, inspired guys with his bravery runs, would the reverse be true? If he'd been killed right off?
My theory, which is not really mine but is an old one, is that Custer's failure is not a systematic one because, if true, it's an example of his operating outside the system with family and not rank. If his brother swooped up a wounded Custer and essentially demanded that they get to some safety so his wounds could be attended to, the spray of bodies from MTC east and north makes sense, as does the whole movement. I cannot fathom it otherwise.
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Prepare to Panic |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2004 : 11:35:36 AM
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The very point, Alfuso, and I have no answer, except that the very irrationality of where Custer ended up suggests that it was a quick decision to get away from an immediate issue.
The feint and all that, aside from being very un-Custer who had an opening into the village lightly defended if at all, doesn't really make any sense unless Custer really thought it wise to get cavalry into a defensive battle without cover where they ended. I don't for a second believe that, or that Custer thought it wise to partially engage, or that he could somehow fool a large village into doing something of value to him. I'm quite sure speed, audacity, shock of the charge were his methods, and because he exhibits none of the three I don't think he was in charge. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2004 : 8:59:35 PM
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Jeese Louweese! "The feint and all that aside from being very un-Custer who had an opening into the village lightly defended."
As you are obviously speculating about what is or what is not "Custer", allow me to do the same. Who needs facts? The "Feint" is an approved military tactic used throughout the history of mankind! Its value lies in its inherent capability to confuse and disorient the enemy. In this particular battle, it may have saved the lives of Reno and his men who were hard pressed by the pursuing Indians. Very un-Custer?, this tactic is vintage Custer. It is a tactic used by Commanders who possess confidence and grit; it is Custer.
Once again, I ask, why capture an empty village? Remember,facing the village in an easternly direction, warriors have moved to the left(north) to meet Reno. Non-combatants to the right (south) to escape. For what other reason would Custer continue north? To attack the lightly defended Ford "B" would have accomplished one of two objectives; Turn left and attack the rear of the warriors which would allow their families to escape or, turn right to pursue the Indian families and have the warriors in your rear flank. Neither option is desirable. The capture of the non-combatants is a sound military tactic and, would have instantly defused the furor of the warriors. |
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Calhoun Hill
