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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
 Posted - June 17 2004 : 05:53:47 AM
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Dark, just concerning things as fact. I saw the 45 (right number?) tombstones where the soldiers fell, and the line of tombstones(is right this word?) that follow almost a trail. Now, I don't dare of course to go into details, it's impossible, but, there are 45 (?) men on the hill, and this is a fact. The Circle of horses, the number of men, this means, (also the indians confirmed and this time the accounts are almost not contrasting)they choose as a last option to stand there and that extremely decision could mean only that they was at the end. Also indians confirm they was the last group to die. And that the group was of few men. This mean that Custer or the first officer if Custer was wounded or dead, when ordered the stand had lost almost all his men.
We could'n apply the same criteria to 3 people in different situations. We discussed along about. My idea is this, and I let out all my personal sympathy for one or other officer: Reno retreat, was not to complain. Could be condemned having the full view around the facts was happening, but he had not. It was the way in which this retreat was made that may be condemned - and I add, if he would'nt have had the support of Benteen, the 25 june he maybe should have gone to the "green pastures" much sooner than he did. Custer (when I say his name I mean always his companies), and this is reported from indians too, try a resistence, and fight while he retreated and, last, he did'nt gave his shoulder to the enemy. That's a big difference and different was the situations and the circumstances. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2004 : 09:01:56 AM
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But Lorenzo.....
First, bear in mind there is no first hand Indian testimony. Zero. We have alleged memories of participants run through White Man Translation Service which might be good, might not, and this after the passage of time and the melding of stories. What are the chances that one man knows Arikira, the various Sioux dialects, Crow, Cheyenne, Arapahoe, sign language and English fluently and could accurately compare accounts? About zero. And who would know if he was lying or not?
Yet we have these translations into English with verbals in things like conditional tenses, past pluperfects and they do not exist in the original tongue. There is no way to rely on this as 'fact,'since precise time and chronology is so easily implied but not meant or altered.
Indians participating at Calhoun Hill might not have Clue One what's going on elsewhere. Safe bet, in fact. All this stuff is less than Holy Writ.
It's fun to hypothesize, but it's far more interesting to watch how the old Custerphile, Custerphobe teams have morphed to utilize PC themes and to utilize new theories and evidence for their utterly transparent goals. At bottom, the Custerphiles want to sob over the Hero, a role they often envision for themselves in life("...he merely seeks Truth!"), the phobes want to regret the burdens of Reno and Benteen unfairly placed upon them for symbolic reasons of their own, etc., etc.
For example, Lorenzo, what attracts you to that quote of Custer's in your signature? It's a pretty boilerplate oath that soldiers take, isn't it? When they sign up, to die if needed? Is it different from that of the numerous Italian hero quotes? I doubt it. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2004 : 2:33:04 PM
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I'm still happy with my pyramid example to counter the 'high ground' enthusiasts.
I'm sure you've heard of a little hill called the Little Round Top and the part it played in American History.
LSH was nothing more than a forlorn hope.Custer was swamped and it didn't matter what the floor of the slaughter house looked like.No need to elaberate on Benteen's Brother's description.It says it all.
Last Stand Hill? Calhoun Hill? In any case, is the quote saying the ridge is 1000 yards away from where you are? Or 1000 yards long (and) due east? I wish I had faith in your quotes.
Sorry the quote was in reference to Indian fire on Reno's position.Also a diagram in the book shows fire being directed at Reno's position from 500 yards.
Regards |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2004 : 3:00:34 PM
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Yes, LBT proves my point. Stonewalls, forest, plenty of cover. LSH? Nada. If the Round Tops were as barren as that Montana hill and devoid of cover, let them come and blow them off from below, cause they'll lose all Alabama up there in plain sight to no end. Almost did anyway.
And again, rather blatently, a misapplied and incomplete quote. If anything, they'd be shooting at the stock at that distance, bunched together, and there were plenty closer. Only one guy on Sharpshooter Ridge gave them pause, and he was pushed off or killed. Your fascination with long range shooting (and with fake quotes)by people who had neither the time, munitions, weapons, or interest in becoming notably good at it is really odd.
Of course, it provides 'evidence' for found shell casings of unknown origin, or even virtual shell casings that should be there but must have been pillaged. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2004 : 7:11:23 PM
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For example, Lorenzo, what attracts you to that quote of Custer's in your signature? It's a pretty boilerplate oath that soldiers take, isn't it? When they sign up, to die if needed? Is it different from that of the numerous Italian hero quotes? I doubt it.
What attracts me? First, there is all the General behavior. Second, there is what I feel too as a duty. You know, I am one of the few resisting in such a romantic (that it's not = saccharine) values. It's a way to be. You know, you persist to look at the faults of Custer almost if he was a devil, but there was much more in him and a great amount of good quality. You call him damned Custer. That's what best Benteen the hero had to tell in front of the death of him: "God damn him,here he will rest, he will fight anymore".
You said that was private letters what he wrote Benteen, but that's not true. He goes on, on his dirty work with journalists, newspapers etc. I answer you, God damn Benteen and his hate.
What I like in that quote? that it resume the General I repeat, the spirit of America and myself: even what I think it is the right feeling for the fatherland. Now please don't call me out of fashion: there was a sport champion in USA that choose to fight against terrorism and lose his life...
PS: YOu continue to underestimate my intelligence: I understood that was a joke and the sense of it but for me it was too heavy and useless for the forum of LBH.
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If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2004 : 7:21:07 PM
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First, bear in mind there is no first hand Indian testimony. Zero.
Well Dark, as a fact, if you don't want the indians (but this is unright: I have for example a video of an indian that is related with sitting bull that, talking english, support my meanings - he tell what his father told him )we have what Weir saw from his point. Round. Cloud of dust. And there,later was found the bodies. These are white man good english talking. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2004 : 8:01:34 PM
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Lorenzo, that's not first hand anything, much less testimony. There IS no first hand testimony.
That's a guy who you believe is who he says he is telling a story to someone which may be an accurate reconstruction of what he was told but we don't know if what he was told is true. Or if any of it is true. Neither does the guy on camera. It's a story.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2004 : 8:27:25 PM
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| And Weir? |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 17 2004 : 9:11:26 PM
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What about Weir? A drunk who may have been romancing Custer's wife and was the cause of Custer's quick, self serving return to base that provoked additional charges at his courtmartial. (Utley)
And let's have examples of Benteen's journalism and 'dirty work' about Custer after the battle. Also, provide an example of where I compare Custer to the devil or anything like it.
And I don't underestimate your intelligence, Lorenzo. You overestimate your English. At least you no longer have pretence of objectivity with that silliness. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 18 2004 : 05:32:46 AM
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Well Dark. My english is bad, but you underestimate how bad it is. You might know that my problem is in writing, not in understanding. There's a difference. Second, I confirm that your joke was not usefull to the discussion and was a kind of personal faida with Joseph. I'm still of the idea that such a joke was'nt funny.
I will show you in the next post the dirty work of Benteen. Don't worry, I have material, otherwise I don't dare to tell it.
Custer a devil? You don't compare him to a devil, but you seem to looking at him like if he was the devil in person, because you attributed to Custer all the most worse thing:
you call him damning Custer, you say that he was a killer ( I prevent your answer "tell me where I would have said that he was a killer" telling you that you believe that he make die people without pity and order to shot them without pity), that he had no high sense of duty, somewhere an incompetent, that he was bad with his soldiers, that he was a gambler (That he played cards, that's true), that he betrayed his wife, that nobody was in anxiety for his death etc.(I don't want to be pert and boring so I don't make a list of quotes from your past messages) just the half of what you said about him it's enough to build a stinky demon!
Weir. I like Utley, but that is a mere conjecture. Letters from both, Custer and Libbie, of the period explain better what happened. In the end, at your opinion, we had not to believe Weir because he was alcoholic? Then we have also to refuse Benteen and Reno narratives and accusations because they was alcoholics. However, I don't remember the name but some officers with Weir support his report of the dust clouds etc. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 18 2004 : 07:57:15 AM
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Lorenzo,
What you meant to say is your English is bad BUT that I OVERestimate - better,overstate - how bad it is, the exact opposite of what you wrote. You do this a lot.
Much of your irritation is that I'll counter accusations against Benteen and Reno with facts about Custer wherein he is as guilty or more of the same accusation. But Custerphiles resent the comparison, feeling Custer should be exempt. It is not just my opinion that Custer deserted his troops, went AWOL several times, had other deserters shot without trial by execution; it's in the record. Letters from Custer and Mrs. Custer explain what? His presence in Michigan for Christmas, her's at the fort? His inclination to talk about other women in detail? It's not just Benteen who thought Custer had an affair with a Cheyenne girl; so did her family and other Cheyennes. Conspiracy between Benteen and Indians to besmirch Custer? Come on.
Unfortunately, Lorenzo, you need to provide the quotes to prove your issues, whatever they actually are. You run off about Lenin and Benteen, and then say it doesn't matter when you lose the point. You say I do, then you say I do not, compare Custer to devil. He did make people die without pity - he was a soldier. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 18 2004 : 10:12:36 AM
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Yes, LBT proves my point.
It does no such thing.
You rubbished the idea of taking the high ground as a general military principal.Once again we find you changing your stance on what you had posted as gospel----This is one of those beloved military phrases - "get the high ground" - that appeals to those who communicate by bumper sticker, and who would replicate anything once allegedly said by a famous military man.
From the Battlefields of The Civil WarAs one of Hood's regiments spotted the importance of Little Round top.Big Round Top was too wooded to allow artillery to reach it's summit.The smaller hill was different.Guns placed there could fire down on the entire Yankee line as far North as Cemetery Hill
If anything, they'd be shooting at the stock at that distance, bunched together
But of course.If you can't shoot the trooper shoot his horse.
Your fascination with long range shooting (and with fake quotes)by people who had neither the time, munitions, weapons, or interest in becoming notably good at it is really odd.
How good do you have to be to hit a target of 400 mules and horses and 300 troopers [approx].And the Indians proved to be fairly competent inflicting at least 60 casualties on Reno's command.
and with fake quotes
Dark Cloud could I just draw your attention to the above and also remind you that you accused me of posting material which was untrue.
Why in heavin's would I do that?What's the point?We have grand little civilized discussion going here.If I'm proved to be wrong ,fine so what .I would imagine all of our friends here try to be as truthful and as historically correct as possible.
Regards
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 18 2004 : 12:10:34 PM
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By paragraph....
1.Again, out of context: "All things being equal, and they rarely are, high ground sometimes, maybe often, has advantages. But to blindly obey it is pretty dumb." Like when there is no cover, as at LBH, and you're just an easy target. Not so at LRT.
2. Not great shooting, apparently, given how relatively few animals were killed.
3. Why, not very good at all, Wild! And, see above, they weren't! Most of the casualties of Reno were down below, the others in counterattacks for water, and a few to that sharpshooter who went away.
4. One word: Sedgewick. And, we were talking about LSH and you offer a quote that refers to a different battle - Reno's - all together as if it were evidence. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 18 2004 : 5:22:45 PM
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Lorenzo, Many men have spent their lives investigating this battle. Countless interviews by both civilian and military authorities have produce innumerable transcripts of Indian statments regarding this incident. Information that has been dismissed or corroberated by the involved parties who were there. All of the interpreters were incompetent. Some of them were quite capable in transposing Indian thoughts, words, and idioms into English. As a result, hundreds of books, manuscripts, newspapers, and periodicals have been published, each producing various perspective of what occurred. Through reasoning and scientific study, we can discern a great deal of what actually happened. No white man lived to observe the final moments of Custer's command, many Indians did! To dismiss these findings "in toto" because you assume that a revelation of truth is impossible is not an answer, its a cop out.
To the many men and women who dedicated their lives to this awesome responsibility I say thanks. As a result, a great many readers have learned much about this battle. |
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benteens brother
Corporal
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - June 18 2004 : 9:56:30 PM
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I haven't seen the ground so I can't comment on whether LSH is a good defensive position or not. The fact is that he was caught out in the open by an overwhelming force of Indians and had no time to organise an adequate defence. The mere fact that the command was strung out for quarter of a mile along a ridge line suggests that the enemy intentions were never correctly interpreted. The cavalry companies were comitted piecemeal and destroyed the same way. A skirmish line of 40 men is not going to hold off 1000 angry hostiles for very long.
Yes it's true that not every hilltop is going to prove adequate for a defence but Custer didn't get to make that choice so the argument in this case is silly. The reason for taking the high ground is so you can control the key terrain around the position and watch enemy movements. The enemy also has to attack uphill which for obvious reasons is a lot harder than attacking on flat ground or downhill. Custer never got a chance to position his force properly to beat off the attack he faced.
Dark Cloud , you've used the battle on LSH to try and prove your pyramid theory. I'll throw you the Battle of Killikrankie in 1689 to disprove it. A good example of how high ground is an advantage in both defence and attack. Cheers. |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 08:42:34 AM
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Much of your irritation
I just don't agree your way to look at Custer, because I think it is not only unright, but prevented from personal hate. You can now state that is'nt true, but your past post, and my previous list it's a proof. Custer was'nt perfect, but this proof nothing. Letters between Custer and Libbie shows clearly that you are wrong in the matter of Weir. And the reasons of Custer to come back etc. You don't care about the defence at court martial. That was a good one.
It's not just Benteen who thought Custer had an affair with a Cheyenne girl Oh yes, who other? The butcher? the barber? or the soldiers that call any mistake on Custer for they was dying with envy because Custer reached highest positions in the army before them?
That's the point: you're ready to believe to this tittle-tattle, frustrated housewife's gossip, when it's about Custer, but you do the exactly contrary when it's about the others.
Conspiracy between Benteen and Indians to besmirch Custer?
Who never said this? I said that Benteen did attempt against Custer's reputation and to get his task he used the most despicable means. Come on!
You run off about Lenin and Benteen, and then say it doesn't matter when you lose the point. You say I do, then you say I do not, compare Custer to devil. Here you are really uncorrect towards me. The meaning I had when I make the comparison, was not a political one. Was just what I stated. I can make another comparison: I would never believe to what would say Robespierre about the king. Benteen was too much full of hate to be believable. My first statement was this you persist to look at the faults of Custer almost if he was a devil and the other one you seem to looking at him like if he was the devil in person, because you attributed to Custer all the most worse thing
Words are clear: "you seem", or "almost if he was", have not the same sense of your: "you compare at the devil". I never said that you compare him to the devil, but that you treat him like a devil. I lose no points, then, it's you that have distorted my meanings to get a point, that in truth you get not. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 1:17:19 PM
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Timely, Wiggs. It takes great courage and insight to say stuff like that. Glad someone finally did it. You can be proud.
Lorenzo, the Cheyenne stories about Custer's connections with their southern branch, some of whom claimed to be at LBH, are numerous. I'm not where I can get to the books, but I know SOTMS ends with it as does Kuhlman and many others discuss it. That's who and where. You have yet to show 'despicable means' by which Benteen hurt Custer's rep or attempted to. I never treated Custer like the devil. In fact, I've consistently said that it only makes sense to me he was hurt rather early, because everything from MTC north makes no sense with Custer in other actions.
Again, you don't write what you apparently think you're saying and it is increasingly tiresome.
Benteen's Brother: "Yes it's true that not every hilltop is going to prove adequate for a defence but Custer didn't get to make that choice so the argument in this case is silly. The reason for taking the high ground is so you can control the key terrain around the position and watch enemy movements. The enemy also has to attack uphill which for obvious reasons is a lot harder than attacking on flat ground or downhill."
It's not silly only because we keep getting told this is Custer on the offensive, heading north and east. If these were command decisions of a healthy Custer, it's bizarre. In reality, of course, it's Custerphile dedication trying to prove their guy was ever so military and in charge to the last and, by implication at least, betrayed.
The fact is, the high ground on which Custer's guys ended up, from Calhoun to LSH, does not allow you to see much movement because of the deep ravines that Custer had to have seen on his way there. It isn't necessary to attack uphill, only shoot uphill because the defenders had no, zero, cover, and you do. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 7:58:51 PM
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Benteen's Brother, the military initiative for taking the "High Ground" is as you sayis to,"Control the key terrain around the position." The hill was nothing more than a slight knoll at the northern terminus of Custer Ridge. Looking westward, the knoll gradually slopes downward toward the basin. Facing north, east, and south you see that the diffrence in terrain is slight. I do not believe that a commander would seek such a "Hill", his troops being totally exposed in three directions.
Fox's theory is that Custer positioned "L" troop at Calhoun hill in skirmish order. He placed the Gray horse company in skirmish on Cemetery ridge. The remaing troops were placed in reserve. "I" and "C" to the rear of Calhoun Hill and, "F" in the flats near Deep Ravine. Custer believed himself to be on the offensive. The warriors utilization of encroachment by stealth (the grass grew heavy and thick that year) camouflaged their actual numbers. When they finally attacked, in mass, the troopers were quickly wiped out. |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 08:50:40 AM
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Lorenzo, the Cheyenne stories about Custer's connections with their southern branch, some of whom claimed to be at LBH, are numerous. I'm not where I can get to the books, but I know SOTMS ends with it as does Kuhlman and many others discuss it. That's who and where. You have yet to show 'despicable means' by which Benteen hurt Custer's rep or attempted to. I never treated Custer like the devil. In fact, I've consistently said that it only makes sense to me he was hurt rather early, because everything from MTC north makes no sense with Custer in other actions.
Oh well, so i'm "increasingly tiresome". I never ment to be.My apologizes if I am. Of course, if my presence is tiresome in this forum I will go away. Let's just to say, now, that the platform you said once I exchange with friends abroad, are not platform, but historical arguments and politic talking. People never claimed to have problems understanding my thoughts: our talking have specifical task and we need to really understand each other as, later, the result will be of public domain. I don't know, but maybe it's your english that is not so good as you believe.
So well: Cheyenne witness are not believable when they talk of the last stand of Custer and his bravery, but they are believable when they told Custer betrayed his wife. Oh what a surprise!
The only good thing you said about Custer is what you quoted. Well it is'nt so much I think...
You told to me that I can't always hide behind bad english writing. I don't. And never do this. I really always thought what I written, but sometimes, for my english, I did'nt arrive to tell [/b]all[/b] what I mean because I'm not able to do it. Evidence that I don't hide myself, is that I expose my person here, talking sincerly with a language with which I have some difficult; I do it for passion, for desire to know and learn. And because LBH was always with me from my earliest memories.
I can be wrong. I can be crazy, as you would call Custer, because I always "charge". I can be naive. I can be boring, tiresome. But don't touch my integrity. I never used and I will never use low tricks to protect myself or to reach a task. Your suspects, so, that I hide myself behind bad english, please, keep them for yourself.
Finally: if I'm really increasingly tiresome, I repeat, please let me know it and I stop writing. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 9:47:37 PM
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"You have to show dispicable means by which Beenteen hurt Custer's rep."
During the Reno Inquiry, Benteen resorted to his off-trail scout as, "Mere valley hunting ad infinitum."
He branded his orders from Custer as "senseless." He even bragged that he was in "violation of orders" that would have taken him to, "Ft. Benton," had he not chosen to disobey his commander. These allegations, if true, would certainly paint the General in a 'dispicable' light. However, we now know that Benteen lied. How do we know this? Benteen, in his official report and in a series of letters to his wife, admitted as much.
Benteen Report, July 4, 1876:
"The directions I received from Gen. Custer was to move with my command to the left, to send well-mounted officers with about 6 men, who would ride rapidly to a line of bluffs about five miles to our front with instructions to report to me, if anything of Indians could be seen from that point. I was to follow the movements of this detachment as rapidly as possible. Lt. Gibson was the officer I selected."
In a subsequent version given in August of 1876, by Benteen, to reporters he included: "HE WAS TO SEND BACK WORD TO CUSTER AT ONCE."
These lucid statements clearly show that Custer sent Benteen on an important mission: to prevent a possible escape of Indians up the Big Horn River. That Benteen's absence was intended to be a short one was obvious as the anticipated information was critical for any success. Benteen was ordered to send word by a courier if anything was found or not found.
Lt. Gibson, in a personal letter of July 4, 1876 destroyed Benteen's ravings very dramatically.
"Benteen's battalion was sent to the left about five miles to see if the Indians were trying to escape up the valley of the Little Big Horn, after which we were to HURRY and rejoin the command as soon as possible."
This statement, of course, is a complete corroboration of Benteen's official report. It also clarifies an important part of the "scout" that Benteen buried under a deluge of verbal insults and diaparaging innuendos; the valley was only five miles away. More importantly, he was asked to look for a specific valley, the Little Big Horn, and not valleys "ad infinitum."
Once this critical point is realized we can surmise why he lied at the Inquiry. A recalcitrant personality who despised Custer, Benteen's failure to report to his commander with much needed information was indiscretion at best. When the rumor of public out cry began to swell, Benteen and others decided to place the blame for loss upon a dead scapegoat;Custer. Lastly, these flagrant lies did much to destroy General Custer's reputation and were, dispicable, at the least. To some men personal reputation is more valuable then gold. I believe Custer was such a man. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 12:04:29 AM
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First, if you pillage and paraphrase Gray, credit him and don't try and pass it off as your own.
Second, where do you find this: "Benteen was ordered to send word by a courier if anything was found or not found."
Five miles away from what? They knew where the valley of the Little Big Horn was; they could see it from the Crow's Nest. If Gibson in a private letter agrees with Benteen's report, what is your point?
Benteen's position is that there were other cross gulleys and valleys between the last rise Gibson hit and the Little Bighorn that they didn't need to keep searching, since the southern valley of the LBH was visible and devoid of villages. Indians en masse escaping up a visible valley would, in any case, leave a huge dust cloud, so those orders make small sense. Did Gibson hear the orders or did he just repeat assumptions?
How is any of this evidence of Benteen writing public material demeaning to Custer after his death?
And, if you think Benteen did that and its despicable, what do you call killing men for a crime you yourself committed? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 07:00:07 AM
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The fact is, the high ground on which Custer's guys ended up, from Calhoun to LSH, does not allow you to see much movement because of the deep ravines that Custer had to have seen on his way there. It isn't necessary to attack uphill, only shoot uphill because the defenders had no, zero, cover, and you do.
Dark Cloud
On the contrary the battle was one of movement.The 7th were strung out over at least 1/2 mile when hit by overwhelming numbers from all directions.What options had Custer?Vanish into a ravine or try to rally the command on the most prominent feature.
These ravines which you seem to favour were not trenches but far more like long depressions easely outflanked and enfiladed.To even suggest that Custer could have organised his scattered command and placed them in supporting ravines is the hight of nonsense.Further, to suggest that the Indians,all 1500 of them looking for a piece of the action would have halted their attack in favour of a fire fight using the ravines is to totally misjudge the situation.
Perhaps a little comparison study of such battles as Monte Cassino and Dien Bien Phu would convince you of the advantage high ground has in just about all cases.
Joe
Fox's theory is that Custer positioned "L" troop at Calhoun hill in skirmish order. He placed the Gray horse company in skirmish on Cemetery ridge. The remaing troops were placed in reserve. "I" and "C" to the rear of Calhoun Hill and, "F" in the flats near Deep Ravine
I can never understand this theory that Custer placed troops or had sufficent time, or control over his command to organise anything like a creditable defense.Evidence on the ground would suggest his lead troops did nothing more than fall back on the centre which was probably in the vicinity of LSH.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 08:21:08 AM
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What could he do? Retreat to defensible ground or ground suitable to sustain an attack. I. E. south to Reno Hill, which Benteen and Reno noted was a good place to fight from.
The Indians fought from cover and killed the soldiers without cover despite the latter having the crucial 'high ground.' All else being equal, which it rarely is, high ground is better. High ground without cover fighting low ground with cover in stationary combat is, well, the LBH.
I don't know how you can say this was a battle of movement; the 7th rushed to places to dismount and fight, allow their horses to be killed or stolen and were slaughted stretched out. About the only time this portion of the 7th fought from their horses was running from MTC or, maybe, if suddenly these soldiers were capable of firing carbines from horseback at some point, which would be unlikely.
Here's the comparison. Suppose Custer and Reno's roles were reversed. Custer charged, has a "Holy sh..." moment and pulls off into the timber as he had done in the past at the Yellowstone. Reno waves from the crest and vanishes into history. With the same evidence, the same archaeology, there is no chance in hell that people would be predicating Reno issuing crisp, Ft. Benning commands or 'staying on the offensive' and heroically sacrificing his men for Custer, which the more teary eyed actually say with a straight face about Custer now. Instead, we'd get the heroic Custer, regardless of what he did, suffering for the failure of Reno to charge the camp as ordered, and look where the doofus ended up, and Benteen struggling to get the packs to him below. If only someone else had done something different, Custer's 'plan' would have worked. It's always something. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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wILD I
Brigadier General
Ireland
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 09:46:09 AM
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What could he do? Retreat to defensible ground or ground suitable to sustain an attack. I. E. south to Reno Hill, which Benteen and Reno noted was a good place to fight from.
The command is strung out when attacked by hundreds of Indians.The Indians are actually in among them.So how do you organise a retreat which does not become a panic?
Look what happened to Reno under better circumstances.
Reno hill is 3 miles away and the command are on tired horses while the Indians are on fresh mounts.
The last thing Custer was looking for was a defensive position.
This battle was not a fire fight in the accepted term,it was a brawl ,probably with knives and axes doing as much damage as any firearms.
The Indians fought from cover and killed the soldiers without cover
What you are trying to do is paint a picture of a fire fight with the troops on an exposed hillside being picked off by well disciplined hidden Indians.Rubbish.This was real personel,man to man.How long did it take?As long as it took a hungry man to eat his dinner.
I don't know how you can say this was a battle of movement;
Movement as in a brief chase.A lion in persuit of it quarry.Stopping it,draging it down and then killing it. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 12:04:17 PM
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If the situation is as you described, you're contending Custer is NOT looking for a defensive position if they're in man to man combat being hit from all sides?
I don't know if that's true or possible till the end. It doesn't require disciplined Indian fire from cover, just fire from cover at easy targets. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Calhoun Hill
