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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - February 27 2005 : 4:21:51 PM
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http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/4605/01601301.jpg
The background data reads, "Portrait of Group of Men, Including "Lonesome Charlie" Reynolds, Scout Who Died at Battle of Little Big Horn, All in Partial Native Dress and with Two Non-Native Men, One Is Capt. Banks ?, Indian Agent n.d.".
Not sure, but I think if Lonesome Charlie is in this photo, he is the left, standing white man. I would have to presume that Capt. Banks would be sitting as he is senior and Charlie was undoubtedly a translator.
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - February 27 2005 : 5:33:41 PM
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Page 242 of the Barnard book Ten years with Custer. If it isn't miscaptioned, it's almost exact.
Also, that last photo I've seen as referencing Crook'1876 Mud March horror. I think it's usually in groups shown with that one of the tepee with the Keogh guidon. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - February 28 2005 : 09:55:13 AM
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Billy
I don't believe that the Berdan design was ever produced in any quantity. But there may have been a few short runs. Obviously the US army must have trialled it, before deciding in favour of the revised Allin conversion.
However Berdan did have some overseas success. The 1867 Spanish Berdan seems to include a number of the design features shown in your diagram.
See
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Spain/SpBerdan.htm
Berdan's biggest customer was the Russian army, but his designs were veering away from the lifting block concept by that time (1870). |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
Posted - February 28 2005 : 11:07:11 AM
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Billy,
Just a few further links (of very marginal interest) to the Berdan rifle. Apparently Berdan sued the US government for patent infringement, alleging that the Allin converted Springfields copied his patented extractor-ejector mechanism. The case must have gone on for some time, but eventually his widow won the case, receiving $95,004.36 in compensation. Somewhat ironically, the case was won 3 years after the Springfield had been replaced by the Krag-Jorgensen.
See
http://www.militaryrifles.com/US/65-68Allin.htm
and for legal discussion on the case
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=156&invol=552
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 01 2005 : 07:14:49 AM
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Dave, thanks for the information! Just like a government ehh? Why buy it if you can copy it?
Billy |
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movingrobewoman
Lt. Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 04 2005 : 01:30:56 AM
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Billy--
Allow me to restate my deep gratitude to your research! I did so enjoy the Wa-shi-ta portrayal ... yikes! Thanks to you, I've nabbed Custer's testimony before the Congressional Joint Select Committee in 1866. Do you have any quotes from his "embarrassment" before the Belknap gang?
In return, I can only direct y'all to the University of Arkansas, Little Rock Sequoia Project (see earlier post for site). Its annual seminar, a weekend-long discussion of all questions facing modern Native Americana as well as the relation of our history, should be held shortly ... though at this time, the project deals with mostly Cherokee (granted we're in the path of the Trail of Tears) issues, the director has been given archives from many university collections. Maybe we can start a Custer-related forum and annoy the heck out of them!
Once again, Billy, I offer my sincere thanks.
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 04 2005 : 7:28:52 PM
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Hey guys, I am pressed for time so I will be brief. The other night, I copied the casualty reports from the 7th Cav. I have already scanned the original copies but simply haven't had time to get them posted on-line. I felt that most of us would be seeing the unadulterated casualty list for the first time so I consider it, if not important, unique. I have also, although not yet scanned, the roster of troops who were on detached service, etc. I will try to get all on-line this weekend before the UNC/Evil Empire, aka, Duke game.
Now, to take a sedative as it is the munchkin's 10th birthday and I have to contend with 16 screaming 9 & 10 year old girls at the house tonight.
Where, oh where, did I hide that Jack Daniels bottle???
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 11:56:28 AM
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God, what a night. Fourteen screaming kids, two screaming companies wanting to have something broken for two weeks fixed immediately, and then a bloody escalation at 0145. Needless to say, on the last call I adopted Paul's evil personae. It did get results as I managed another two hours of sleep!
Anyway, I have the casualty lists up. They look like hell when first downloaded but when resized to full size, they look decent. One of these days I will figure out how to use Paintshop and remove all the clutter from those images. If anyone cares to try, email me and I will send them the TIF version of the images to play with. As a matter of fact, if anyone wants the TIF images, email me and I will send them.
The URL to reach my index page is:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~familyinformation/#custer
I will get the rest up, hopefully this weekend, but sometime for sure. Time to head over to Ft. Leavenworth for 4-5 hours.
Be good all,
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 1:02:53 PM
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Well, first, thank you for this.
Markland, not being picky and with full regard for the horrible day you had yesterday (also, if you do computer work can I get your private cell phone so I can call you at night? But only if you have a phone plan where you have to pay as well. My mouse pad is worn...)
...this is a list of NCO and soldier dead, not casualties, right? It includes no officers. Does it include the missing as well, even though it says kia? Also, whose handwriting? Was this list made on field or by tabulating who didn't show up first official roll call after battle from reports?
Also, regarding this http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/4605/01601506.jpg, doesn't that fly in the face of Michno's contentions at the beginning of Lakota Noon? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
Edited by - Dark Cloud on March 05 2005 1:07:57 PM |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 8:26:16 PM
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quote:
...this is a list of NCO and soldier dead, not casualties, right? It includes no officers
Good catch regarding the officers. That piece of paper was so faded that I had to darken the print selection to max to see anything on it. I will post that later. As far as missing, I am assuming (and we know what happens when we ass-u-me) that everyone known to be in those companies who did not answer roll call after the relief is listed as dead. I spotted Nathan Short's name in there and there seems to be some evidence that Nathan got away only to die on the Yellowstone.
Wounded seem to be listed on the other sheets I have, detailing the disposition of men not with their companies who are not known (or presumed) dead. Maybe I will scan those tonight, but after another three hours at work, I feel more like popping a few caps (bottle-caps, not cartridges!!!).
Just out of curiousity, how many of you have ever seen this before or anything which is considered a primary source? I realize that opportunities to view this type of material depends largely upon where you are but I want to see if this posting of source material is helpful to the readers.
Bob, any of this source material I am posting, you are welcome to have for the Friends of the LBH group. Once I give it and it is posted at your site, I will take my images down.
Be good,
Billy |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 8:52:35 PM
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Guys, this should be interesting for history buffs. Below is an email I sent to several of my genealogy groups and just sort of realized that you all might be interested too.
The NY Public Library is putting on-line today (3/4/05) "hundreds of thousands of its images...allowing free personal downloads of materials including maps, Civil War photos, and illuminated medieval manuscripts."
"The NYPL Digital Gallery will have 275,000 images available beginning today, and the collection will grow to 500,000 images over the next several months, library officials announced Wednesday."
"The images can be downloaded free for personal use. Use of the images for publication or in film, television or the Internet can be arranged through the library's Permissions Department."
Associated Press 3/3/05
The URL for the above collection is:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/
Another link I discovered to other NYPL on-line content is:
http://www.nypl.org/digital/" target="_blank"> br / http://www.nypl.org/digital/
Happy Hunting,
Billy
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 11:28:41 AM
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I found this yesterday in the hour and a half I had at CARL. Hopefully,it will be helpful.
Billy
Ft. Leavenworth Daily Standard
Vol. X No. 2,825
April 18, 1882
Captain French
Some time last September the writer, while in conversation with the late Capt. Thos. H. French of the 7th cavalry, asked him if there ever had been a really correct report published regarding the Custer massacre, in detail. “No,” he said. “There are many inaccuracies. If you will listen I will tell you how it was. No, better yet, I will write what I know of it for you if you will send it to the Chicago Times.” He seated himself at a desk in the Continental hotel and wrote the following:
SKETCH OF THE BATTLE
On the morning of the 25th of June, 1876, after riding hard all night, Gen. Custer came up to me and touched me on the side, saying: “Get up quick; we’ll make a ten strike this day. Thousands of ponies on the hills.” I answered: “All right.” Before the attack was made he distributed the command into three battalions. Bentien [sic] commanded the first one; Reno the second. I had the front of the last mentioned one.
It was either Lieut. Wallace or Varnum, I don’t recollect which one, said to me, “There they are; you attack and we will follow.”
These three companies opened the fight. After about half an hour Major Reno fell - not back - but in an opposite direction. Presently the three other companies, Weir’s, Godfrey’s and Bentien’s [sic] came up. Reno tried to go ahead, but it was not possible, and to have any one living. I spoke to Reno, asking what in God damnation has become of the troops. He simply replied, “I don’t know.”
We stayed in a hollow between the bluffs during that day – or rather the remainder of it – and on the following day. Then Gen. Terry, that splendid soldier, came up, and I learned that all of the five companies had been killed.
I did not believe it at first. There had been already enough lost.
But their bodies were there.
The only living object was old “Commanche,” Keogh’s horse. The old beast is now one of the sacred individuals of the regiment. Rain-in-the-Face did not cut out Tom Custer’s heart.
An Indian don’t [sic] need to cut into a man’s bowels to get at his heart.
That Rain-in-the-Face was a rascally scamp is known. I was one of a party who took him from among his own men, and made him a prisoner. Yates, Tom Custer and Harrington were the others. They are now dead. But Harrington’s body was not found.
Gen. Custer, when I last saw him, was seated on two dead men, and was leaning backward against a dead horse. He was shot in the head and in the breast. He was not at all mutilated.
In spite of everything which has been said of Major Reno, I now say this, “that he was a brave man.”
He had no more chance in that fight than a flea in a tar barrel would have.
Mark Kellogg, correspondent of the N.Y. Herald, was killed, but strangely enough he was not at all cut to pieces. He was dead, and not further interfered with.
Lieut. Reilly, of the Kansas troops, was not disfigured. His arms were crossed over his face and that was all.
The trail was as plain as the nose on a man’s face.
I saw Keogh the night before the combat, and he asked me what I thought of it. I told him that it would be a bad time: that if he had not made his will, it was about time to do so. I have heard that he did make his will and sent it back by a scout.
Reno had been up the valley, and had seen the trail, which was many miles in breadth.
[Transcriber’s Note: The following paragraph is as published although it is disjointed, as if part of it were missing. I suspect the latter part of the paragraph is talking about Reno’s return from his scout.]
After burying the dead people, we crossed the river, which, by courtesy, may be called a river, the mirage was deceptive. It looked as though there were as many millions of warriors as could be counted, were coming. Reno formed his line and we moved forward to engage. To the very agreeable surprise of many, myself among them, the enemies were found to be not an enemy, but Ball’s and Wheelan’s troops of the Second cavalry.
Benteen and Varnam [sic] were wounded, but not seriously.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 1:10:35 PM
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| Who is the speaker, here, that talked to French? Does this exist in French's handwriting? It is in contrast to other things he's alleged to have said about Reno, but then he was a severe drunk and who knows? Many miles in breadth? |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 2:19:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Who is the speaker, here, that talked to French? Does this exist in French's handwriting? It is in contrast to other things he's alleged to have said about Reno, but then he was a severe drunk and who knows? Many miles in breadth?
I haven't the faintest idea to the answer to any of your questions. One possible clue is the statement French made about sending it to the Chicago Times. If someone has access to past issues of that paper, perhaps more detail may be found. I suspect that the writer had Kansas connections as Lt. Reilly was specifically mentioned. I will take a look at the Standard and see who the editor was and find out if his papers are at the KS Historical Society. That may shed some light; also the paper did not mention that this was "lifted" from another paper as they normally do so I do suspect some direct connection to the paper.
A "severe drunk"? At that time was it not more the norm for officers to indulge in hard drinking than not? And, just out of curiosity, what do you base that allegation upon? Reading through the article does lead me to believe that it is likely that liquid refreshments of the hard-type were featured accompaniments to the "talk."
I suspect the "miles in breadth" falls somewhere in the realm of either: liquor-talk, exaggeration, poor memory or poor writing skills. Take your pick.
Hmmm, two more hours until we play the evil empire...
Best of wishes,
Billy
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Edited by - BJMarkland on March 06 2005 2:21:45 PM |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 4:06:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
A "severe drunk"? At that time was it not more the norm for officers to indulge in hard drinking than not? And, just out of curiosity, what do you base that allegation upon? Reading through the article does lead me to believe that it is likely that liquid refreshments of the hard-type were featured accompaniments to the "talk."
"Captain French, of Company M, Seventh Cavalry, one of the Little Big Horn heroes, will be sent to the inebriate asylum. Dr D'Unger can find a heroic patient in French, and one who would give a large share of his thousands to be himself again" (Black Hills Daily Times, 1/30/79, quoted via French's biography in Nichols's "Men with Custer", pg. 109).
Two weeks earlier, same source (Nichols), French had been dismissed from the service for getting soused with a laundress while on duty. It was later reduced to suspension of rank for one year, and French retired at the end of it.
I think the account probably does derive from French. The account is disjointed and incoherent (it reads like it was written on a napkin) but generally accurate, in a way that if a reporter was making it all up it would not be. All the troop assignments are right, and it includes little details (such as Varnum's and Benteen's wounds) that weren't commonly known.
R. Larsen |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 4:52:39 PM
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Larsen, many thanks for the source and follow-up.
Billy
P.S. UNC is ahead of the evil empire by 5 in the first.  |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 5:53:25 PM
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I got my info from Graham's references and to Barnard's in the book on Ryan regarding French's drinking. I suspect the level of drinking was pretty high as Markland says, and for a particular soldier to be recalled as above and beyond, in that regard, was an accomplishment.
Regarding the piece French wrote, it does read poorly, but because of the positive review of Reno, I'm suspicious if it came from French, given what else he supposedly said about Reno, but maybe he was trying to conform his story to that of the Army's official view three years after the Inquiry. The last part is clearly referring to the Rosebud, since it's arguably damp at best, and must therefore refer to the Scout.
Still, if it were another soldier writing it up for the Fort paper in Leavenworth, this would have been a contested view, for it was only three years after the Inquiry and two after Reno's dismissal from the Army. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 9:07:16 PM
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| Billy, I have an excellent picture of Charlie (left profile)discovered in E.A. Brininstool's - "Troopers with Custer" page 307. That photograph is uncannily close to the man pictured seated (in the middle,front row)looking to his right(also left profile). |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 10:58:18 PM
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OK, the gallery is unanimous that the man in the front is Charlie. I will buy that as my first impression was the same, but then I started thinking with "logic" and ended up with the man in the second row.
For extra fodder regarding the pacific nature of the Plains Indians, I refer you to this site:
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/DL/AtoZ.htm
Scroll down to the document entitled, "Chronological List of Indian Actions."
I have already printed it out and discovered discrepancies between the enlistment records as well as the regimental returns. I will not state, unless positively known, information contrary to either.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on March 06 2005 11:01:25 PM |
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dave
Captain
Australia
Status: offline |
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Research Locations
