Against All Odds Message Board
Against All Odds Message Board
11/25/2024 1:31:18 AM
Home | Old Board Archives | Events | Polls
Photo Album | Classifieds | Downloads
Profile | Register | Members | Private Messages | Search | Posting Tips | FAQ | Web Links | Chat
Bookmarks | Active Topics
Invite A Friend To Face The Odds!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Battle of the Little Bighorn - 1876
 Custer's Last Stand
 Research Locations
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Previous Page | Next Page

Author Previous Topic: Lt. s Harrington and Sturgis? Topic Next Topic: Could Custer have escaped?
Page: of 10

Dark Cloud
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 03 2005 :  3:58:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I believe that the 9th and 10th had issues with townsfolk in Texas, who resented former slaves as their Army, and there was some violence, and this might refer to that or something emerging from that. On the other hand, people ended up officers in these black regiments because they had no other options, and they weren't thrilled to be there. A mildly prejudiced officer might see threat inflation in insubordination to riot/mutiny status.

That's still better than the 7th, though, isn't it?

Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 03 2005 :  8:04:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As far as the townspeople, I have no doubts that you are right that there was friction.

As far as the officers go, what you said was always my opinion also. But today while researching, I read these words about officers in the colored regular army cavalry units.

"The original vacancies in the grades of first and second lieutenant were to be filled by selection from among the officers and soldiers of volunteer cavalry; two-thirds of the original vacancies in the higher grades by selection from among the officers of volunteer cavalry; and one-third from among officers of the regular army. It was further provided that to be eligible for selection, an active service of two years in the field during the War of the Rebellion was necessary; also that applicants should have been distinguished for capacity and good conduct."

It doesn't say whether the officers so selected were volunteers or volunteered.

Also this little tidbit:

"Another enactment considerably affecting the composition of the regiment, and which, because its requirements have been so enlarged by recent legislation as to embrace nearly the entire commissioned force of the regular army, may be deemed of particular interest, is that referring to the examination of officers prior to appointment. It directed that no person should be commissioned in any of the regiments authorized by the Act, until he had passed a satisfactory examination before a board to be composed of officers of the arm of the service in which the applicant was to serve. This board was to be convened by the Secretary of War, and was to inquire into the service rendered during the war by the applicant, as well as into his capacity and qualifications for a commission in the regular forces. Appointments were to be made without reference to previous rank but solely by a consideration of present qualifications and past meritorious services."

Here are the original officers. I think you will find a few familiar names who found that serving as officers in a "colored" regiment was not detrimental to their careers:

Colonel Edward Hatch.

Lieutenant-Colonel Wesley Merritt.

Majors James F. Wade, George A. Forsyth, and Albert P. Morrow.

Chaplain John C. Jocobi.

Captains J. S. Brisbin, Wm. Bayard, G. A. Purington, J. M. Bacon, G. H. Gamble, Henry Carroll, A. E. Hooker, W. T. Frohock, J. C. De Gress, T. A. Boice, F. S. Dodge, and E. M. Heyl.

First Lieutenants Michael Cooney, J. F. Moffatt, J. G. Birney, Charles Parker, J. L. Humfreville, Francis Moore, F. W. Smith, L. H. Rucker, Byron Dawson, J. S. Loud, Patrick Cusack, F. S. Davidson, D. H. Cortelyou, G. B. Bosworth, and W. B. Brunton.

Second Lieutenants I. W. Trask, F. R. Vincent, I. M. Starr, F. P. Gross, E. D. Dimmick, W. W. Tyler, G. W. Budd, T. C. Barden, and J. C. Edgar.

All that and more can be found at this URL:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/R&H/R&H-FM.htm

Best of wishes,

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

Dark Cloud
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 03 2005 :  8:29:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sorry, didn't mean it was detrimental to their careers, but that a lot of officers considered it a bad move to work with blacks, beneath their social station or whatever. Benteen and Custer both opted out of those opportunities, didn't they? Forget.

Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

joseph wiggs
Brigadier General


Status: offline

Posted - February 03 2005 :  8:51:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There were some officers who deemed it detrimental to command blacks, there were some who did not. What is your point?
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

Dark Cloud
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 03 2005 :  11:40:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As I posted it above.

Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General


Status: offline

Posted - February 04 2005 :  2:49:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland

All that and more can be found at this URL:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/R&H/R&H-FM.htm




Some of the articles on the page Billy linked to (an official history of the U.S. army, done by various officers in the 1890s) are pretty mechanical, just a listing of dates, though others are quite entertaining --- check out Captain Hovey's rant on the 24th Infantry page.

I learned through reading the 2nd Cavalry article that Private David Brainard, who was wounded in Miles's attack on Lame Deer's village, May 1877, later participated in Greely's Arctic expedition. That was a disaster, only 7 survived (among them Brainard), and towards the end the survivors had to go cannibal. One of their few successes was setting a new record for "Farthest North". Brainard was one member of the detail who did it; they got to 83 degrees 24 minutes North, according to the material on this page: http://www.arcticwebsite.com/greely1881expedition.html

He lived a long time, dying in 1946.

R. Larsen
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 06 2005 :  12:53:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
DC, I will get back to you re: Benteen's Orders shortly. I have important business to conduct first, drain a keg of beer.

While searching for something else at the National Archives web site using a fuzzy search, I found this interesting picture of what is described as Ogalala Sioux tree burial.

The blessed direct link doesn't work so you will have to view it this way.

1) Go the the Archives Research Catalog page
http://www.archives.gov/research_room/arc/index.html
2) At the top left, click on "Search" to bring up the basic search page.
3) In the Search entry box, enter the document ID: 530913
4) Click "Go" to start search
5) When the results come back, click on "Digital Copy Available"

You can click underneath to get a larger version. To save to your hard drive, just right click on the image and select Save As whatever you want to name it wherever you want it.

That works when I try it.

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

Dark Cloud
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 06 2005 :  1:25:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A real man would quaff at least two kegs. I'm nursing coffee.

You know, that Laramie Treaty photo is very odd. The white guys in chairs - Sherman and all - have unnatural and unclear lighting source it looks like.

Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 06 2005 :  1:51:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yeah, that lighting was likely artificially (and badly I might add) done to the film negative later to bring out the Commission's faces. If the original glass plate negative could be found, you likely would not see that "enhancement".

Of course though, you gave me an idea. If you, in the Search Criteria box enter "Bighorn" and in the filter box immediately below click the box, "Descriptions of Archival materials linked to digital copies", there are some images about the LBH such as Terry's initial telegram to Sherman, Terry's first report of the disaster and Poland's report from Standing Rock Agency 7/31/1876 recounting interviews with Sioux who had been involved at the LBH. You get a few pictures of the Bighorn [sic] river near Hardin as well as the Crow reservation as a bonus.

If you use the same process with the keyword "Custer", you will get an awful lot of Custer photos, some I had not seen before.

Doing the same except using keyword "Laramie" brings up a lot of pictures of old Ft. Laramie. It also brings up many images taken around the Laramie mountains by the Haydn expedition.

Billy

Edited by - BJMarkland on February 06 2005 2:07:25 PM
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 06 2005 :  3:38:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sorry Larsen & DC, I have been playing around at the NARA site and will get with you two on the Benteen's Orders thread shortly.

This has no relevence to the Indian Wars but NARA has some really nice photos of the aftermath of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire. At the basic search page, enter these words within the quotes:

" San Francisco Earthquake of 1906"

You should pull up around 180 images.

They also have many WWI photos, including a fantastic one of two men sliding down robes at the stern of a sinking ship as the last life boat is rowed away, but I need to remember exactly how I got there.

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

dave
Captain


Australia
Status: offline

Posted - February 07 2005 :  07:52:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Out of curiousity Billy, are there any action photo's of Indians in battle from the Indian Wars period left in existance?

Edited by - dave on February 07 2005 08:00:31 AM
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

dave
Captain


Australia
Status: offline

Posted - February 07 2005 :  08:09:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did you see the photo of this bloke Billy? Although I guess you've probably seen it elsewhere anyway, even if you haven't found on NARA.

http://arcweb.archives.gov/arc/digital_detail.jsp?&pg=1&rn=1&tn=524359&st=b&rp=details&nh=1
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 07 2005 :  08:49:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dave, what bloke? You can't post direct links to the results of a search of the NARA site. What you need to do is note the "ARC Identifier Number" which then can be put into the keyword field of the search.

As far as your earlier question about whether there are any photos in existence of Indian attacks, I have to respond with a resounding "I don't think so." Dee Brown, no comments DC, stated in Ft. Phil Kearny: An American Saga republished as The Fetterman Massacre that Leslie's Illustrated photographer Ridgeway Glover may have gotten some shots of the Indian attack at Crazy Woman's creek. Someone, I forget whom, stated that his camera was broken. Since he was killed by Indians not long after that, we will never know. I do know that Chaplain White's letter to Leslie's did not mention any photographic plates and the Leslie's article of his death did not either.

Hopefully, somewhere in an old attic, there may exist some photographic plates of an actual Indian attack but then, I am somewhat of an optimist. I have to be, with a headache like I now have!

Best of wishes,

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

wILD I
Brigadier General


Ireland
Status: offline

Posted - February 07 2005 :  09:03:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BJ
I doubt that photography was advanced enough then to take more than still shots.
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

dave
Captain


Australia
Status: offline

Posted - February 07 2005 :  09:26:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Custers scout. The photo was actually taken on the Yellowstone expedition.

The ARC Identifier is: 524373
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

Dark Cloud
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 07 2005 :  09:31:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You know, I was just finishing my breakfast - shredded wheat swimming in warm, stale beer - and preparing lunch - chicken fat sandwiches with mayo on pork belly rinds - when someone brought up the name "Dee Brown."

Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 07 2005 :  09:46:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wILD I

BJ
I doubt that photography was advanced enough then to take more than still shots.


Wild, you are correct, it was not. Likely, if a photo ever surfaced, we would see nothing but blurs and dust.

DC, you sir, are a sadist!

Dave, thanks, I will go look now.

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 07 2005 :  09:51:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dave

Custers scout. The photo was actually taken on the Yellowstone expedition.

The ARC Identifier is: 524373


Dave, excellent! To the rest, Dave found a picture of Bloody Knife.

Boy, that NARA site has more on-line than I remembered. Dave, did you look at all those Custer photos? Several where taken when he was fairly young during the Civil War from what I could tell.

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

dave
Captain


Australia
Status: offline

Posted - February 08 2005 :  09:09:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No I didn't - what search terms were you using?

I was hoping to find some pictures of Last Stand Hill, but didn't have any success.
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 14 2005 :  1:07:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dave, sorry about the delay in response but work was extremely "exciting" last week and I never had a chance to check the board.

The search term I used initially was "Custer" but I just tried it with this term, "Gen. Custer" and it pulled up essentially the same photos. Be sure to check the box linking the results to "Descriptions linked to digital copies."

I will play around and see if there is anything in there of LSH. There are a couple of photos under I think keyword "Bighorn" which shows images of land around the park.

Best of wishes,

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 14 2005 :  1:20:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Over at the National Park Service, I discovered this excerpt in the Archaeology section by Doug Scott and P. Willey.

quote:
Osteological Analysis of Human Skeletons Excavated from the Custer National Cemetery.
Willey, P. and Douglas D. Scott

Since the turn of the century, skeletons from the Little Bighorn battlefields have been recovered and placed in the associated Custer National Cemetery (CNC). Some of the battle-related skeletal specimens in the cemetery, mostly isolated elements recovered since 1950, had been analyzed previously, but the majority of the elements, those exhumed in the first half of the twentieth century, has not been described.

To complete the analysis of all battle-related specimens in the cemetery, skeletal remains of 10 individuals were exhumed from the CNC in May 1992. Included with these 10 individuals were three groups of elements that are unassignable to any of the 10. An additional individual was sent to the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument (LIBI) in December 1992 and was included with the sample. All but one of the skeletons are consistent with those of nineteenth-century cavalry troopers. Skeletal elements were variously preserved, with the larger, more proximal bones being more frequently recovered than the smaller, more distal ones. Doubtlessly this representation reflects the exhumation practices of the first half of the twentieth century.

Analysis of these skeletal remains provided information concerning elements present, age, sex, race, stature, pathological and anomalous conditions, health, and personal identification. Standard osteological techniques were employed.

The osteological consequences of the troopers' lives and lifestyles are assessed. The age distribution includes more younger and more older troopers than might be expected from enlistment records. Stature estimations range from 65 to 71 inches. Minor developmental malformations, including growth delays and possible deviated toes, are frequent. Healed fractures are common. Degenerative joint problems are overwhelming, being particularly frequent and severe in the lower to middle spinal region and in the upper limbs. Many of the fractures and degenerative changes, and possibly some articular facet extensions, are attributed to horseback riding. Dental health is generally moderate or poor as indicated by antemortem tooth loss, carious lesions, and alveolar resorption, suggesting poor dental hygiene. One cavalryman, however, had at least six fillings. All dentitions suggest habitual tobacco use.

In addition to the troopers' lifestyles, the circumstances surrounding and following their deaths can be inferred. Perimortem injuries include gunshot wounds (GSWs), blunt-force trauma, and sharpforce injuries. Several of the GSWs may have been the cause of death, although others are more likely mutilations, performed shortly after death. Blunt-force trauma is uncommon, suggesting distant, rather than close-range fighting, for the most part. Cuts are infrequent or absent on some individuals and numerous on others. One trooper, for instance, had cuts suggesting shoulder, elbow, hand, hip, and genital dismemberment-nearly 100 cuts in all.

The identities of some of the skeletons can be suggested. Farrier Vincent Charley and Cpl. George Lell are identified with fair probability. Other identities are less certain
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 14 2005 :  1:32:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I found this also at NPS. This is report by Bruce A. Jones on the archaeology and history of the village at Pawnee Fork which Gen. Hancock burned in 1876 after the Indians abandoned it. It is in Adobe .pdf format and is 182 pages long but which, at first glance, contains some interesting information.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/mwac/publications/pdf/tech86.pdf

Best of wishes,

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

Dark Cloud
Brigadier General


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 14 2005 :  1:46:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dark Cloud's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Since dental work would require money, and the Army HMO probably excluded trivialities like dental care, would that individual with fillings be a likely officer? Was any identification effort made, and is that sop? Were DNA samples taken or able to be taken?

And although it doesn't bother me, who grants permission in such circumstances for the exhumations? If two of the bodies were known by name, were the families consulted?

Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General


Status: offline

Posted - February 14 2005 :  2:10:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The guy with the fillings is the one they think is Lell. He lived in Cincinnati before enlisting, where there was a dental school, and they assume that that's how he was able to get them. Their case rests mainly on a match of the skull with Lell's picture, since the height of the skeleton doesn't match the height in the enlistment records, which they assume are in error --- which is possible, I guess.

R. Larsen
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page

BJMarkland
Colonel


USA
Status: offline

Posted - February 15 2005 :  05:48:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit BJMarkland's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Off-topic thought:

One of the saddest refrains in modern song has to be this:

quote:
There's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes,
Jesus Christ died for nothin' I suppose.
Little pitchers have big ears,
Don't stop to count the years,
Sweet songs never last too long on broken radios.


"Sam Stone" written by John Prine

Complete lyrics to, IMHO,one of the greatest American anti-war songs written can be found at:

http://www.jpshrine.org/lyrics/songs/jpsamstone.html

Now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.

Billy
Go to Bottom of PageGo to Top of Page
Page: of 10 Previous Topic: Lt. s Harrington and Sturgis? Topic Next Topic: Could Custer have escaped?  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:
 
Custom Search

Against All Odds Message Board © 1998-2010 Rich Federici/Mohican Press Go To Top Of Page
This page was raised in 0.14 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.03