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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - November 17 2003 : 10:32:53 PM
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 Mr. Dark Cloud, you'll have to excuse my asking if Gall really used the word "pissed off." Reading your posts and the way you're always calling for specificity, who, what, where and when and the written authority, it sure seemd like a reasonable request. I guess some are better at questioning than being questioned. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 18 2003 : 12:08:00 AM
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Some of the accounts were taken directly at the field, with warriors pointing out and standing where they remember things happening. Others said things like "where the monument is now", which probably wasn't word for word but about how it translates. Others, like Big Beaver, alluded to an actual marker as where he saw a soldier killed who tried to flee and he got a carbine from the result.
Its not like these Indians saw Waterloo and tried to explain what happened. It was a small engagement with separated units, which would keep things from getting too confusing. It also helped that the companies had differently-colored horses.
I didn't take DC's comments about Gall being "pissed" as a literal translation. His family was killed, so I think if the word "pissed" existed in Lakota, he'd have likely used it to describe his feelings. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 18 2003 : 3:51:28 PM
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| Gee, Frank, I guess some people are like that, but since I wrote "generally said...something like" you can hardly demand of me a specific translation rendered off the top of my head. In my line of work you get confronted a lot, so you tend to choose words carefully and accurately. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - November 18 2003 : 5:40:19 PM
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| WEll, So much for Battlefield Artifacts and Findings......Mr. Black Cloud, you can relax, you are not at work here. This is a hobby and special interest. This is an escape from work....we do this for fun...If I may, I would like to invite discussion on artifacts and findings....I think I can do that since I originated the topic. Maybe you could start a topic on "word smithing" or something or go watch Judge Judy? I think we could attract more people to join in on the fun of discussion if we can leave out the politics and political correctness, waddusay?? Lets talk about relics here. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 18 2003 : 10:14:48 PM
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The relic sample is very interesting to look at, but both DC and I have a problem with Fox determining too much from them, for different reasons.
DC's Reason: You can't prove who fired what bullet, who left what cartridge, and when they were fired.
My Reason: You can't ignore the relic-hunting as a very viable theory as to why so few cartridges were found, especially on Last Stand Hill.
I was reading Michno again last night, and I re-read the subject of cartridge casings found at or around LSH. If the Indian accounts are correct in listing combat deaths, about 15 warriors were killed around LSH. The same accounts describe 1 death around Calhoun Hill. Given the "paucity" of cartridges found on Last Stand Hill, the otherwise inept soldiers must have suddenly turned into marksmen, hitting 15 warriors with only a few fired cartridges...
But the actual relics are very interesting to look at. The bones being found are most interesting to me. Seeing some of the wounds and mutilation marks, being able to narrow down and sometimes pinpoint (i.e. Mitch Bouyer) who might have left them is quite fascinating. And the find of hundreds of cartridges on the ridges above MTC really changed what a lot of people thought about the battle. Before the fire and the archaeology, people really didn't think Custer's battalion fought above MTC. I'd imagine most of the deductions about movement and where fighting occurred was from where bodies were found and markers were erected. It wasn't known if Custer went to the river or marched straight to the field his men were found on via the bluffs. We've now decided Custer's battalion approached the river AND stayed above the river before moving to the final field. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Halmyers
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 19 2003 : 10:26:54 PM
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I do not find it impossible for Jason to have recovered 6000 shell
casings from the area of the valley fight. And I have no doubt in
my own mind that ammunition was a big factor in Maj Reno's retreat
from the valley. If you keep in mind that he had 129 men in his
command. Each man carried 50 rds in ammo belts and 50 rds in their
saddle bags of 45/70 ammunition. If each man had fired 3rpm in 15
to 20 minutes he would have fired 45rds. Of the 12,900rds carried
into battle by Maj Reno's command in less then 30 minutes half of
it had already been fired.
In "Troopers With Custer" Lt Varnum states, "If we had remained in
the river bottom twenty minutes longer, not a man of us would have
escaped. We were nearly out of ammunition when we did leave." He also
goes on to say that when the command had reached the bluffs what was
left of the command did not average 5rds per man. He also makes the
statement in the same book pg-106, that he was in the rear of Capt Moylan's line, he dismounted and went up on the line. He heard Moylan
call out that his men were out of ammunition and ordered each alternate to fall back from the line and get ammunition from their
saddle-bags, which also shows that in less then 30 minutes half their
ammunition was gone.
Maj Reno was running out of ammunition and no kind of support in
sight. He had no choice but to get to higher ground. What Jason had
found proves Varnum's statements to be true. One could say that the
Maj had no choice, but I do not believe it was done in the orderly
manner in which he claims. In the Battle of The Rosebud it is said
that Gen Crook's command fired about 25,000 rds of ammunition. Of all
those shell casing how many do you think you would find there today.
I don't believe you would find many, I am sure the relic hunter's
have picked it clean. I am sure that the same thing had happened
on Custer's battlefield, and I am sure it was more then shell casings
that was taken. |
Thanks
Hal Myers |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 06:49:26 AM
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quote:
[i] In the Battle of The Rosebud it is said
that Gen Crook's command fired about 25,000 rds of ammunition. Of all
those shell casing how many do you think you would find there today.
I don't believe you would find many, I am sure the relic hunter's
have picked it clean. I am sure that the same thing had happened
on Custer's battlefield, and I am sure it was more then shell casings
that was taken.
From 1975-1979 Fred Werner made eight trips to the Rosebud with permission of Slim Kobold who oned the property at that time, he was very sucessful in finding many shell casings. He was also accompanied by Henry Weibert on at least one occasion. Weibert had already relic hunted there in the years before. J.W. Vaughn probably found the most shell casings of all. He was there before Werner. Mr. Kobold pointed out to Werner one ridge where Kobold had found thousands of shell casings. These are the only documented findings that I know of. I am sure there were many more shell picked up by others in the years before Kobold sold the land to the State Park. I would estimate that there were probably many more rounds picked up by others. By the time Werner finished his eight trip, he was having a pretty tough time to find much of anything.
Thanks
Tim |
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Halmyers
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 9:34:08 PM
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Tim
I have spent a great deal of my time on civil war battlefields, about
2 years ago along with a few friends we went to the Mine Run Battle-
field in VA. We went on a sunday, we thought it would be quit and not
many people around. Well when we got there we found 14 people walking
the treach areas with metal detectors, I just had a hard time under-
standing that one. But to my question, what in the world do these
people do with all these shell casings.
Hal |
Thanks
Hal Myers |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 20 2003 : 11:29:03 PM
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How many rounds were expended in the valley? Depends on who gave the account. Some soldiers said they were running out, some said they had only fired a few. Not every soldier fired the EXACT same amount of rounds on the skirmish line, and not every soldier was speaking of the same total. Some of them could have meant they were running low on cartridges on hand, meaning they still had their reserves in the saddlebags. But since the horses were being held to the rear, they were running low on readily available ammunition.
Since there wasn't one person in charge of policing rounds and keeping records of who expended what and when. Officers would have a slightly better account of how many rounds were fired, as their charges would probably relay their plight to them at some point. But as a whole, its not possible to determine how many rounds were expended by the battalion, especially with about 60 soldiers either dead, wounded or missing. Most probably made their assessment of rounds left based on personal usage, which is hardly an accurate way to determine the battalion's situation. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2003 : 7:50:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Halmyers
Tim
I have spent a great deal of my time on civil war battlefields, about
2 years ago along with a few friends we went to the Mine Run Battle-
field in VA. We went on a sunday, we thought it would be quit and not
many people around. Well when we got there we found 14 people walking
the treach areas with metal detectors, I just had a hard time under-
standing that one. But to my question, what in the world do these
people do with all these shell casings.
Hal
Hi Hal,
I have relic hunted in Virginia many times myself. Relic Hunting is like fishing or hunting. It is not so much how many you accumulate as it is that you have succes when you go out with your detector. As for what do you do with them. Well, most of us are pack rats...there are quite a few of the guys that sell thier finds. I can assure you that if you saw as many as 14 relic hunters in one small area, it was either because of a change in the ground (from storm, construction, or other disturbance) or just desperate relic hunters just trying to find a civil war relic. These days, the civil war relics are hard to come by. Especially in the well known places and especially in and around trenches. While there were metallic cartidges from the Civil War period, the most common finds are the dropped minnie balls of .58 caliber. These were paper cartridges. The funny thing is, in the early years of metal detecting, everyone wanted to hunt the battlefields.......by the 1970's experienced relic hunters and researchers began to realize the quality relics such as buttons, belt plates, etc, would be found in the winter camps. I just purchased a post card taken by L.A. Huff in 1916. The photo is of General Godfrey and Waltem M. Camp searching for cartridge casings on Reno Hill. |
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Halmyers
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2003 : 9:14:52 PM
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Well El Crab, unless it was a case where you had to account for every
round you fired I could see your point. There is no body running from
one company or the other to see how many rounds you have fired. As for the 60 killed or wounded or missing you are talking about, they
could not have been from the valley fight, from all I have read there
was only 40 lost in the valley fight, where did the other 20 come from. And if I read you right you are saying that while one company
was using ammo the other company did not fire a shot, and also that
that the only ammo they fire is what they carried in their ammo belt.
Let me point out something that is one of the things that most people
including your self that you will not omit, and that is that soldiers ran out of ammo. And no matter what anybody may think or
care to think, it happened in the valley fight and it also happened
to the companies with Gen Custer. Even if he had sent for Benteen it
would not have made one bit of difference in the out come of the
battle, if Benteen had come to the aid of Reno, it would not have
made a difference. The reason is that that indian's would have wiped
Benteen out and as would have done no matter which directions Benteen
took. If it had not been for Benteen Reno would have been wiped out
unless he continued to run. With the exception of those on Custer
Hill who shot their horse's and had ammo from the saddle bags, the
rest just simply ran out of ammunitions. However there are those
who will never except that, as they will never except the fighting
ability of the american Indian and how they fought, we always talk
about what Gen Custer did and didn't do. What you should really talk
about is what the Indian did and Custer didn't do |
Thanks
Hal Myers |
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Wrangler
Lieutenant
Status: offline |
Posted - November 22 2003 : 10:18:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Halmyers"...soldiers ran out of ammo. And no matter what anybody may think or care to think, it happened in the valley fight and it also happened to the companies with Gen Custer. Even if he had sent for Benteen it would not have made one bit of difference in the out come of the battle, if Benteen had come to the aid of Reno, it would not have made a difference. The reason is that that indian's would have wiped Benteen out and as would have done no matter which directions Benteen took. If it had not been for Benteen Reno would have been wiped out unless he continued to run ... What you should really talk about is what the Indian did and Custer didn't do.
Hal--well said. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 23 2003 : 12:46:28 AM
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| Forty soldiers were killed, about 10 were wounded and at least 15 were missing after Reno ran from the valley. And if you read anything about combat behavior, some soldiers will not fire a single shot. The skirmish line was set up with one of the companies in reserve, I believe, and not every soldier would fire the same amount of rounds. Also, at least half of the cartridges were in the saddlebags, which were not on the line but in the hands of the holders. Which brings me to another point, 25% of the soldiers were not firing at all, but holding mounts to the rear. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
Edited by - El Crab on November 23 2003 12:48:53 AM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 23 2003 : 12:42:07 PM
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Okay, does Halmyers mean 'accept' or what he wrote 'except'? Because they both work grammatically but to opposite ends if in conjunction with the previous 'omit,' although he may have meant 'admit.' Very confusing.
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Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Halmyers
Private
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 23 2003 : 5:38:11 PM
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El Crab, Your are correct, I did not figure the horse holders into
the equation, my mistake.
Hal
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Thanks
Hal Myers |
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Keith
Recruit
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2003 : 2:31:34 PM
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Since this has apparently been a bone of contention with some NPS historians/archeologists, I would like your thoughts!
(1) Henry Weibert claimed to have found Custer's personal .50 caliber brass casing at the LBH! Some NPS historians say "not"! What do you think?
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2003 : 3:32:37 PM
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| We'd need to know the reasoning behind his assertion of having found Custer's personal cartridges. What evidence does he have that supports this claim? Some thought the presence of brass casings meant Custer, or at least, his guns were present and fired in the area of the find, but there were more than one person in fight with brass casings... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Keith
Recruit
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2003 : 3:54:57 PM
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El Crab,
Henry Weibert made the claim in two books (actually written by Don the son): Sixty Six Years in the Shadow of Custer and in Custer, Cases and Cartridges. I do not have a copy of either right now, so I cannot give you pages numbers. But his rationale was is included in these two books. If I recollect correctly, his primary rationale included the following reasons: (1) brass casing; (2) commercial primer; and (3) Custer had just been back east to testify against PresidentGrant's brother and had availability to this 'new' cartridge (brass and commercial primer). |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2003 : 4:20:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
We'd need to know the reasoning behind his assertion of having found Custer's personal cartridges. What evidence does he have that supports this claim? Some thought the presence of brass casings meant Custer, or at least, his guns were present and fired in the area of the find, but there were more than one person in fight with brass casings...
El Crab: You're right. I don't have Scott's book handy, but I remember that his conclusions were that 14 (?) different weapons fired brass cartridges during the battle. No one can say beyond a shadow of doubt that finding a brass cartridge proves it's a Custer cartridge. Or, we would have to assume that Custer went into battle like Rambo carrying weapons all over his body!!! My personal opinion, Weibert's books are the worst written on this battle. |
Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2003 : 7:34:34 PM
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A lot of people seem to discount anything written by an amateur historian. I have both of Wiebert's books and while I do find that he comes across in a bold fashion, I really thing some of the things he has brought to the table need to be taken seriously.
Well, for one thing, I doubt that we would ever be able to prove that any one shell casing (such as the brass 50/70's belonged to Custer himself) BUT, he was there, he did carry the 50/70 sporting rifle, and I think it has been said that he did purchase the brass casings??? Hey, they were there, they droped shells, and fired many, So, one theory is as good as another, right???
Even the archeaologist are basing their theories on their finds--- so, lets not crucify anyone for making a theory. After all, this is what keeps the story alive. Professional vs. Amateur --- Jason and the Wiebert's have recovered many more artifacts that the NPS. And there are others that have not published their finds.
Well, anyway, we have to look at the big picture and consider all of the finds.... |
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Keith
Recruit
Status: offline |
Posted - December 07 2003 : 10:56:36 PM
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Tim,
I agree that all finds must be considered! When amateurs find artifacts, some (not all) professionals take it as a personal offense, and then go on a bashing spree aimed at the amateur. Yes, amateurs sometimes make huge mistakes in their analysis, but I have seen the same thing done by professionals (i.e.; some articles and chapters in books written about the Battle of the Butte). The nice thing about when amateurs leaving an account/record of their discoveries is that the reader can take their knowledge of the battle, use it as a tool, and make their own analysis.
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 08 2003 : 12:03:27 AM
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| Well, I don't discount that Custer fired them. Its perfectly fine to comprise theories. But its not proof without hard evidence. Its possible Custer fired them, but what I want is proof. Any brass casing of a .50/70 variety could have been fired by Custer, but to say he did for sure, I need to see more than just "the casings were brass, .50/70 and were found on the field"... |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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Keith
Recruit
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2003 : 02:26:56 AM
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Does anyone know about the Reynold's Fight on the Powder River? What are your thoughts about Crook vs. Reynolds. Whom was to blame for this defeat? |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 13 2003 : 11:55:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Keith
Does anyone know about the Reynold's Fight on the Powder River? What are your thoughts about Crook vs. Reynolds. Whom was to blame for this defeat?
Crook wasn't even present, so I'm not sure what you see as the issue. Anyway, all battlefield decisions on the camp, the horses, and the withdrawal were made by Reynolds, and the fact that a wounded soldier was left behind doesn't speak highly for his (or of anybody else's) presence of mind.
R. Larsen
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2003 : 02:32:32 AM
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 Keith, as I understand it, Reynolds had fouled up previously and this attack on what he thought was Crazy Horse's village was his chance to redeem himself. I think it was Crook who sent him. I'm sure I'll be corrected on parts of this I'm wrong about, as I'm just sort of shooting from the hip about things I haven't read about in a few years. Reynolds marched his men through terrible cold to reach the village, and had them abandon much of their winter jackets, etc. The initial attack was a success, but the Indians took the high ground of a plateau west of the Powder. As 8169 said, he did abandon a wounded soldier in the area of Hospital Ridge where he was killed and mutilated. I think four soldiers were kiled in all, and are buried under a cairn just off the road overlooking the valley and river. Reynolds further screwed up when he burned the village and all its contents, including heavy clothing and food which is freezing, hungry men could've used. He captured I think around 600 ponies, only to have them recaptured by the Indians as the soldiers made their way back. It was a total failure except that it did deprive the Indians of much of their supplies and sent them packing until they were taken in by Crazy Horse. If you want to visit the site, it is under new ownership. From the road you'll see a house with a couple buildings. You can approach the folks and ask if you can walk the field. If they're convinced you aren't out artifact-looking, they might let you go off on your own for awhile. They are thinking about running tours of their own in the future. Except for the dirt road above the valley and the couple of buildings, it's as pristine as it was back then. A beautiful site. A friend and I visited there last summer, got permission to spend a couple hours there, and ate our deli sandwiches under the cottonwoods on the spot next to the river where the village sat. Very inspiring. |
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Battlefield Artifacts and Findings
