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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - November 12 2003 : 9:52:42 PM
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I think one of the most facinating aspects of the studies ever done thus far are the recovery of artifacts since the fires. Much has been and is still being learned from them.
I think one must understand that the collecting of the artifacts did not begin with the fires in the 80's. For many years those visiting the battle site surely picked up cartidges and other artifacts. I think for the most part though, the average visitor just like the average visitor of today focused on Last Stand Hill. Who knows how many artifacts were removed in the early years after the battle. Don't you know the soldiers who went back there for the reburials and maker placements would have taken some?
I have seen a photo taken about 1916 where Gen Godfrey and W.M. Camp were looking for cartridge casings on Reno Benteen Hill site.
Henry Wiebert and son Don (both passed away now) ranched the valley from the early 1900's, collecting hundreds of shell casings, and I know of at least one 1851 Belt Plate, spurs, and other items.
Then Jason was also very sucessful (on his family land) between the Wieberts and Jason there were thousands of items found AND DOCUMENTED. They both did a very good job of documenting their finds.
Then the Realbirds -- They found many items in MTC area over the years...
Would this not explain why "not many artifacts were found on Custer Hill and MTC"
Many of Jason's things are in the museum at Garryowen, some great stuff!
Wiebert did a couple of books, I was fortunate to correspond with both of them. Wieberts book Custer- Cartridges and Cases is a nice piece of work don by him with his interpretation of the battle.
Something to think about.
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 12 2003 : 11:09:04 PM
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I've been saying that for a while. The "paucity" of cartridges on LSH could be explained by relic hunting that occurred for 100+ years before an actual archaeological dig was planned.
Sgt. Ryan mentioned brass casings being found under Custer's body on LSH, and they were picked up as souvenirs. Its very possible they were from his Remington Sporting rifle, and very possible that he fired them. The average person without a metal detector would have most likely looked on LSH for cartridges before the fence was erected. Who knows how many cartridges were picked up by soldiers present during the burials, visiting the field within a few years of the fight, and by visitors. And you'd have to ask yourself where would people want to find them? The main draw of the fight was Custer, therefore the main draw to the field would be Custer. And Custer was found and his marker is on LSH. I'm sure other areas of the field have been combed over, but they would not be nearly as popular to search.
"I found this cartridge about 10 feet from Custer's marker!" would have much more of a cachet than "I found this cartridge on some slope."
When was the fence erected around the LSH markers?
Here's another thing I just thought of: When bodies were moved buried the first time, dirt was "shoveled" over them. At that point, not much earth was moved. But officers and soldiers removed and buried elsewhere, plus the soldiers being exhumed and reburied several times, how much did that affect the presence of artifacts? It stands to reason that a soldier on a burial detail, having removed some earth with a shovel, might reach down and pick up a cartridge or bullet he saw in that scoop of dirt. The possibilities of relic hunting before an official archaeological excavation could take place are pretty endless. I wouldn't say this would render all deductions moot, but it NEEDS to be addressed more than it is. Fox makes some mention of this in his books, but there should have been more. A whole chapter should have been devoted on explaining possible and documented removal of relics, and something to explain that his theories are just that, theories, not fact. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 12 2003 : 11:12:14 PM
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| Isn't the Custer Cartridges book by Weibert really hard to find and expensive? I think I saw it on Amazon as out of print, and a used copy was over 100 dollars. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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pgb3
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - November 12 2003 : 11:54:57 PM
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| I would agree that cartridge casings would be great souvenirs, but not spent bullets. A spent bullet looks, essentially, like a misshapen lump of lead. That is what Fox bases his theory on a limited fight on—the actual bullets in most cases. Read him again. The casings are gravy and the low hanging fruit for relic hunters. The lead balls themselves, imbedded into the earth—and skeletons, tell the tale for a paucity of defensive fighting in the LSH area. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 13 2003 : 01:29:05 AM
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But it really doesn't. How deep do bullets penetrated the ground? How many bullets hit soldiers, dead or alive, or horses? How many bullets flew over or past soldiers and fell harmlessly to the ground several hundred yards away? Considering the range of the Springfields, how far would your average bullet fly if not stopped short by hitting a solid object? Fox made his deductions based on the paucity of casings, and the amount of impacted rounds in the ground on LSH. Its not as if the warriors were devastatingly accurate shooting at men on a hill. Plus, many of those soldiers on LSH were lying prone, sometimes behind dead horses or perhaps a dead comrade. Also, I think a lot of the soldiers didn't fire a lot of rounds due to several factors: not seeing a target to shoot at; trying not to be a target themselves by exposing their person; the small amount of personnel present on the hill itself; and fear. Some soldiers probably just were too scared to fight. I don't see it as a gallant last stand, even though some of them did perform gallantly. I saw it as a tragic human event. I can't imagine being on a hill, surrounded by "savages", unable to flee, knowing you're going to die. It must have been a stark contrast to their feelings of the morning, or looking on the village from the eastern bluffs with Custer, confident of victory, riling them up before attacking.
My contention of the "Last Stand" is not of a close range, 40 men v. an overwhelming horde, but it was men being picked off and wounded, some fighting, some hiding. When the numbers were reduced to only 15 or 20 alive and not severely wounded, some soldiers jumped up and ran for their lives. The funny thing about Fox is he believes soldiers were still fighting in Deep Ravine, and these other soldiers were running to them. I highly doubt this. I don't think anyone was fighting in Deep Ravine when the run for it happened. I think they were running for their lives, before LSH would be overrun. I believe they knew the warriors were going to be moving in due to the reduced numbers on LSH, so they ran for it. Anyone running at that point was running for cover, for the slight chance they could find shelter and hide. Its even possible that Custer ordered this run. It could have included the civilians and Mitch Bouyer. Custer's youngest brother and nephew were reported found down the LSH slope, they might have been apart of this run.
Troopers ran from Calhoun to Keogh, from Keogh to LSH to join still intact bodies of cavalry. E Company moved down to the lower Cemetery Ridge basin, were counterattacked, and many sought shelter in Deep Ravine. These soldiers were killed BEFORE the soldiers on LSH ran for it, and several accounts mention killing these soldiers and then returning their attention to LSH. More soldiers were picked off, a few ran for the river, Deep Ravine, basically anywhere but LSH, and they were killed. Then, the warriors moved in to kill the rest of the soldiers on LSH. That's the end of the Last Stand, the brief hand to hand fighting as warriors finished off the defenders and wounded on LSH. Fox thinks the fighting ended in Deep Ravine, and the most of last soldiers on LSH ran for the soldiers fighting there. But no accounts mention the last fighting in Deep Ravine. Some mention the last killings of soldiers trying to hide or escape, and that the whites running towards the river did not return fire. They just ran, and were cut down. According to accounts, a soldier or two made it close to the river during the run before being killed. Doesn't sound like they were running to reach others in Deep Ravine, but to flee altogether, with the ravine serving as a possible exit. Then the warriors moved to finish off LSH. So the Last Stand, though not what its usually presented as, did take place on LSH.
Main Entry: last
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English latost, superlative of læt late
Date: before 12th century
1 : after all others : at the end <came last and left first>
Main Entry: stand
Function: noun
Date: 1592
1 : an act of stopping or staying in one place
2 a : a halt for defense or resistance b : an often defensive effort of some duration or degree of success <a goal-line stand>
The last soldiers alive and fighting in a group were on LSH. Fox thinks that the soldiers running for it prove the Last Stand to be false. And his "evidence" is their desire to join the presence of resisting soldiers already in Deep Ravine being the last to fall, which I've yet to read about in any Indian account. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 13 2003 : 8:06:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Isn't the Custer Cartridges book by Weibert really hard to find and expensive? I think I saw it on Amazon as out of print, and a used copy was over 100 dollars.
I was fortunate to have bought my directly from Don Wiebert. When he sold his ranch on Reno Road, he moved to Kingman AZ during the winter months. About the only place I have seen the book lately is on Ebay and is offered by Christopher at Garryowen. I do not know how much they are bringing on the auction but the last price I know of from Don they were $125 each. One interesting thing that Wiebert stated in the book was that he found a brass casing down around MTC and he thinks it was fired by Custer himself, he also thnks he might have possibly been wounded in that initial attack. |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 13 2003 : 8:31:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
But it really doesn't. How deep do bullets penetrated the ground? How many bullets hit soldiers, dead or alive, or horses? How many bullets flew over or past soldiers and fell harmlessly to the ground several hundred yards away? Considering the range of the Springfields, how far would your average bullet fly if not stopped short by hitting a solid object?
Fired bullets do not penetrate the ground as deep as one would think. I have personally hunted many Civil War sites and recovered hundreds of .58 calibre lead bullets. There are always factors to consider....over 125+ years there has been a lot of erosion, fill, plowing, grazing, and the like. On the average I have found what we call "dropped" bullets anywhere from 2 to 8 inches deep. I have hunted hillsides and found artillery frags and bullets that were fired in the same manner. I have actually found some artillery frags laying on top of the ground just beneath the oak leaves.
I have hunted behind breasworks and found many bullets, but almost always they are only 8 inches deep or less, most of the time less. There have been many more bullets recovered an less depth way before I hunted some of these sites. The reason I was finding the deeper bullets was because of the better technology in the detectors that I was using verses the ones used in the years before I hunted the areas.
In my opinion, every artifact is important -- the cartridges, the lead projectiles, the personal items, horse tack, etc.
I have a lot of respect for Fox and the others who have worked professionally. They are basing their reports on what they have found. I have some very good friends who are professional archeaolgist. It is very unusual for them to recognize the findings of relic hunters. I think Fox and others have been very open to recognize the findings of Jason Pitsch and other locals like Wiebert.
At least, the findings by Fox and others rest in the proper place, within the holdings of the battlefield collection. they are professionally cataloged, mapped, and filed. We know more about the battle today becasue of thier work.
Many of the artifacts found by Jason have already been auctioned off and sold on ebay, who knows where Wieberts collection will wind up.
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alfuso
Corporal
Status: offline |
Posted - November 14 2003 : 12:15:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Isn't the Custer Cartridges book by Weibert really hard to find and expensive? I think I saw it on Amazon as out of print, and a used copy was over 100 dollars.
You can get a brand new copy for about $120 from the Weibert Estate.
You won't find it much cheaper anywhere these days.
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 14 2003 : 11:02:31 PM
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No, timrads, we don't 'know' more today about the battle because of Fox and Scott's work. We know where they found shell casings and other stuff, but neither they nor you nor I nor anyone can prove these items were there and utilized by the participants of this battle during this battle. There are certainly numerous other options that might explain the presence and location of these items.
They cannot distinguish cartridges fired from soldiers'guns by soldiers from their killers' utilization of the weapon afterwards. They do not address the persistent rumors of officialdom salting the field with shells so VIP tourists could find something. They do not separate out Indians coming back over the course of a year and shooting into the corpses of their enemies like they did to everyone else. They don't inquire if formal salutes fired over the various graves - including initial burials, re-burials, and on celebratory events were cleaned up. This was a popular spot before and after the battle. Numerous trips here from the local forts. Plus the tenth anniversary celebration.
Since both Weir on the 25th and Terry's scouts the next day were fooled by Sioux and Cheyenne feigning soldierdom on horseback with guidons, and since the Sioux themselves were scared when these warriors returned to camp dressed in uniforms and riding in formation, 'evidence' for the 7th's supposed lunge piecemeal down the river is quite entirely weak.
Even so, the number of shell casings is so small and of such uncertain lineage that they are next to meaningless anyway. There isn't a single conjecture based upon the archaeology masking as forensics that can't be countered by equally plausible explanations.
I can't prove they're not correct, of course. But they cannot prove they are. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 15 2003 : 02:33:42 AM
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| The only thing I don't buy is the "warriors returned to camp dressed in uniforms and riding in formation, 'evidence' for the 7th's supposed lunge piecemeal down the river" argument. I have not read much about this beyond warriors dressing up in uniforms and riding close together. Please cite the sources that they pulled a fast one on the non-combatants, and prove to me that the victims of the trick never found out it wasn't soldiers but their own warriors. And where on the field did this prank take place? In fact, I don't remember reading one recent piece of literature about the fight making any mention of soldiers lunging piecemeal down the river at any time. The move at MTC hasn't ever been portrayed a charge (outside of books and movies that also believe Gall overran Calhoun Hill while Crazy Horse circled around to the north and crushed Last Stand Hill defenders), neither was the possible move to the northern ford before the battalion fell apart. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 15 2003 : 11:23:34 AM
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| I would like to say this....Weibert recovered more than 9000 artifacts in the years they lived at the LBH, mostly shell casings. Jason Pitsch told me himself that he had recoverd at least 6000 shell casings in a six year period. We need to keep one thing in mind here....We will never know exactly what happened. We are all coming up with theories. Fox and Scott are basing their theories on the eveidence they have found. As far a the shell casings, the 45/70 casings and whole bullets that are considered "period" are Benet Primed shells, this particular shell was not manufactured after 1877. After 1877, shell casings were manufactured with external primers with head stamps. As far as Indian positions, we have recorded tesitimony by both Indian and Soldier. After all, it is the speculation and theories that keep the subject alive. The one thing we all know for sure is that Custer and the men of his immediate command that were with him were all killed.....The Cheyenne did the fighting, the Soux got the Credit, and the Crow got the land. I do not believe for one minute that the government "salted the fields".. There were however, reunions and re-enactments that did take place, but for the most part the things they left behind were from a more modern time period. |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 15 2003 : 11:33:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by timbrads
The Cheyenne did the fighting, the Soux got the Credit, and the Crow got the land.
Forgive my typing, I mispelled Sioux, maybe even some others, but not intentionally. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 15 2003 : 12:52:54 PM
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And WHERE precisely did Weibert recover 'more than 9000 artifacts' and Jason Pitsch recover 'at least 6000 shell casings?' Of the minimal 7501 casings, far more than recovered from LSH to Calhoun's, what were they? Gee, if they're all Springfields, and on the west of LBH, it sorta means Reno was in tough shape ammunition wise and justified in his retreat, I'd say. Oh right! The Indians had a dance and fired guns. Or any number of things. If they aren't Springfields, it still doesn't prove much.
Custer, Ryan, French had non-regulation rifles. Did any other officers? Probably. What about non-coms? Who knows? How were their casings credited to soldiers rather than Indians?
As to the Indians in formation temporarily fooling people, I don't know what edition of SOTMS you have, Crab, but all three episodes are in it: Weir, Bradley, and the Sioux.
Wooden Leg in that book and by Marquis says the field was littered with ammo that winter, and the Indians loaded up on it. That ammo was probably used for many years after. And it is to be doubted that the frontier army cast aside old ammo in favor of the new. Further, Godfrey says that they used rifle shells in the carbines, so whether the 'new' ammo made it into primary issue till some time after 1877 is iffy. In any case, ample time existed for new additions to the detritus. LaForge alone could have added substantially to it, since it was his self described playground. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 15 2003 : 1:40:40 PM
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| I can tell you for sure, that nearly all of the shell casings they were found by Weibert and Pitsch are US Govt Issue 45/70 and 45/55. Jasons finds were on his family propery. Both he and Weibert recovered artifacts from the valley floor. Weibert recovered many thinks from the retreat route. Yes, I agree, there would be most likely a lot of surplus ammo prior to 1877 and the army would continue to use it. It is likely that some of the shell casings were from a latter date. Fort Custer was established about 10 miles towards Hardin,and yes, I have seen some shell casings recovered from there also and there are some of the internal primed shells (prior to 1877 manufacturer). Everyone is entitled to their own conclusions. I have metal detected with permission many times in Virgina for Civil War artifacts and as much has been found over the last 40 years with metal detectors, still more comes all of the time. I have hunted sites that were considered exhausted, yet I still found bullets and buttons from uniforms. There will always be people who belive President Kennedy was not killed, that Elvis is still alive, etc. There was a battle and the Little Bighorn. Many shots were fired. Lives were lost on both sides, why would any one want to doubt the recovery of genuine artifacts from the battle? In the East, there were many years passed by after the Civil War before the artifacts really meant anything to people who owned the lands. I know of many a farmer who told me they would pick up bullets and artiller shells from their field s and tossed them aside. By the way there were other shell casings found to support other firearms, there were 50/70 Springfields, Sharps and others. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 15 2003 : 4:27:01 PM
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 Tim, welcome to the world of Dark Cloud, as in he renders a dark cloud over any forum in which he disagrees with folks like you. He'd rather question Weibert and Jason or call them liars or exagerators than get off his butt and do his own research. Isn't it much easier to just say, "Prove it," and let everyone else do his research for him. Your reply to him was very good, but he'll just want three forms of confirmation or authentiction before he believes anything, so don't knock yourself out trying to justify your findings and opinions to him. Let him do his own homework. |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 15 2003 : 11:06:59 PM
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DC: What I am questioning is the assumption that any movements by Indians playing soldier are misconstrued as actual soldier movements, not that they didn't happen. I know they happened, I've read about them. But I don't remember reading anything on the subject that left me feeling like soldier movements in Indian testimony were actually done by blue-clad warriors but never figured out to be a prank or misunderstanding. Chances are, after the joke was completed, the victims were ridiculed for being scared. Even if not, the accounts I've read on the subject seem to confirm that it was realized at some point that the "cavalry" were actually warriors. You catch my drift?
And you never answered my question: where did this prank take place? What "soldier movement" do you attribute to this bit of mistaken identity? The move to MTC was not it, and the move further north past Last Stand Hill, possibly towards the river, is documented in accounts. Warriors did say that early in the fight they lost track of the E & F battalion after it went behind a ridge, moving past LSH. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 16 2003 : 11:44:31 AM
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| Another item of interest. A couple of years ago I ran across an man who had some shell casings 45/70 and 50/70 that were picked up in the late 1880's or early 1900's. I do not know what part of the field, he found them in a trunk in an old Putnam Dye Box marked "picked up where Custer fell" His ancestor was a surveyor for the railroad. Just another example of early battlefield pickups. And one other, a Man from Texas named Jim Ryan sold a few artifacts picked in the early 20's at MTC, shell casings and lead projecties 45/70. He had also relic hunted with Hank Realbird at the same location and found other artifacts there. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 16 2003 : 11:44:36 AM
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I get your point, and of course I cannot disprove it, but what I'm saying is that Indians and their translators have difficulty with linear time. It is to be doubted that Indians said "Company Z and Q" did such and so at any point. They probably said something like "some soldiers" or "some soldiers in formation" went to thus and so.
We know that Indians mocked the dead soldiers by pretending to be them in uniforms and formation riding, and that they scared some of their own crossing the river back to camp. Isn't it at least possible that this is what some others saw and thought were living soldiers riding north? We know it happened; we don't know exactly when. We know time goes out the window in battle, and that these stories get confused and conflated, with the added deleterious feature of lousy, or lying, translation for any number of reasons.
Gall and others generally said, in years close to the battle, something like 'who the hell knows? I was pissed and angry and I rode around and killed a bloody bunch and I'm glad.' In later years, all these specifics of time and place appear along with specific identifications of enemy soldiers. This, from folks who slaughtered one of their own chiefs (that we know of...)in abject stupidity. They can ID Custer at fifty yards in memory fifty years later but Lame White Man at close quarters is a blank slate, or at least a Crow. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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pgb3
Private
Status: offline |
Posted - November 16 2003 : 3:28:45 PM
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| SOMS is a great book, one that stands the test of time for being interesting, stimulating and very entertaining ready about Custer and the LBH. Having noted that, it is a terrible source book for any serious battle buffs and students. It has great vignettes and totally sold me on pursuing this consuming hobby of mine, but I would never use it as a source of historical fact. Having said that, anyone who wants to know more about the battle should read Indian testimony, and work out its temporal placement for themselves. BTW, Tim McCoy was a respected officer and battle student himself, and did much to further interest and understanding of the battle for us all. You seem to reside on the negative side of the pop history slope so at least say hello to Mat Drudge for us when you see him. |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 16 2003 : 6:00:09 PM
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Custer was a respected officer as well but that he lied periodically is beyond dispute. Start with his Wa****a report or just compare the stories he tells in his books to his official reports or other outlets on the same happenings.
Things are either true or not, and I used SOTMS because Crab said it was his favorite book, and the items he said he'd never read were in it.
There is no such thing as 'pop' history as opposed to history, and Matt Drudge has nothing to do with either. He's a gossip, is all. Unless there was an Indian participant who spoke or wrote good English, there are NO first hand accounts of their activities. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 16 2003 : 6:13:12 PM
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Dark Cloud, Gall said he "was pissed"? I didn't know there was such a word in their language. Please refer me to a book, your authority for him saying he was pissed. I've looked through several books that I'm sure you've read, and nowhere can I find he said he was pissed. I know he was rather upset because he lost a couple wives and kids, but pissed? Really! |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 16 2003 : 8:17:49 PM
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Your summation of what I said is a bit truncated. I remember reading several things about Indians dressed as soldiers, but none of these accounts ever seemed to mention causing such a hubris that accounts were altered due to a misidentification. Men with Terry and Captain Weir both realized the "soldiers" they saw were warriors, as did DeRudio after calling out to "Tom Custer" and receiving fire.
I am guessing you think the possible 2nd move to the river by the left wing was the event that may have come from masquerading Indians scaring the non-combatants. But this may have happened, and it may not be the reason for the theory the 2nd move to the river. As I said, many accounts of where the left wing went early in the fight said they disappeared for a time after passing over a ridge, moving past Last Stand Hill. And this is highly documented since the Gray Horse Troop was involved, and they are oft-remembered in Indian accounts. And the timing of this move is also well documented, as warriors talked about being engaged with the soldiers around Calhoun Hill when the Gray Horse Troop continued north on Battle Ridge and then disappeared out of sight, behind a ridge. Warriors returning from the fight, scaring non-combatants would have done so well after Calhoun Hill fell and most likely after the fight was over. The soldiers disappearing in the north behind the ridge happened early in the fight. Also, many of the IDs of different companies have come from the fact that most of the horses in each company, if not all, were matched, and by the fact that it appears only certain companies acted as a body in certain areas. Warriors certainly didn't know Company C from Company E, but they did know a sorrel from a gray, and certainly could remember 40 soldiers all riding sorrels or bays or grays. |
I came. I saw. I took 300 pictures. |
Edited by - El Crab on November 16 2003 8:26:52 PM |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 16 2003 : 8:43:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by El Crab
Warriors certainly didn't know Company C from Company E, but they did know a sorrel from a gray, and certainly could remember 40 soldiers all riding sorrels or bays or grays.
Bravo! This was exactly my thoughts! |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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El Crab
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 17 2003 : 05:27:45 AM
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???
Maybe what? |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 17 2003 : 08:53:05 AM
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Maybe it happened as you say.
I don't know how Indians, in their conversations, referred to landmarks on the field. Soldiers and translators are always ready with helpful suggestions to twist testimony around to what was already assumed. Again: there is NO first hand Indian testimony; it is always through at least one other person and sometimes several, and mostly long after the battle.
What testimony exists indicates the field and air were covered with dust and smoke and nobody could see much of anything.
And Mr. Bodden, there is a reason I wrote 'something like.' But there is no reason Gall's famous 'my heart was bad' could not just as easily have been translated 'I was pissed' absent Victorian sensibilities. I'm always suspicious when plains Indians sound like Thomas Carlisle or Pitt the Elder or Thomas Grey at his most depressed, and I would hope that habit of suspicion becomes contagious. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Battlefield Artifacts and Findings
