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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - December 26 2004 : 12:46:00 PM
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Again, especially during this time of year Mr. Markland, you need to think of your family, because I agree with you. This is twice.
This is not a small thing, this "positively identified as having been involved in the battle." That's very, very sloppy writing and thinking by people. Because, bluntly, that cannot be done by any method.
But it is appearing in increasingly respected venues, like the History Channel and Discovery and in some books. And I'm not hearing loud caveats arising. Are you? That scares me some.
By the same duck resemblance that leads one to conclude that it was part of the battle, a weapon could also have been used to desecrate exposed bodies on the field six months later by Sioux with captured weapons, and the casings and bullets signify nothing whatsover about the battle. But look what is hypothesized and then patted into theory and somehow later becomes 'fact.'
Crab's posts are full of these manuevers that are based solely of guesswork derived from these cartridges and Indian stories third hand at best. Very weak and at great variance with the only first hand testimony we have: that of the soldiers on the 27th and 28th. They felt that there had been a crossing attempt and there'd been a fighting retreat to where they ended up and that only Calhoun and maybe Keogh were in an organized and well done defense. These were their peers and there is no damnation in their recorded thoughts. This is the only first hand info we have, and it's ignored when it conflicts with 'science.' All science has done is match casing to weapon. Where the weapon's been and who fired it when are unknown. |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 12:57:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
You don't get it, Wiggs. Nobody uses the word "factitious" in that sort of context unless they are trying to be affected. Same with "acidulous", and other pompous words you've scraped out of your dictionary. The word "gobbet" may mean roughly the same thing as "hunk," as in "hunk of steak," but only someone trying to be an ass actually uses it in place of the other.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 1:00:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
So what exactly did you do to qualify? According to Warlord, one only needs a BA to teach at a high school in California (which if true leaves me aghast), so what's it like in your place? And how did you even come to the attention of this high school? I'm curious.
What's the name of the murderer who killed a little girl and tried to kill you, a police officer? With a record like that, I'm surprised he got only life.
R. Larsen |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 1:03:27 PM
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"...because I agree with you. This is twice."
DC, ol' bud, you feeling ok? You have agreed twice? Sit down, take a deep breath and I am sure you will come to your senses soon.
Tongue definitely in cheek,
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 1:20:31 PM
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| I've been drinking constantly since Wednesday last, and it's possible I'm having delusions. For example, I thought KC won a football game yesterday. That's traditionally the last step before elephants in tutus serve you peanuts. Oh, wait........ |
Dark Cloud
copyright RL MacLeod
darkcloud@darkendeavors.com
www.darkendeavors.com
www.boulderlout.com |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 2:05:04 PM
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Billy, I believe it was a post by Warlord where the 29 carbines were mentioned. He didn't say how they were postively identified.
I believe there were only two Henrys in the Fetterman fight both owned by civilians. Do you know of others? Seems early for many of them to have gotten to the frontier. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 2:27:39 PM
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Prolar, thanks. Yes, there were two known Henrys on the battlefield, those of Wheatley and Fischer. However, it is possible that one or two Indians may have had them as they had been attacking anything that moved over the Bozeman Trail since early summer and I am sure some weapons fell into their hands. Whether any were Henrys, I know not. Henrys were expensive but many going into the gold fields did equip themselves with the most modern firearms available.
I did some quick digging regarding the Henry. From this site:
http://www.civilwar.si.edu/weapons_henry.html
we learn that about 14,000 were made between 1860 and 1866 by the New Haven Arms Co. and that only 1,731 were purchased by the U.S. Ordnance Dept. for government use. However, during the Civil War, many volunteer organizations "...carried Henry rifles, purchased at their own expense."
So it is conceivable that a slain emmigrant, trapper, or scout may have carried one which may have fallen into Indian hands.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 26 2004 : 3:12:59 PM
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The Indians don't seem to have had many firearms on the field; it was the fort surgeon's opinion that only six of the eighty men with Fetterman were killed by bullets. If there were any Henrys with the Indians, probably no more than the couple the soldiers had.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2004 : 02:28:00 AM
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I'm talking about your claim that a person doesn't have to have those 20 units or so to teach high school. Nobody needs to be a rocket scientist; just competent. 300 course hours of training on how to be a teacher seems a lot better --- a lot better --- than just penciling in an exam, though I'll grant that just because you pass through those required courses doesn't mean you're actually fit to teach.
I have a BA, and shortly a JD, unless I get hit by a bus. I don't claim that background to give me any special insight into anything we talk about here, which is why I've never made a point of it before, and doubt I will again. I'm puzzled, though, why you and Wiggs constantly trumpet your alleged backgrounds, as though it does give you some special insight, negating the need for any actual evidence. Witness Wiggs's recent posting of his adventure with the child-killer, which allowed him to see just how right Fox and Scott are. I know it's proof of my idiocy that I just don't see the connection. Maybe I'm not the only idiot. I suspect not, since an argument is only as good as the evidence you have in support of it, and as far as evidence goes, your alleged military experience and Wiggs's alleged police work/high school teaching aren't worth a bean so far as anything related to the Little Bighorn is concerned. Mutual respect might best be gained by cutting off all this tiresome crap and sticking straight to what documents, interviews, and testimony has survived, instead of trying to win an unearned authority by making easily-made claims on an internet message board.
R. Larsen |
Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on December 27 2004 03:31:43 AM |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2004 : 1:24:22 PM
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| Does anyone, besides me, wonder why D.c., and Larsen are so fascinated with me? I have never had so much attention devoted to me in all my life. Thanks fellas! |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 27 2004 : 4:05:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
Prolar, thanks. Yes, there were two known Henrys on the battlefield, those of Wheatley and Fischer.
This is a very interesting question. And, it made me wonder about what happened to Wheatley and Fischer's Henrys during and after the battle. If I were an Indian warrior, who witnessed the power from these guns at the Fetterman Battle, I'd want one.
So, once those two white men are dead, a warrior or warriors pick up those guns for themselves. 10 years later, their sons have inherited those powerful weapons and use them against the bluecoats along the Greasy Grass.
I think checking Henry cartridges found at LBH with any found at Fetterman would be an outstanding idea.
Merry Christmas...
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Warmest Regards,
Bob
www.vonsworks.com
www.friendslittlebighorn.com
www.friendsnezpercebattlefields.org |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 03:19:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
That someone in California only needed to have a BA and take a test in order to qualify to teach high school was news to me, and I don't feel any shame saying it. If it's common knowledge (and I don't think it is) then obviously I was kept out of the loop. I thought you needed to take about 20 units of teaching instruction in order to earn a credential, about 300 hours of total class-time, which has my respect. At the very least, investing that amount of time shows real dedication on the part of the person wishing to teach. Taking a mere test to get it reeks of dilettantism. I see you shouting and raving in various exclamation points, but do you have actual proof that a BA and a test is all you need to stick your feet in through the doors of California high schools? If this is real I think it's something that ought to be changed. Inflicting subpar teachers on this country's youth is, truly, a form of self-immolation.
I don't find your claims to military intelligence, or Wiggs's to policework or high school instruction, credible at all. If you don't want to believe me either, that's fine. I don't expect anyone to or care. I've known cops and soldiers, and none of them have ever lied to me, or without provocation slandered and smeared others (like you did to Bhist and Rich). I think you're a fake, a poseur, and a coward, a weakling whose one small thrill in life is screaming at people from behind the safety of a computer screen. It doesn't look like you know much of anything about the battle of the Little Bighorn, or Custer, or the Plains Indians, or anything pertinent. In this Wiggs has an advantage on you, since at times he has contributed accurate and useful information. It's just too bad he hasn't done it more consistently.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 03:22:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhist
[brI think checking Henry cartridges found at LBH with any found at Fetterman would be an outstanding idea.
J.W. Vaughn metal detectored the area where Wheatley and Fisher fought and didn't find any; in fact, he barely found anything: just three smashed bullets and a button. I don't know what luck later searchers have had. I think there were some archaeological digs at the Fetterman battlefield not too long ago, but I don't know any details.
R. Larsen |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 04:19:25 AM
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Rather than listen to the arguing any longer, I did some digging. The State of California has a nice web site featuring all kinds of interesting links to their educational requirments for teachers of various types. The only one I see meeting WL's description is for a "Emergency 30 Day Substitute Teaching Permit" which has for its credential requirmentes:
1) Hold a baccalaureate or higher degree from a regionally- accredited college or university.
2) Pass the California Basic Educational Skills Test (CBEST).
Holders of single-subject teaching degrees or multiple-subject teaching degrees have a much higher standard, i.e., many hours of instruction in their specialist fields in addition to the precondition coursework.
Vocational Arts substitute teachers must have a high school diploma or GED and 5 years work experience in the chosen field. Educational experience can be substituted for some part of the work experience. The permit for Vocational Arts substitute teachers is issued for one year and for subsequent reissue, the applicant must have fulfilled 30 clock hours of professional growth (don't ask me what that is!) since the reissue date of thelast reissue.
The web site can be found at:
http://www.ca.gov/state/portal/myca_homepage.jsp
Click on the Education link at the top of the left-side sidebar.
Another site from the main page where I picked up the information:
http://www.ctc.ca.gov/credentialinfo/credinfo.html
Now can we get back to the Custer worship portion of the program?
Respectfully,
Billy |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 04:30:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJMarkland
The only one I see meeting WL's description is for a "Emergency 30 Day Substitute Teaching Permit" which has for its credential requirmentes:
1) Hold a baccalaureate or higher degree from a regionally- accredited college or university.
2) Pass the California Basic Educational Skills Test (CBEST).
That something like this is allowed --- no, apparently needed --- does much to explain to anyone why California ranks somewhere near Mississippi on the nation's educational rankings. Thanks for locating this.
R. Larsen |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 06:34:38 AM
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"That something like this is allowed --- no, apparently needed --- does much to explain to anyone why California ranks somewhere near Mississippi on the nation's educational rankings. "
Not necessarily. Here in Kansas, the teacher must have lesson plans for the week already made up, thus, if absent, the substitute can follow the lesson plan. Most school districts in the country follow something like that requirement. Now, having said that, it is a given that in most advanced high school courses, the substitute will find themselves mainly guiding a review of past lessons, giving homework/reading assignments and preventing the kids from running wild. That is with the assumption that the substitute is not a specialist teacher in the subject matter being taught. I think most of us can remember when we had substitute teachers in high school.
Best of wishes for a Happy New Year,
Billy |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 28 2004 : 10:28:17 PM
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"larson: Once again you parade your immaturity and lack of education. What a laugh someone from Kansas has to tell you (a supposed California law school student) about the California educational system! Actually, whatever goes on in CA. High School..."
WL, to get on my baddest side, keep on implying that I am from Kansas! I live in Kansas, pay taxes (unwillingly) in that state, but I am FROM North Carolina and if you wish to make something of it, please IM me so I can set you straight!
Now, if the two of you were not so busy one-upping the other, you would have done the same as I did, i.e., go to www.google.com and typed, in the "search field", the words (including quotation marks) & symbol, "California+Education". You would have found the same as I did. It wasn't bloody rocket science.
Now as far as veracity is concerned, quite honestly I will back the Larsen horse. He may be a pain in the ass because he demands sources for the "out of left field" comments received but he is consistent in requesting it of everyone, not just you or Wiggs.
Since your immediate come-back to Larsen or DC is that they are uneducated, I wish you to know that I have only a high school education. That must make me, in your opinion, uneducated as hell...hmmm, perhaps it just makes me less smooth in calling a "focker" a "focker". Prove to me, that if you want to learn, having a bunch of letters after your name makes you smarter.
WL, are you reverting back to Mr. Hyde?
Happy New Year bucky!
Billy |
Edited by - BJMarkland on December 28 2004 10:53:54 PM |
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bhist
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2004 : 10:07:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
larson: Once again you parade your immaturity and lack of education. What a laugh someone from Kansas has to tell you (a supposed California law school student) about the California educational system! Actually, whatever goes on in CA. High Schools, California is ranked 15 in number of college graduates compared with Miss. 45th position. Not that I personally think that Miss. education system is all that bad. You, Sir are an ignorant kid! You also call up questionable quotes just like DC!
Only 15 in the number of college graduates? If what you report is accurate (and I feel free to doubt) then that is pretty damning, since California is by far the largest state in the union. Not that you'd notice, since I don't think you really know what you post. You seem to more enjoy sharing your personal psychoses with everyone than accurate historical information, and though amusing at first, chronic mental instability never turns out funny.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2004 : 10:10:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I'd like one (1) example of a questionable quote from me. One.
You mean you haven't been using the back of a video game box for documentation?
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2004 : 2:31:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Larsen: Once again I call on you to provide documentation as to your supposed education! Comon alleged law student, lets see it!!!
Sorry Warlord, you're just going to have to content yourself with what I said, to believe or not. I never came here to trade stories about my offline life, and I won't invite into it a psychopath to harass those I know. If not contented you'll just have to stew, beg, and degrade yourself further with exclamation-pointed wailing, which shall have amusement value, if none other. I'm skeptical, as a rule, of all claims of background (jaundiced by early internet experience) and don't need to hear it from you, nor do I think that anybody but you really cared about me. It's usually used as a cheap way to earn respect, by those who can't contribute anything otherwise (such as yourself) who somehow want others to think that their alleged military experience, in a modern world with telephones, tanks, and plastic tutus, contributes any insight at all into a different century, an extinct military branch, and an enemy that vanished into alcoholism and government control decades ago. The result we're bequeathed are fairy tales such as your 1,320 Indian dead suffocating the grass on Custer's battlefield.
Everybody here (except maybe for Wiggs, and to be fair to him I don't know what he thinks) regards you as a fool, an opinion carved into stone by the mental wasteland of your 200-some postings. You haven't contributed anything on-topic (we won't count Custer video games), and not much of anything off-topic either, unless there's a constituency other than yourself that's really big on homoerotic obsessions with male genitalia, though I think I speak for all when I say that none of us needed to know that your imagination dwelt so often on mine or Hitler's. I hope you're a big man on those gamesites your frequent, because here your fear of debate and pervasive cowardice only invite scorn and ridicule.
R. Larsen |
Edited by - Anonymous Poster8169 on December 29 2004 3:30:10 PM |
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Heavyrunner
Captain
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2004 : 7:24:43 PM
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Larson,
While not getting involved in the "discussion" here, I am going to disagree with your opinion that tribes have disappeared into alcoholism and government control.
Sadly, it's taken casinos to remind the country, but tribes have not only persevered, but generally grown in numbers and many are finding considerable prosperity. Most, at the same time, have long since shed BIA programs and influence and moved on to self-governance. Perhaps this is a topic for another thread or another day, but I felt something should be written.
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Bob Bostwick |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 29 2004 : 8:00:26 PM
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I don't disagree. I had in mind the tribes of roving villages, chasing the buffalo herd, wintering out in teepees, living off what nature gave them, and dying if it didn't. Those people, and that way of life, are as dead as the horse cavalry.
R. Larsen |
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Anonymous Poster8169
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - December 30 2004 : 03:06:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
Larsen: Your pathetic diatribe about being unable to furnish any background on yourself brands you as a major liar! 470 posts of screaming for citations and no significant contributions shows how lacking you are in credibility! The only fairytales of casualties at LBH are the fantasies you and others believe about a massacre of 200 some well armed soliers who could only kill thirty indians! FOOL!
I accept no criticism from a little kid (and thats what you are) pretending to be a law school student. You don't have the brains for it!!!
"Homoerotic" is that the kind of guy you are?
Don't try to talk about debate because you never contributed anything worthwhile in 470 posts.
You are just a kid trying to be a man! Once again I ask you to supply substantiation of any kind of higher education or experience!!! You don't have it boy! And thats not all you don't have!
Asking you to judge what's "worthwhile" is like asking cabbage to tell you what color it is.
Sources for the death figures of 1,320? Zippo. Zero. Zilch. As we expected from the caps-hound Warlord. Well done. Shows real initiative, absolutely without peer. Most other people would have been lazy and at least provided some evidence, but you've got them beat with your style of crazy-assertion-followed-by-panicked-screaming-and-testicle-fantasizing.
30 dead Indians? Little Knife, Crow King, Low Dog, Pretty White Buffalo, Horn Chips, Fluing Hawk, Lone Bear, Charlie Corn, He Dog, White Bull, Big Head Woman, Wooden Leg, One Bull. Richard Hardorff has been nice enough to print a chart of all their numbers on pg 154 of "Hokahey". Their full interviews are scattered here and there.
I'm not sure I accept the figure of 30 that Hardorff finds pretty conclusive; the real number might have been a bit higher, though in view of all the evidence I don't see how it could have been by much. Two dead ponies are all that Benteen saw on the field.... two dead Indian ponies. With 70 dead cavalry horses spread around. Quite remarkable considering the pogrom that you'd have us believe took place among the Indians.
I'm afraid you don't have a choice as to who you'll accept criticism from. You'll either be criticized or you won't. If you're as old as you claim you should have learned that by now. Your stamping that you "won't accept" criticism is rather pathetic, since to my knowledge you haven't yet done anything on this board not deserving of criticism. If you have it got buried among your PMS-ish ravings at Bhist and Rich and whomever else has intimidated you. The bottom line is that you're too afraid to debate, which is why I know you won't reply at all with any evidence refuting what I've just said about the Indian fatalities. You'll just scream like a lunatic and hope no one notices that you know nothing.
R. Larsen
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Weir Point -- Before & After
