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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - November 18 2003 : 5:43:49 PM
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Hey, anyone for discussion on the Battle at the Rosebud? Most people never go there when they visit Little Big Horn Battlefield. It is a great place to spend a day. A very serene atmospher!
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Rich
Commander-in-Chief
USA
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Posted - November 18 2003 : 7:16:18 PM
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I was there, in '87, and spent a few hours ... beautiful place.
To me, Crook's failure to send messengers, in a timely fashion, to the other columns in the field is one of the key factors behind the disaster on June 25. At the very least, had he sent a courier to Terry - and Custer still managed the battle as he did - we could say - without hesitation - Custer fought a bad fight. I feel he might have altered his entire strategy if he had only known; or at least have had a fair opportunity to do so! |
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timbrads
Corporal
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 18 2003 : 9:36:19 PM
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| I agree Rich. Man The Rosebud was a close call. Even on horseback, from what I could visualize, it was a running fight for the most part, from hill too hill...I guess Crook was fortunate to be able to regroup his command. If Crazy Horse would have had more warriors on hand, that could have been the last stand. But is was sloppy the way he left the field....and spent the next few weeks like he was on vacation....fly fishing....just think of the valuable intelligence that was not shared with the other commands. Anyway, I have made it part of my regular visit to the area when I get a chance to go. This past summer, I took my Dad with me, he was only able to hike as far as Crooks Hill, I really wanted to be able to take him on up to Conical Hill, but the view shed from Crooks is very nice and you can get the lay of the battlefield. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - May 28 2004 : 8:54:17 PM
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| Rich I too agree, the Battle of the Rosebud was the first time the Native Americans stood up against the might of a U.S. Army. Despite the media blitz of the 50's and 60's that depicted the Redman charging in wave after wave of suicide charges, they wisely chose to fight differently; with stealth and caution. Due to the great gathering of Plains and Cheyenne Indians, exceeding the size of any prior group gatheing, they were now in a position to do more to defend themselves. Alerted by scouts of the nearness of Crook's army, the warriors rushed out to meet him rather than allow the soldiers to get to close to a camp occupied by so many women and children. If Custer and Terry had been made were aware of Crook's defeat, the battle of the Big Horn may never have happened. To be sure, a battle eventually would have occurred, but at a different location with different results. |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
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Posted - May 29 2004 : 07:40:02 AM
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| I agree too. Rosebud is one of the "circumstances" I have in my mind when I use this general word to explain what happened 25 june 1876. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
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Posted - May 30 2004 : 8:47:08 PM
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| You are right Lorenzo, every man who fell that day believed in his Country, his culture, and his right to live as they chose. Redman or White, they all died for an equally just cause. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 25 2004 : 10:17:42 PM
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| I have often wondered why Gen. Crook made no effort to report the results of this battle to others, or did he? He was the third prong of a military offensive designed to punish the Indians once and for all. I have not had an opportunity to delve into this area in research. Can anyone on the forum offer additional information regarding this failure? |
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lorenzo G.
Captain
Italy
Status: offline |
Posted - June 26 2004 : 9:23:50 PM
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One letter of Libbie to his husband report of Rosebud:"papers told last night of a small skirmish between General Crook and the indians. They called it a fight. The indians were very bold. They don't seem afraid of nothing." This important letter, dated june 1876, never reached Custer. The skipper of Far West
put it into a mail sack with all other letters. The mail sack "was recovered with grappling hooks and its content dried before being sent on with experienced seamen in a stouterboat." This letter came back to Elizabeth unopened. |
If it is to be my lot to fall in the service of my country and my country's rights I will have no regrets.
Custer |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - June 27 2004 : 3:18:55 PM
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| Thanks Lorenzo for this information, I had no idea that Libbie sent the General a letter regarding this. One can not but wonder what may have happened had General Custer received the letter prior to his battle. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - July 09 2004 : 01:27:00 AM
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 Lorenzo, I'd never heard of the letter Libbie sent to GAC regarding Crook's defeat at the Rosebud. I'm surprised she could've heard about it, since it took place on June 17th, I think it was, and after getting whipped, Crook hightailed it to Goose Creek, where he stayed and killed many a fish, all the while never attempting to make contact with Custer or Terry. I don't know how long it took the folks back at Ft. A. Lincoln to hear about the Rosebud fight, but I doubt it could've made it back to them before June 25th and Libbie have had time to find out and write a letter and get it on the boat back to Montana. I'm just curious where you read this story about Libbie's letter. I'd like to read it. I'm not doubting you; I'd just never heard of it.
As to the Rosebud itself, yes it is one of the more pristine battlefields in the west. I've been there three times, the last time being about two weeks ago, and I'll be going back there in mid August. From everything I've heard and read, I don't think Crook attemted to make contact with Custer or Terry. He tucked his tail in and ran back to the present day Sheridan area. I continue to lay a large amount of the blame for Custer's defeat on Crook. The reason being, it was about a two day march back to Goose Creek. He could've sent word out immediately to Custer and Terry that he wouldn't be joining them. But he didn't. I would think he could've taken care of his wounded, divvied up the remaining supplies, ammo, and taken what able-bodied men he could and march up to the valley of the LBH. But he didn't do any of this. He went fishing. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - July 10 2004 : 9:38:50 PM
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| I agree, had Custer know of this battle I don't think he would have divided his force. I have not spent a lot of time reading of this battle yet but, thanks to the forum, I certainly will. |
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hawkspar
Recruit
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2004 : 10:57:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by frankboddn
I don't think Crook attemted to make contact with Custer or Terry. He tucked his tail in and ran back to the present day Sheridan area.
Hello! I just found this forum and would you believe I only just flew back to the UK from Wyoming/Montana having had the wonderful experience of riding across the Rosebud Battlefield with Native guides.
They all thought it was quite funny that he went fishing *grin*
But they also said that Crook did get a message out, but it took so long for the message to reach those it affected, that the Little Big Horn Battle had wiped out Custer and his men before the message got anywhere near them.
This aside, he could have rallied and continued on instead of retreating to fish.
ps It's a lovely little spot where he went fishing... |
"The avalanche has begun. It is to late for the pebbles to vote." |
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prolar
Major
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2004 : 8:49:37 PM
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| Frankboddn: I just noticed that you never received a reply to your inquiry about Libby's letter. The source for Lorenzo's story is The Custer Story, a collection of letters between Custer and Libby, edited by Marguerite Merrington. Libby's letter with the mention of Crook's fight isn't dated but it never reached Custer, so I asume it could have been sent anytime before word of his death. |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 26 2004 : 9:25:40 PM
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| Hawkspar, your Native guides knew what they were talking about. After the battle, Crook remained in his base camp for over a month. An estimated fifteen thousand trout were caught by his troopers during this time. Hundreds of deer, elk, and mountain sheep were hunted also. It almost sounds like a grand picnic was had by all. |
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BJMarkland
Colonel
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - September 28 2004 : 6:15:44 PM
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...the Battle of the Rosebud was the first time the Native Americans stood up against the might of a U.S. Army.
Not exactly.
Fallen Timbers, Point Pleasant, St. Claire's defeat. I am missing several others but those off the top of my head I can defend. Perhaps the weakest to defend would be Point Pleasant where the Shawnee b****-slapped the Kentucky, Tennessee, and Virginia militia. But, Fallen Timbers and St. Claire's route were against forces composed largely of regular U.S. troops (although if the militia had not broken, St. Claire may not have been defeated or routed so thoroughly.) Also, I seem to recall some battle with the strange name of Tippecanoe as well as a war against some small Indian tribe known as the Seminoles.
Best of wishes,
Billy |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - September 29 2004 : 9:41:53 PM
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| I stand corrected. I was actually thinking of the Plains Indians when I made that statement, but I should have said so. The Seminoles did much to garner fear and respect from their opponents, as did many other Indian Nations. |
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frankboddn
Major
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - October 31 2004 : 12:28:20 PM
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Prolar, thanks for the info on Libbie's letter. I was back out there in August. I took a tour with Dr. Rich Fox and some guys I'd met online, and after our tour, I took another friend to the Rosebud. I asked Fox and the others why Crook never got a message to Custer. They seemed to think that even if he tried to send a messenger, they didn't know exactly where Custer was, and with the very broken terrain, it would have been like looking for a needle in a haystack. I don't buy that. Crook had Shoshone scouts and other NA with him and people who knew the territory, and they knew Custer was heading over the vallies of the Rosebud and LBH, so why couldn't they have found them?
On another subject, while my friend and I were at the Rosebud, we saw a film crew and a young Lakota walking around the field. We had to know what it was about. We asked them, and they were filming a short film documentary for a school and using this young (22-25ish) Lakota as their source. The Lakota told us that when Crook left the field, he limped away with only 57 survivors. We thought he meant 57 dead, but he said their oral histories say 57 survivors. We just kind of nodded, thanked them for their time and apologized for interruting and headed for the Kirby Saloon for a couple of beers and cheeseburgers. |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - January 28 2005 : 5:02:10 PM
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July - August 1865.
A similar strategy was tried against the Sioux,three columns of volunteer cavalry under Brigadier-General Patrick E.Connor,Colonel Nelson Cole and Lieutenant-Colonel Samuel Walker had attempted to crush the Sioux between them.
They had nearly 3,000 cavalry,but the campaign was an utter fiasco.
The numbers of warriors was between 5,000-8,000 at least half of them on the Powder River,and as at the LBH the army did not expect to meet this number. |
wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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hunkpapa7
Lieutenant
United Kingdom
Status: offline |
Posted - January 28 2005 : 5:12:34 PM
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At the same time, a new gold field was discovered in Montana. The most direct route to this new gold field was by way of the Oregon Trail to Fort Laramie, and then from Fort Laramie north, through the "Powder River" country. In 1865, a campaign against the "hostiles," known as the Powder River Expedition,got under way with a force of 2,500 men, directed by General Connor. Three columns were to converge in Powder River country, one from Omaha and one going directly north from Fort Laramie. The third, under Connor, marched about 100 miles up the Platte from the fort, then north to the headwaters of the Powder, where Camp Connor was established. Descending the Powder, General Connor destroyed a village of harmless Arapahoe, the only Indians he could find. The other columns barely escaped starvation and massacre by the Sioux. The expedition straggled back to Fort Laramie, the crowning failure of a dismal year for the U. S. Army.
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wev'e caught them napping boys
Aye Right ! |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 04 2005 : 8:35:04 PM
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| A three prong attack against a highly, mobile foe that failed. Where have we heard of that before? This lends credence to my theory that certain tactics, to battle the Native American, were established prior to Custer's battle. Thank you. |
Edited by - joseph wiggs on February 04 2005 8:36:50 PM |
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Dark Cloud
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
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joseph wiggs
Brigadier General
Status: offline |
Posted - February 06 2005 : 1:19:34 PM
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No one, I never said nor implied that it was so. Are you O.K.
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Battle of Rosebud
