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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
 Posted - November 28 2009 : 7:16:18 PM
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Poll Question:
Who was actually responsible for Weir's response to Weir's Point?
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 28 2009 : 7:42:17 PM
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| Although Reno stated, under sworn testimony, that he ordered the excursion to Weir's Point to investigated the status of Custer; he emphatically did not! |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 28 2009 : 9:06:22 PM
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Well, I would contend, (which ahem... someone  once said that I never did do), that you preclude the point to which Weir was sent was "Weir Peak". Was Weir Peak ever mentioned as the place he had been (sent/ordered/went) to, or was it the presumed place based upon what evidence? In other words, who said that was the place he went to? |
Edited by - Benteen on November 28 2009 9:07:31 PM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - November 29 2009 : 02:12:49 AM
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However, understanding that, the place to which Weir went, didn't directly address the "intent" of the origional question in mind; that being whether Reno and/or Benteen ordered Weir, or Weir upon "his own hook" undertook such a mission.
Of those choices, that would have depended upon whether or not Reno was capable of giving such an order or not. And from the looks of it, and his "for gods sakes" panic attack statement to Benteen, there did seem to be at least a momentary lapse in sensibility let alone duty.
From other current ongoing discussions it is known that Reno's greatest incurred casualties occurred when he retreated, which in and of itself does not explain why he did that also. Which by all accounts seems to have been an improper recourse to the events which surrounded him. And according to Reno's orders as we now understand them, this indeed would have been the time to have "charged" the indians, as Custer anticipated, but not towards Reno Hill as Reno supposedly did. Indeed Reno Charged, just as Custer told him to do, but he "charged" to the rear, not to the "sound of Custer's guns" as Custer had directed him to do.
There are of course the peripheral issues, the bloody knife incident, the mount, dismount, mount incident, and of course the one where he throws his pistol at an indian.
Of course one supposes that in the heat of battle, Major's do major bobbles time after time, and perhaps even forgets whether or not a courier may have been sent to him with instructions to effect a junction or some such language, not that it would have mattered anyway, right?
But the most glaring one appears to be not letting Benteen continue on with his mission, but instead to "for gods sakes help him" there to stave off attacks by how many indians? Which wasn't the first time that happened either, but we wont dredge that one up again just now.
Most, of course do not blame Benteen for this unfortunate incident, after all, he just happened upon this tragic scene, and certainly couldn't be held accountable, could he, if he failed to carry out any of the orders Custer had given him that day?
There of course was the ever present need to point the finger at those who could not defend themselves. Indeed, Benteen's "own hook" reference to Weir's actions have led many to believe just what he wanted them to believe, but was it right?
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Edited by - Benteen on November 29 2009 02:27:17 AM |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 29 2009 : 11:58:34 AM
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There were no orders that required Benteen to go anywhere except toward the Big Village. Circumstances had changed since the writing of the note that Martin carried requiring officer's to make decisions. That's what they are taught and expected to do.
Custer was not waiting in a fixed preplanned location for the pack train. Since it could not move as fast as Custer why would anyone think that the pack train could have ended up on the Custer battlefield under control of anyone but the Indians?
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“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 29 2009 : 3:50:34 PM
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Benteen, I believe (not absolutely) certain that Weir went towards the "sound of firing" thus, arriving at the hill top known as Weir's Point. In fact, according to Benteen, reno utilized a trumpeter to "assiduously" blow "recall" for the Captain who refused to do so.
I believe Weir Point to be the closest promontory that enabled them to see Custer's battlefield. weir was followed by Benteen, who was subsequently followed by the remaining troopers.
Reno would later testify that he sent these men to discover the condition and location off Custer's command when, in reality, no such thing occurred. this was no military assignment issued by the commander, it was dis-orderly, straggle of military units in a non-military fashion.
You are right,Reno was so mentally discombobulated that he couldn't order his hand to shake; it do on its own accord. It is his unmitigated gall threes years later to claim credit for an organized, military thrust to locate Custer that fascinates me. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 29 2009 : 4:18:32 PM
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AZ, How can you (or anyone else for that matter) possibly know what orders were or were not issued by Custer? That is the unique problem discerning what happened that resulted in the battle playing out like it did; the erroneous assumption that Custer had no plans nor, did he issue any orders other than the "Come On" to Benteen
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Just as I can not prove that other orders were given, you can not prove that they weren't. If you place your total faith in the R.C.O.I, then you believe that the partially deaf Godfrey and a host of others heard "Volley" firing coming from the north while Benteen, Reno, And Wallace did not.
Custer's "fixed, preplanned location" encompassed approximately four miles north and, additional acreage west to the Big Horn River. So his position was not so fixed as you perceive.
Once the enemy was located, the safety of the entire pack train was not essential. Prior to locating the Village, the need to ensure the safety of the packs that were designed to carry food and necessities for a possible 15 day march, to include ammo, was critical. A guard had to assigned to protect these necessities.
Once the village was located, quickness was now essential. At that point, only the delivery of the ammo and the extra personnel was needed. Thus, the ammo packs could be quickly separated from the other packs and hurried to Custer in a much quicker fashion then trying to rush them all forward.
The memo by Cooke was meant to say "ammunition" packs. In his excitement and rush, he realized the important word was left out. His mind still running faster than his ability to write, he "PS'ed" to rectify the mistake making, however, the same one again.
I have said this before and I will continue to do so when I express the following: About to meet hundreds of ferocious warriors, why would Custer demand beans and sheets? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - November 30 2009 : 09:22:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
AZ, How can you (or anyone else for that matter) possibly know what orders were or were not issued by Custer? That is the unique problem discerning what happened that resulted in the battle playing out like it did; the erroneous assumption that Custer had no plans nor, did he issue any orders other than the "Come On" to Benteen.
The only method of communication once the Benteen moved several miles on his recon in force mission is by horseback. There is testimony and the written note carried by Martin. Kanipe claims to have also brought a message to Benteen and the pack train. They both testified to extent of their delivered messages. There may have been others sent that were killed but we don't know that.
More importantly is that Custer could not have known enough detail to form a plan other than moving to contact. Unless one believes that Benteen was sent on a wild goose chase to keep him from crossing the river at the same time as Reno then Custer was in a recon in force mode. What convinces me of that is that Custer did not send Martin to Benteen at the same time he sent Reno in Reno Creek. If Benteen had received a message that much earlier he would have potentially arrived when Reno was still in the valley. Since Martin stated they watered for 10 minutes before leaving Reno Creek how much sooner could Benteen have been notified?
Just as I can not prove that other orders were given, you can not prove that they weren't. If you place your total faith in the R.C.O.I, then you believe that the partially deaf Godfrey and a host of others heard "Volley" firing coming from the north while Benteen, Reno, And Wallace did not.
Have you heard gun fire from miles away. Exactly how loud is it. Does it require not to be engaged in talking or mentally focused. I believe it is possible that those sitting around and tying to figure out what is going on could hear volley's while those giving orders and mentally engaged in another activity did not hear the volleys.
As a former police officer have you ever heard an officer testify that he could not hear his own firearm discharge? I talked with an officer that stated he could recall the brass hitting the floor but not the discharge of his weapon.
Custer's "fixed, preplanned location" encompassed approximately four miles north and, additional acreage west to the Big Horn River. So his position was not so fixed as you perceive.
I did not state there was any fixed location because that would require a plan. If you reread Rosser's first letter he assumed there would be one if there was a plan and either were repulsed. My point was that the pack train had problems and at best would move slow. How could Custer expect the pack train miles behind to catch up in a timely manner considering he moved off at a gallop.
Once the enemy was located, the safety of the entire pack train was not essential. Prior to locating the Village, the need to ensure the safety of the packs that were designed to carry food and necessities for a possible 15 day march, to include ammo, was critical. A guard had to assigned to protect these necessities.
Once the village was located, quickness was now essential. At that point, only the delivery of the ammo and the extra personnel was needed. Thus, the ammo packs could be quickly separated from the other packs and hurried to Custer in a much quicker fashion then trying to rush them all forward.
There were more troopers with the pack then Benteen had with him. So do you think Custer didn't need more troops? Since Weir was repulsed with a full company how many more troopers would you think it would take to get mules carrying ammunition and moving at the trot across MTC?
The memo by Cooke was meant to say "ammunition" packs. In his excitement and rush, he realized the important word was left out. His mind still running faster than his ability to write, he "PS'ed" to rectify the mistake making, however, the same one again.
At the time they had not used any significant amount of ammunition. Reno had used a lot more in the valley. Was Custer going to abandoned Reno and leave him in the valley with no ammunition?
The note was to Benteen and I believe it only meant to have the ammunition available to whomever might need it except for warriors. If there had been a HQ position with oversight of the whole battle I would expect the packtrain close to be in that oversight position. No trotting around the Custer battlefield where it would be supplying the warriors with ammunition.
I have said this before and I will continue to do so when I express the following: About to meet hundreds of ferocious warriors, why would Custer demand beans and sheets?
There was a large number of troopers with the pack train. The ammunition could not be moved forward without a large number of troopers. Weir with one company was repulsed and returned faster than the ammunition mules could move. If Weir had the ammunition mules when he retreated he would left them with the Indians. So the question is how many troopers would it take to get ammunition across MTC. Apparently the survivors believed it would take more than 7 companies.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 05 2009 : 9:50:16 PM
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I'm not going to bore the forum with a tick for tack response to your undulation of information. What I will address is this, a Sgt. Major was sent to Benteen with information. How do I know this? Because Custer would not have sent a veteran non-commissioned officer unless the information sent was critical.
Secondly, your inability to comprehend the salient fact that the ammunition packs could be easily cut loose from the regular packs and rushed forward to Custer is bizarre. As there was no longer a fear that the warriors would attack the train (remember they were busy chasing Reno and confronting Custer's approach) most of the accompanying soldiers could have responded also.
The survivors, for the most part, were convulsed and shuttering with panic having nearly lost their lives due to Reno's atrocious leadership. Their opinions were permeated with the realization that they cowered on a hill while Custer's command was wiped out. Their opinion that it would take more than 7 companies is based upon their inability to muster and relieve their fellow soldiers. How much value should be allocated to such an opinion? |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2009 : 09:27:57 AM
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| It's obvious to me you have never led a pack mule. Custer continued moving away at a faster rate then the ammuntion pack mules could travel. Was this a game of catch me if you can? The only way for the ammunition mules to catch Custer is for him to stop before MTC. |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 14 2009 : 09:35:33 AM
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The survivors, for the most part, were convulsed and shuttering with panic having nearly lost their lives due to Reno's atrocious leadership. Their opinions were permeated with the realization that they cowered on a hill while Custer's command was wiped out. Their opinion that it would take more than 7 companies is based upon their inability to muster and relieve their fellow soldiers. How much value should be allocated to such an opinion?
Another lie Joe no wonder there is no other posters. What is your proof that most survivors were "were convulsed and shuttering with panic having nearly lost their lives due to Reno's atrocious leadership'"
Where were most of the medals of honors earned? Apparently the Indians did not agree with you since they could not defeat them.
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
SEMPER FI |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2009 : 8:49:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
However, understanding that, the place to which Weir went, didn't directly address the "intent" of the origional question in mind; that being whether Reno and/or Benteen ordered Weir, or Weir upon "his own hook" undertook such a mission.
Of those choices, that would have depended upon whether or not Reno was capable of giving such an order or not. And from the looks of it, and his "for gods sakes" panic attack statement to Benteen, there did seem to be at least a momentary lapse in sensibility let alone duty.
From other current ongoing discussions it is known that Reno's greatest incurred casualties occurred when he retreated, which in and of itself does not explain why he did that also. Which by all accounts seems to have been an improper recourse to the events which surrounded him. And according to Reno's orders as we now understand them, this indeed would have been the time to have "charged" the indians, as Custer anticipated, but not towards Reno Hill as Reno supposedly did. Indeed Reno Charged, just as Custer told him to do, but he "charged" to the rear, not to the "sound of Custer's guns" as Custer had directed him to do.
There are of course the peripheral issues, the bloody knife incident, the mount, dismount, mount incident, and of course the one where he throws his pistol at an indian.
Of course one supposes that in the heat of battle, Major's do major bobbles time after time, and perhaps even forgets whether or not a courier may have been sent to him with instructions to effect a junction or some such language, not that it would have mattered anyway, right?
But the most glaring one appears to be not letting Benteen continue on with his mission, but instead to "for gods sakes help him" there to stave off attacks by how many indians? Which wasn't the first time that happened either, but we wont dredge that one up again just now.
Most, of course do not blame Benteen for this unfortunate incident, after all, he just happened upon this tragic scene, and certainly couldn't be held accountable, could he, if he failed to carry out any of the orders Custer had given him that day?
There of course was the ever present need to point the finger at those who could not defend themselves. Indeed, Benteen's "own hook" reference to Weir's actions have led many to believe just what he wanted them to believe, but was it right?
I have recalled your entire post because seldom do we find such a comprehensive explanation of the tragic mistakes made by officers which resulted in the unnecessary demise of Custer's command. Reno's retreat/charge condemned any change of victory and/or orderly retreat from the field. Reno's position in the timber could have been defended for hours given Benteen a reasonable change to "come up." It would also afforded Custer's the opportunity to assault the northern portion of the village thus, the hammer strikes the anvil. I have said this before and I will not hesitate to repeat, your posts are a refreshing breeze of comprehensible data that ferments the seeds of knowledge. Thank you Sir! |
Edited by - joe wiggs on December 16 2009 8:50:46 PM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 16 2009 : 9:49:29 PM
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Reno's failure is easy to see, and it wasn't the 'initial charge' as many suspect today that was the cause. It is without a question that Reno did accomplish the first part of his mission, that of "bringing the Indians to battle." It was in the 2nd part of Custer's directive where he failed, and failed miserably. And that is why the 'couched' language at the COI. As it turns out most of what everyone heard in one way or another was a part of Custer's orders to Reno. It's bringing it together in a comprehensive manner to make sense of what took place that hasn't made sense for over 135 years.
Your Hammer and Anvil analogy is tantalizing, but to be correct, one has to determine which was the hammer, and which the anvil, or it won't make sense. Then there is the matter of "Benteen". Was he to be part of the "hammer" or part of the "anvil"? And your bet is? Again it is a part of that 'couched' language they used at the COI. It's like looking for a flea in a thick rug. Sometimes it jumps right out at you and you never ever see it. 
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AZ Ranger
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 17 2009 : 09:35:46 AM
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Benteen was still on a recon in force mission in my opinion when Custer changed from that mission to actual visuals on Indians. Reno was the advance and as such was to to attempt to fix them. In the fear of the day that they would run as opposed to fight bring them to battle would be the same as fix them.
Custer still did not have a location for a large body of Indians or else he failed to notify Benteen and the rear guard at an appropriate time. Once he observed the big village he sent at least one messenger to end Benteen's recon in force and to alert the rear guard to close up.
If there were a hammer and anvil plan then the village location would have had to been discovered. If that is true you are accusing Custer of failing to notify Benteen, the pack train, and the rear guard in a timely manner. I don't believe that Custer knew the village location when he sent Reno in advance.
If you believe Custer knew there was a stationary village while he was in Reno Creek before sending Reno how much sooner would Benteen and the rear guard had been notified if the messengers were sent then?
I believe Custer went that direction to block crossing the river and fleeing based upon Indians observed while in Reno Creek. I would think if the only objective was to get to the other side of the Indians it would have been easier in the valley. If the only concern was fleeing Indians on the same side of the river why would anyone think they could get their quicker by the route Custer took?
AZ Ranger |
“ An officer's first duty is to his horses.”
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 18 2009 : 9:12:36 PM
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
Reno's failure is easy to see, and it wasn't the 'initial charge' as many suspect today that was the cause. It is without a question that Reno did accomplish the first part of his mission, that of "bringing the Indians to battle." It was in the 2nd part of Custer's directive where he failed, and failed miserably. And that is why the 'couched' language at the COI. As it turns out most of what everyone heard in one way or another was a part of Custer's orders to Reno. It's bringing it together in a comprehensive manner to make sense of what took place that hasn't made sense for over 135 years.
Your Hammer and Anvil analogy is tantalizing, but to be correct, one has to determine which was the hammer, and which the anvil, or it won't make sense. Then there is the matter of "Benteen". Was he to be part of the "hammer" or part of the "anvil"? And your bet is? Again it is a part of that 'couched' language they used at the COI. It's like looking for a flea in a thick rug. Sometimes it jumps right out at you and you never ever see it.
The "comprehensive manner" becomes even more difficult when one realizes that 135 years of distance is intertwined with the individuals who insist that they already have the answers thus, further investigation is not necessary. The "status Quo" response is similar to this: Custer attacked a village as large as a city, he had no tactical plans, he sent Benteen on a wild goose chase, and poor Reno had no military choice but to "scram."
Espouse anything differently and you are challenged with the "Wrath of Kahn." Long ago I approach dc about his repetitive charge that "Custerphiles" did this and they did that over and over again;assiduously. The implication, of course, is that any poster who dared to believe that Custer was not an idiot was a Custerphile. This definition,basically, stated that anyone who disagreed with dc was a Custerphile! Now I ask the world, what does that make dc? A Custerphobe of course!
It is laughable that certain individuals chastise every act of Custer's, defend every act of Reno and Benteen then scream from the highest mountain: I never said Custer was an idiot. Who said that I said it, show me where I said it."
The reality is that it is fashionable to denigrate Custer now. In the past, it was not so. he was once a celebrity of the Civil War area who served his Country with distinction and honor. He helped to bring a horrendous war to a timely end. He died following orders of his senior commanders. Yet, men who have never served anyone stand in file to condemn him. |
Edited by - joe wiggs on December 18 2009 9:23:47 PM |
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Benteen
Lt. Colonel
Status: offline |
Posted - December 19 2009 : 10:38:28 AM
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quote:
The "comprehensive manner" becomes even more difficult when one realizes that 135 years of distance is intertwined with the individuals who insist that they already have the answers thus, further investigation is not necessary. The "status Quo" response is similar to this: Custer attacked a village as large as a city, he had no tactical plans, he sent Benteen on a wild goose chase, and poor Reno had no military choice but to "scram."
This is the standard history as set forth by whom? Lets see.
1) Who was it that claimed that "he (Custer) sent Benteen on a wild goose chase"?
2) Who was it that gave the impression that "Reno had no military choice but to 'scram'?
3) Who was it who inflated the size of the village from their earliest recollections?
4) Who was it who maintained that Custer "had no plans"?
Who wrote this history?
Every since John Gray people have used his timeline practice to further their own theories into the myths. And what do they do to these timelines to tell where Custer was at any given moment in their timelines? That's correct, they use those "sightings" of Custer and/or his battalion atop the bluffs and assume they have it right based upon whose testimony? One man's - Giovanni Martini. Yet even Benteen ridiculed his intelligence at the COI as befitting what?
Giovanni Martini's departure point then becomes a theme of contention, and when - where becomes important because it spatially has to connect all three battalions into geosynchronous orbit around where Custer's battalion should have been. Then we get these nutso's who as you so generously put it Joe who have it all figured out, so there's no need to go any further; and what does their findings show? That's correct, it supports points 1 through 4 above as it could do no other, because they keep scratching that itch produced by that flea that jumped out of that rug that they didn't see.
Martin's language skills were not that much improved over what he had demonstrated 3 years earlier, nor may I add was his knowledge base in acquiring memory in a linear fashion enough to produce something that a modern day Freud should, could or would understand. So when some simpleton with simple Ideas tries to state simple idealism, tries to stumble blindly through the words and phrases stated, not only will one flea he miss, while searching the thick rug for a word or phrase, many will bite, while searching - before he realizes that he still has too much to explain by dismissing alot of testimony and statements that were true, that even a simpleton like himself should see that it just doesn't work, and never will. And the reason why? Because in each of these theories, the proposal has to include MTF, and that's one huge bloodsucking flea that just wont go away.
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 19 2009 : 8:43:08 PM
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Excellent!!! martini was ridiculed because his familiarity with the English language was weak. h e was made to appear to be incompetent. A horrible example of the despicable "class distinction" so prevalent during this era.
The antithesis to this poor soul was the "silver tongue" Benteen. A cantankerous goat who spun magical tales of "I had no idea what the hell was going on. Why, if it weren't for me everybody would have been wiped out."
History is written by the winners and survivors. Both groups not sparing the thickest "whitewash" to further their own motives and greed. |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - December 19 2009 : 8:46:00 PM
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| P.S. Who made the third vote on this poll? |
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joe wiggs
Brigadier General
USA
Status: offline |
Posted - August 07 2011 : 10:52:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AZ Ranger
There were no orders that required Benteen to go anywhere except toward the Big Village. Circumstances had changed since the writing of the note that Martin carried requiring officer's to make decisions. That's what they are taught and expected to do.
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How could you possibly know what orders were given or not given? Secondly, Benteen was not ordered toward the "Big Village" because no one knew the exact location of the village when he was ordered oblique left for purposes of stifling potential escaping villagers.
You are correct when you state that "circumstances had changed" since the writing of the note. You are also correct when you state officers are trained to respond to changing circumstance;sadly Benteen ignored this vital and fatal "change" in circumstances.
Custer was not waiting in a fixed preplanned location for the pack train. Since it could not move as fast as Custer why would anyone think that the pack train could have ended up on the Custer battlefield under control of anyone but the Indians?
quote:
Benteen himself stated that the Indians could not get to the pack train as "he" was between the Indians and it;vital ammunition packs could have been cut loose and accompanied by Benteen's command (or a portion thereof) and arrived in a timely fashion.
Secondly,(regarding Custer's "prefixed location)had Benteen asked Martini of Custer's location (which he did not) he would have been told:that's why the courier was sent in the first place. Even a cursory study of military protocol between officers and men will substantiate that subordinates did not offer information to a superior without prior consent. As silly as that appears to the modern mind that's how it was then!
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Edited by - joe wiggs on August 07 2011 10:56:22 AM |
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Weir's Response to Custer
