| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| movingrobewoman |
Posted - July 11 2004 : 5:00:54 PM
Just a question here--having finished "Lakota Noon," what are your opinions regarding Michno's "devaluation" of both Gall and Crazy Horse's importance to the Lakota/Cheyenne/Arapaho victory at LBH?
Thanks--
Movingrobewoman |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - May 07 2008 : 9:04:22 PM
"Now I light the pipe, and after I offered it to the powers that are one Power, and sent forth a voice to them, we shall smoke together. Offering the mouthpiece first of all to the One above-so-I send a voice."
Black Elk Speaks |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 20 2007 : 8:52:04 PM
Ah, my friend, how true. They did indeed out flank Reno's left and right. At that point, a fall back to the timber was absolutely correct. However, when we view his halt and command to "skirmish" as the cause of his being outflanked we begin to understand the "why" of this occurrence. I do not propose to give the impression of being an authority on this matter for I am certainly not. What I do know from consuming information from various sources is that the native American philosophy of war was somewhat at odds with the European philosophy. To the Indian, a battle ensued until the enemy was exterminated or escaped the field. No provision for "surrender" nor "Red Cross" facilities were contemplated. therefore, the enemy who ceases to assault when that option is available is immediately perceived to be as weak and foolish.
When Reno halted he could only see the southern portion of the village. There was no physical way he could have determined or guesstimated the size of the village. As a result, he could not have know about the "thousands" of warriors who were there. He determined the size of the village only after the battle was over. He had not suffered, at this point, a single casualty yet he halted his troops. Then, and only then, did the warriors regroup, massed, and initiated the movements required to out flank Reno. Realizing that Reno has ceased to move forward, they recovered and assumed the initiative.
|
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 19 2007 : 11:24:57 PM
They were flanking him and would have hit his flanks. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 19 2007 : 8:34:44 PM
Had Reno charged that village and attempted to push the attack from the southern end to the northern end, the results may have have been disastrous with every single member of his command being sacrificed.
However, what would have happened had he engaged the warriors in a truly strenuous manner, pushing as close as he dared to the village, delivering a heavy toll in Indian deaths than withdrawing in an orderly manner with an appropriate rearguard. Then, turning about with a renewed "charge" only to fall back in an orderly fashion once again. Can you imagine the disorder and chaos he could have created in that village?
All I am suggesting is that the original consternation Reno's assault on the village created could have been parlayed into something much more, the beginning of a massive Indian rout. Once panic sets in, an exorbitant number of the opponent becomes irrelevant because the "numbers" stampede like Buffalo. Would I have the intestinal fortitude to carry out this suggestion? Probably not. Then again I am not a Major in the U.S. Military either. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 17 2007 : 01:56:30 AM
With a large village that would been disastrous for the cavalry. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 16 2007 : 7:30:00 PM
You are absolutely correct, Reno's skirmish was ineffectual and caused minor damage to the Indian village. However, the sound of over a hundred men firing at my home, no matter what the distance, would cause a great deal of consternation,to say the least.
In addition, it behooves us to understand that the Indians truly feared and, shuddered, at the thought of a Cavalry charge. Past incidents/battles wherein the majority of Indian casualties were women and children, were fresh in the minds of these people. They had no way of knowing that Reno would not attempt to race through the village. In fact, based upon past experiences, that is exactly what they expected. Imagine their surprise when Reno chose to fall back. This is not a condemnation of Reno, I can't say as I altogether blame him. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 14 2007 : 11:44:54 AM
Reno stopped and formed a skirmish line because of Indians to his front not just to shoot at the village. He wasn't close enough to do to much damage to the village. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 13 2007 : 6:00:07 PM
Excerpt from John S. Gray, page 271
"Reno's men came down Reno creek; they were seen by two Sans Arc young men, who went up Reno creek to get a horse that had been wounded in the Rosebud fight. Two Bear was killed by Reno's scouts;Lone Dog, the other, went back and gave the alarm, riding from side to side. Feather Ear-ring saw him signaling that soldiers are coming. He had no sooner arrived at the village than Reno's command began firing at the tepees."
The thunderous discharges of the rifles and the verbal warnings resulted, naturally, in a conglomeration, of responses from the villagers. Some of which were fear, apprehension, anger, hate, alarm to name a few. Eventually, as we now know, the warriors did mass on Reno's right flank and front. I was referring to the understandable and very human reaction by the warriors in the initial stage of the battle. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 13 2007 : 02:25:11 AM
I would like to know how quick the Indians could be ready. Hundreds were ready as Reno approached the village. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 12 2007 : 10:17:55 PM
I know it seems odd to insinuate the possibility that the Indians may have "panicked", particularly when we know the fatal outcome of this battle. After all, the warriors kicked the "hell" out of the 7th. Calvary. How then may we even suggest that the Indians may have "panicked?" If we believe that the village was taken by total surprise with women, children, and warriors running "Helter Schelter" to and fro then such a possibility is possible.
If we agree that the village was totally aware of the approach of the troopers, laid in ambush, then attacked with a vengeance and destroyed them "en Toto" then the panic theory is not credible.
My perspective is based upon "Indian" statements that profess a reasonable alternative, it was not one way or the other but, a combination of both. Most of the village had no idea about what was going on until Reno attacked. Women digging turnips, men hunting buffalo, and late Indian arrivals, however, did manage to warn the village. Thus, some of the warriors did panick and some did not. Some fled away, some did not. Some fought heroically, some did not.
In summation, all people are capable of panic, including the "victorious" warriors who overcame their apprehensions.
|
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - January 11 2007 : 12:40:05 AM
What were they panicing about? |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - January 06 2007 : 3:36:06 PM
regarding Gall's actual involvement in the battle, I found something of interest. In "Black Elk Speaks" a reference is made that describes a portion of his involvement: 'Among us there in the bush and out in the Hunkpapa camp a cry went up! Take courage! Don't be a woman! the helpless are out of breath" I think this was when gall stopped the Hunkpapas, who had been running away, and turned them back. (page 84)
This passage appears to give Gall credit for turning about warriors who were fleeing away from the battle in panic. a possible indication that is involvement in the fight was more significant than G. F. Michno credits him with. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - October 06 2006 : 8:52:14 PM
Shadymist, an absolutely excellent summation of a hypothetical situation to which there can never be an absolute answer. However,I am in complete accord with your very plausible post. Again, an excellent summation.
It is believed that Weir was a part of the Custer "clan", a group of individuals who saw the best in the General and, possibly, overlooked the worst in his mannerisms. Whether they were motivated by admiration, family ties,loyalty, sympathy, empathy, or whatever the case may have been, these persons believed that Custer was still alive while Reno malingered in his defensive position.
While this harsh assumption can not be proven, we can accept the "possibility" that Weir believed it to be so. Therefore, we now have Weir disobeying orders, dashing towards the "sounds of fire", and followed by Lt. Edgarly. For what purpose? To save the General and his command? I believe so. Although I have no proof to offer, this is my conviction. Now, let us add a very human element to the scenario. You have arrived at Weir's Point. Contrary to every possible conviction you may possess concerning the ultimate fate of your comrades, the startling and unsettling fact is this. Hundreds of blood thirsty "savages" are now charging you position. Their intent? To fill your shuddering carcass with a score of feathered, metal tipped, arrows. What do you do? Follow through with your honorable intention to succor your comrades (who are very possibly already dead)or, to get the "hell" out of Dodge as quickly as possible.
Yes Shadymist, you are absolutely on the money. Weir chose the route most of us would have chosen. Get the hell out of Dodge. Ironically, were it not for Godfrey's action,as you so pointedly pointed out, an acute possibility now exist that he, and the rest of the 7Th.Calvary may have met the same fate as Custer.
I ask you, is it possible that his failure to "stand fast" for the sake of his beloved commander, resulted in a absolute guilty conscious that led to alcoholism and, ultimately, death?
We have no why of knowing. However, more importantly, your post gives us all ample food for thought; and for that i thank you. |
| shadymist |
Posted - October 02 2006 : 2:34:19 PM
Weir twice left his command without permission. Once at the morass because he thought Benteen was taking to long and again from Reno Hill when he left without permission or orders.
What he saw from Weir Hill, he never stated. However he said to a sergeant next to him something like: "I believe that is Custer over there." The sergeant next to him using binoculars said you better use these (binocs) that isn't Custer, but Indians.
Edgerly who was a little further ahead and slightly lower stated years later the hills were black with Indians and were shooting at objects on the ground. He later said he realized it was Indians shooting Custer's men.
Whether Edgerly had a better view from his position than Weir, they saw the end of Custer's command, but couldn't put it together because it was unthinkable.
Once Indians noticed the Weir Advance Weir left. It was only the quick thinking of Godfrey who established skirmishers that probably saved the command from being chased down by Indians. As it was Vincent Charley was left behind after being told by Edgerly he would be taken back. Weir said no and left him to the Indians.
Weir then virtually disappeared from testimony once on Reno Hill. Six months later he was dead, either from alcohol, depression, congestion, "melancholia" or a combination.
What he had to say to Libby will never be known . . . it may have something to do with him being denied permission by Reno/Benteen to go to Custer's aid, or possibly the actions of Benteen & Reno, both of whom were not "Custer Men" as Weir was. What he saw from Weir Hill was probably what Edgerly and the sergeant and others saw, so that may not be the "something." |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - October 01 2006 : 6:01:36 PM
Movingrobe Woman, good to hear from you! Regarding the term "consumption", right you are. "Vague and Victorian" is an apt description for a man who, apparently, drank himself to death during that era. He certainly was not the only lush in the 7th. Perhaps his pragmatic departure from Weir's Point after his unauthorized but gutsy dash towards his commander left him with feelings of inadequacy and guilt. Although, I must say, who could have done no more than he did.
Yes, you do owe me a E-mail |
| movingrobewoman |
Posted - October 01 2006 : 11:59:05 AM
Joe--
Just a note. Consumption is another term for tuberculosis. Whilst you are correct in that Weir died from the drink, I'm thinking his death was attributed to "congestion of the brain," or something similar. Vague and Victorian.
Weir was a lush before he met GAC and LBC, so I am not certain his death necessarily had to do with LBH. It just might have been his time to go. Maybe he was gonna declare his love for her ... or that one time, over one of those all-night poker bouts, GAC had waxed that he'd want her to marry again? Or maybe it was just LBH talk.
Intriguing, though. I know, I know! I owe you an email! |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - September 30 2006 : 8:37:18 PM
What would one give to hear the "things" Weir had to tell Libby? Did he possess some knowledge unknown to historians to this very day? disobeying Reno's orders he went forth to the "sounds" of firing. Upon his death it was reported that he died of "consumption." I believe consumption is merely a polite way of saying the man drank himself to death. If so, was it because of what he saw or what he failed to do? |
| shadymist |
Posted - September 28 2006 : 3:10:33 PM
<I have often wondered, as have many others, exactly what Capt. Weir observed>
Weir never said . . . even though he told Libbie Custer he had "things" to tell her.
Edgerly stated many years later the hills were black with Indians and they were shooting at objects on the ground. It was only by that time did he say it was Custer's men the "objects" were.
Edgerly was lower and further ahead than Weir so may have been closer and had a better angle to see what was going on. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - September 24 2006 : 7:11:08 PM
"By now we saw that our warriors were all charging on some soldiers that had come from the hill up river to help the second band that we had rubbed out."
Black Elk Speaks, page 94 (paper back)
I have often wondered, as have many others, exactly what Capt. Weir observed as he gazed through binoculars towards Calhoun Hill which was encased in sweltering and swirling dust on that hot, summer day in Montana. The fallen bodies of the men of "L" troop being fired upon by the embolden warriors who blood lust was boiling over in an emotional rampage. Is it possible that a portion of Custer's battalion were still alive?
Apparently this "band" from up river was the Weir enclave which was quickly repulsed. if this is the case then Custer and his men were already "rubbed" out by the time Weir arrived. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - September 29 2005 : 10:15:11 PM
HE MIGHT HAVE LIVES...
"One man, he thought it was an officer, was the last to live. He was mounted on a splendid horse, and seeing all his comrades dead, started up the ravine marked "I" in the diagram." Mrs. Spotted Tail.
Who was this individual?
|
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - August 07 2005 : 10:07:18 PM
Hunk, I agree with you. Such a fact is filled with sadness though. This magnificent, human specimen who commanded the respect of all did resort to telling the "White" man exactly what he wanted to hear. At the end, he chose to survive as best he could. God bless him and the others who discovered themselves in a similar predicament. |
| hunkpapa7 |
Posted - August 07 2005 : 8:39:17 PM
Another thing to remember is that Gall became a puppet for the government
There was not much truth came out of him after the LBH |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - August 06 2005 : 10:36:03 PM
Jason, this is not an attempt to convince you to elevate Crazy Horse above Gall in your admiration of either men. However, if you get a change to read "The journey of Crazy Horse" by Joseph M. Marshall, you may agree that both men were exceptional leaders, in different ways, and worthy of exceptional esteem. |
| JasonBury |
Posted - August 06 2005 : 05:23:09 AM
Crazy Horse is an enigma.....growing up he was my hero but now as a wider read adult who is built, lets say on the chunky side, Gall has become my favourite..... |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - August 03 2005 : 10:46:06 PM
I feel amiss, to have mentioned great Indian Leaders and not to have referred to the magnificent, Crazy Horse. A mysterious man endowed with such superior leadership qualities that,even his surrender did not diffuse the wachicu's fear of his ability to foster continuous admiration from his fellow tribesmen. Hence his innate ability to foster admiration which may lead to rebellion could only be quelled with his death;so he died. |
|
|
