| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| waldo |
Posted - August 15 2011 : 5:09:06 PM
What if Custer had struck right away, before the Indians had their morning coffee, with Reno's men with him and the boy general in the lead, causing mass chaos in the village? Same result as Reno? |
| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - August 23 2011 : 7:27:52 PM
Absolutely! It was that piecemeal "dinner" that enabled the sated warriors to thoroughly clean their plates. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - August 23 2011 : 12:24:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by waldo
If Custer had waited till he crossed the ford and saw a little better the size of the village, from where Reno dismounted, said" holy cow" a LOT of Indians, now you have a "better commander" and 400? 500? guys with him, plus cover in the timber if the attack fails, and Benteen on the way. I want to know what YOU think of that situation. Better than out in the open all divided up. There are enough soldiers together to create utter chaos in the village, I agree that it's natural to stay at home and protect the family. 3-1 odds doesn't sound like an automatic rout now. Thanks for sharing your knowlege with us.
What can reasonably bethought is that Custer would have all 12 companies engaged at the same time. The outcomes may vary but if he and Reno cross at the same place Benteen and the pack train should end up there also.
Instead the 7th was fed to the Indians a few companies at a time.
AZ Ranger |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - August 19 2011 : 8:36:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by waldo
So what was the final plan supposed to be? Was Reno to "charge the Village" and Custer comes around the other side and they meet in the middle?
quote:
Custer used similar tactics here as he did at the battle of the Wa****a; a pincer movement of numerous units to wreck surprise and havoc of the inhabitants of the military target. Custer did not,of course, realize that there were numerous villages down stream (of the Wa****a)with hundreds of warriors who, hearing the sounds of fire, began responding toward his position. fortunately, he was able to extricate himself without suffering additional losses by capturing women and children and holding them as hostages.
quote:
At the Little Big Horn,Custer became convinced that the village was on the "run" and would be soon out of his grasp unless he took decisive action. He formulated a plan (on the cuff so to speak)to chase, capture, and subdue as many Indians as possible which require a division of troops. No commander desires to separate his command when facing an enemy of undetermined numbers. However, to his regret, Custer assumed that the village was already dispersing in different directions and would soon escape. He was wrong and,he and his men, payed the price.
If Reno had cowered in the middle of the timber, then only half as many Indians would have gone after Custer. Then how is Custer supposed to "support" Reno and reunite the unit? Are they supposed to fight as two separate units north and south? Is Custer going to ride back the way he came? I don't know what a cavalry charge is supposed to do. How do you "capture" people that don't want to be captured. Shoot them?
quote:
Please keep in mind that Reno's orders were rather specific in that he was to choose an appropriate pace, find the Indians who were fleeing from him and bring them to battle. These Indians I'm referring to did had recently departed from a satellite village of 30 tipi's or so who separated themselves from the Sitting Bull Camp to pay homage to one of their warriors who was mortally wounded in the Rosebud battle. Upon Custer approach they quickly fled, leaving camp fires still burning. It was these Indians that Custer wanted captured before they reached the main camp. Basically the plan involved the usage of Reno's men to assist in capturing the Indians. With Benteen out of the loop, Reno's battalion was vital to Custer just to survive!
quote:
At this point in time, Custer knew the general vicinity of the camp but not the specific one. In the initial charge many would have, undoubtedly, perished. Only when a certain amount of "blood lust" by the soldiers had transpired would the remainder of refugees been allowed to surrender. Horrible truth isn't it.
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| waldo |
Posted - August 18 2011 : 9:33:46 PM
So what was the final plan supposed to be? Was Reno to "charge the Village" and Custer comes around the other side and they meet in the middle? If Reno had cowered in the middle of the timber, then only half as many Indians would have gone after Custer. Then how is Custer supposed to "support" Reno and reunite the unit? Are they supposed to fight as two separate units north and south? Is Custer going to ride back the way he came? I don't know what a cavelry charge is supposed to do. How do you "capture" people that don't want to be captured. Shoot them? |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - August 18 2011 : 2:02:25 PM
Yes, a whole lot of action is going on simultaneously and, ironically, individual perspective is limited to a matter of feet in circumference regardless of the enormity of the battle field. Men engaged in hot combat are generally compelled by the "fight or fright" mechanism; to either engage the enemy or run away. This biological mechanism is vital for human survival.
This also accounts for the immensely contradictory perspectives as to what occurred or did not occur in witness testimony. So engrossed in personal survival that any one participant often has very limited recollection of what occurred to another combatant (friend or foe)mere feet away.
Actually, neither Reno nor Custer probably attempted to drive a "charge" home. Reno ordered his troops into skirmish prior to making contact with a considerable number of warriors;regardless of his written and oral statements to the contrary.
Most students opine that Custer's "charge" at ford "B" was a military feint designed to distract the warriors from Reno's military front;it was successful.
At the separation point, neither command was able to visualize the village at that distance. Reno, eventually, observed the southern edge of the village in his action. Custer actually saw the village when he arrived at elevation points that enabled him to do so;
either Weir's Point of Sharpshooter's Ridge.
Both commanders were cognizant of large Indian trails leading in the directions they pursued. Also, valuable reconnaissance was gathered from the Crow's Nest.
If my recollection serves me well, Reno arrived (first) on Reno Hill after a run of five to six minutes. Benteen arrived in that same time span as he observed troop rs still ascending the ravines leading to Reno Hill. Using that time frame, had he stayed ten minutes or less, Benteen would have supported him.
Keep in mind, the timber afforded much better security than the Reno Hill. Dense foliage and a circular basin ten feet or so below the valley floor would have served Reno's command well had they remained.
Reno suffered loses in the timber solely because he left the skirmish line and fled to the park area within the timber. Others soon followed which enabled the warriors to penetrate the timber for the very first time. A scout killed in his near presence absolved Reno of any spunk he may have retained and he fled.
Custer would have attacked from his position in Medicine Trail coulée dividing the warriors in half, creating havoc and panic among them and creating access to the women and children:a primary military objective to take the fight out of the warriors.
Remember, Custer's feint (if that is what it was)accomplished exactly that! The entire warrior force absconded from Reno to pursue Custer. Unlike Reno, Custer understood the fundamental "truism" about Indian warriors, to run away from an Indian is death. Only by threatening their families will warriors thrown down their weapons and surrender. |
| waldo |
Posted - August 17 2011 : 3:46:08 PM
Wow, lot going on! If the combined forces of both Reno and Custer
can't carry a charge through, then EVERYONE dies. Looking at the battlefield map, Custer and Reno split at the lower forks, can you see the village from there? Are you aware yet that you are outnumbered? This is all speculation,but, if Reno had NOT become unglued and took cover in the timber waiting for Benteen, what then does Custer do? What is his best move? He can see from Weirs point or thereabouts what he is up against, and that they are in a fighting mood, and Reno is pinned. Now what? |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - August 16 2011 : 7:07:53 PM
What you have referred to is a situation of such immense complexity that is difficult to draw a final conclusion as to what may or may not have occurred. In actuality (as Custer's command approached Ford "B") there is a possibility that he was aware of the enormity of the village having ascertained that information earlier from either "Weir's Point" and or "Sharpshooter's Ridge." From that location(s),Custer recognized three events occurring simultaneously:
1.) A huge dust cloud moving south toward Reno's position;
2.) A huge dust cloud moving west toward the village, pony hear;
3.) A huge dust cloud headed north.
Custer's interpretation of these events were correct to a certain extent. The first dust cloud was produced by the hoove prints of mounted warriors rushing to meet Reno. The second second dust cloud reflected warriors afoot and pony hooves rushing toward the pony herds west of the village. The third dust cloud represented Indian women,children, and non-combatants fleeing north in absolute panic - away from the soldiers.
It is my speculation that Custer assumed that what he witnessed was a village breaking up north and west while using a typical Indian "rear-guard" to hold back Reno's men and keep them from endangering the weak ones.
Custer was half right and half wrong! Indians were running helter skelter but, this deluge of mankind did not include the warriors who were prepared to die for there folk.
Had Reno held his position for a few minutes more, there is a significant possibility that Custer could have extracted his command without suffering such a tragic lost. Remember, Benteen arrived while a substantial amount of Reno's men were continuing to ascend Reno Hill. It was fleeing troopers under Reno who inadvertently distracted Benteen toward their location. Had Reno maintained his position, Benteen would have, unquestionably, united with Reno.
Thus, the combined forces may have been strong enough to keep the warriors at bay until Custer and Keogh arrived.
This scenario does not ensure a "win" by Custer but, as I said above, he may have been strong enough to fall back and await the arrival of Terry two days later.
Nothing is guaranteed in combat particularly when facing fighters who engage in guerrilla like tactics. However, a bold show of force was known to, at the very least, cause the Indians to pause and reflect prior to stampeding toward mounted calvary.
Reno's style of leadership was psychologically detrimental to the men he led. From the youngest recruit to the top NCO,many of them made mention of Reno's inability to inspire the men to fight. Uninspired soldiers do not fight well! |
| waldo |
Posted - August 16 2011 : 2:34:37 PM
If Custer had waited till he crossed the ford and saw a little better the size of the village, from where Reno dismounted, said" holy cow" a LOT of Indians, now you have a "better commander" and 400? 500? guys with him, plus cover in the timber if the attack fails, and Benteen on the way. I want to know what YOU think of that situation. Better than out in the open all divided up. There are enough soldiers together to create utter chaos in the village, I agree that it's natural to stay at home and protect the family. 3-1 odds doesn't sound like an automatic rout now. Thanks for sharing your knowlege with us. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - August 16 2011 : 10:49:27 AM
Excellent question Waldo and the possible conclusions are endless. If unable to mount a timely counter-charge against the troops, the warriors would naturally lean toward the safety of their families first. Being predominately individualistic fighters, individual aims would, probably, super-cede tactics required to ensure the safety of the masses.
However, the possibility that the blunt force of the troops's "charge" may have petered out within a mile of it's origination giving the warriors time to mount a counter-charge.
The variation of possibilities are endless which makes the speculation so interesting!
Tell me, what do you think? |
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