| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - May 09 2008 : 9:16:11 PM
I have, and will always continue to have, the utmost respect for trailblazing work of Col. W.A. Graham. His book,The Custer Myth, is a must read for the serious student of the Battle of the Little Big Horn. In his "The Reno Court of Inquiry" he writes: "The inquiry was duly held; the witnesses testified under oath. In the main they told the truth as they saw it."
Mr. Graham was a great respecter of the officer class of that era which is quite understandable. However, the assumption that the truth was testified to isn't necessarily so. This does not infer that out right lies were given; they were not. I believe half-truths were proffered to protect the honor of the regiment.
In other words, if it were proven that Reno's performance was less than honorable would result in a stain on the 7th. Calvary that would never be forgotten. In addition, the fall of one officer could result in the fall of others, the "domino effect" as it were. Few of thew surviving officers (Benteen, Edgerly, Gibson, French, and Moylan example)could not have been totally proud of their actions.
For the sake of the regiment and, on a personal level, individual officers it may have been expedient to lay the blame of a fiasco upon the shoulders of those who could no longer speak than to reveal the actions of those did the best that they could under the circumstances. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - July 30 2011 : 2:30:52 PM
Actually, I came up with it a long time ago. I was just waiting for an appropriate time to use it. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - July 18 2011 : 08:06:21 AM
It took you 1 year and 7 months to come up with that? |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - July 17 2011 : 6:43:59 PM
With great sincerity, I now understand your inability to see the points of others. Your ego is so profound that anyone who disagrees with you, no matter how slightly, is/are perceived by you to be arrogant idiots.
You and d.c. suffer from the same mental delusional manifestation.
As long as others buy into your thought processes all is well in fantasy land.
I now realize that your "hang-up" is a thing of great sadness and I truly feel sorry for you. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - December 07 2009 : 08:52:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Sadly, evil is, undeniably, a portion of mankind's faith as is goodness as well. For most of us, this struggle is an on going battle that is responsible for a great many misfortunes of our history. Another term for evil is "Ego", the driving force within the soul of a human that insist, believes, and prompts the false theory that he or she is greater than their neighbor.
Custer, like you and I (most likely) endured the same horrendous struggle between good and evil that hampers all of mankind except the Saints.
The status of "Saint" of course, excludes you,I and, Custer.
I do not believe evil and ego are the same. Did you ever train to survive an unprovoked attack? Was part of the training the mental attitude of surviving? Does one's thinking that they can win or lose depend upon believing they are greater than their enemy?
I see the point as who are you neighbors and who is the bad guy or enemy. A lot of what we do today is using hindsight and switching roles between the current view of neighbors and the past view of enemies. I think they believed the Indians were the enemy and today we believe the Indians are neighbors and were wronged.
AZ Ranger |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - December 04 2009 : 8:53:46 PM
Sadly, evil is, undeniably, a portion of mankind's faith as is goodness as well. For most of us, this struggle is an on going battle that is responsible for a great many misfortunes of our history. Another term for evil is "Ego", the driving force within the soul of a human that insist, believes, and prompts the false theory that he or she is greater than their neighbor.
Custer, like you and I (most likely) endured the same horrendous struggle between good and evil that hampers all of mankind except the Saints.
The status of "Saint" of course, excludes you,I and, Custer. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 30 2009 : 09:56:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Not quite. Custer was no coward but, he wanted to be there and, was following orders.
More importantly, is the evil that lays within men that allows the horror of war to become a never ending part of Human nature.
So Custer is evil?
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| Benteen |
Posted - November 29 2009 : 9:36:37 PM
Joe,
quote:
Once again you have hit the proverbial "nail" right on the head. Undoubtedly, there were a few "cowards" who believed that they were about to engage in a festival of slaughter of the savages only to fall prey to their intended victims.
Just as there were, undoubtedly, a group "poor souls" who were there because they had to be; following orders as it were.
More importantly, is the evil that lays within men that allows the horror of war to become a never ending part of Human nature.
One supposes that some would come to pervert and twist the meaning of the words, especially the last line you wrote, such is the true meaning and nature indeed. Neurosis is the symptom of a lie we keep repeating to ourselves and others. “When you are not quite at one with yourself. . .you are approaching a neurotic condition.” Jung once said.
Jung also understood that it was not always a good thing to expend the energy and time to bestow assistance to those who did not understand their own shadow nature. The “animal” nature of human beings was not lost on Jung, it was one of the basic tenants of Jung’s shadow theory. The basic “animal” instinct does not value or hold sacred, nor does it have appreciation for anything humane, and can and will openly attack you in spite of every attempt to equate it to human standards. Jung understood this in the light of Christ‘s own words, "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6). Some in religion try to down play this as allegorical in nature, but in reality, man can also revert to his basic “animal” instincts and become those “animals” Christ described, thus Jung’s Shadow theory.
These people literally become as Jung well knew like “animals”, an important bridge in understanding between psychology and religion. They have no appreciation for anything humane. They despise, “turn and tear you to pieces” and in spite of any best effort, rebuff and viscously attack - without warning as any animal. They belittle and devalue, and “trample” what is offered to them. And, as a “dog”, they could care less whether what was offered came from the lowliest to the loftiest of beings, from the garbage can or the altar. And as the “swine”, they have no appreciation for the beauty, nor the value of another’s contribution or work, and carelessly trample it before consuming their own feces and gall mixed with the dirt & offerings.
I for one have little to no interest in wasting my time and efforts on such people who quite simply must help themselves and come to terms with their own shadow and the instability it causes in their lives. I can’t do it for them, and no one else can either. But it serves to no good purpose to further the interest of this or for that matter any other website to permit them to make this their “pig pen”; or this the place where the “wolf’s lair” waits for those unsuspecting honorable souls, who just want to come to share their thoughts, learn in the process and not be intimidated or insulted, "trampled" and “torn to pieces” for what they do or do not know, or may have simply shared in innocence.
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| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 29 2009 : 12:10:07 PM
Not quite. Custer was no coward but, he wanted to be there and, was following orders. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 29 2009 : 09:02:04 AM
Just as there were, undoubtedly, a group "poor souls" who were there because they had to be; following orders as it were.
That we would be everyone from Custer on down.
More importantly, is the evil that lays within men that allows the horror of war to become a never ending part of Human nature.
Is it evil or is it nature itself? Is there a basic nature observed in animals to cause them to fight for many reasons? Does simple things like how eyes are positioned help us to define the predator or prey species? All wars are evil when you lose or don't like the outcome. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 26 2009 : 10:04:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
I'd go so far to say that some were cowards. I hold not one feeling in my soul that any war, or battle is perpetrated with "honor", just ask those who have to do the deeds. There is no honor in that. Just as there is no honor in any war or battle, nor the men who fight in them. Wars and battles are hell, and every bit as fiendish and evil as those who wish honor could be bestowed on every man who ran or was the cause of anothers death. Perhaps the title "To Hell with Honor" was more appropriate in any battle or any war and applied equally to any era when one is confronted with ones own death. Carl Gustav Jung understood this all to well when he penned this: "When it (the shadow [the evil of our soul]) appears as an archetype…it is quite within the possibility for a man to recognize the relative evil of his nature, but it is a rare and shattering experience for him to gaze into the face of absolute evil."
Once again you have hit the proverbial "nail" right on the head. Undoubtedly, there were a few "cowards" who believed that they were about to engage in a festival of slaughter of the savages only to fall prey to their intended victims.
Just as there were, undoubtedly, a group "poor souls" who were there because they had to be; following orders as it were.
More importantly, is the evil that lays within men that allows the horror of war to become a never ending part of Human nature. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 26 2009 : 09:55:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Oh Boy! This is truly unbelievable!!!, the above statement refers to Reno's decision to live the timber only. It does not allude to nor describe the way in which departure was completed. That issue did not, has not, nor ever has been discussed between you and I to my knowledge. That being the rationality of the departure which is up to conjecture also. Benteen is right, your constant attempts to dis-rail conversations grows increasingly tiresome.
Sorry didn't want to confuse you with a statement by a soldier that was part of the retrograde.
Sorry didn't want to catch you in a lie Joe.
quote:
They ran out like frightened school girls, where have you been?
quote:
It does not allude to nor describe the way in which departure was completed.
Since Reno gave the order and you used they and girls you could not have been referring to Reno alone. How can they ran out not refer to departure?
My perspective is that the retrograde worked. The Indians gave way and let them through during the charge speed portion. When the troopers weapons were empty the Indians closed in for close quarter battle unfortunately at the same time the troopers had to slow to cross the river. Ryan's statements is all about the mindset when they left the timber. You really want us to believe that "frightened school girls" left the timber and then changed into the troopers that Ryan's describes?
AZ Ranger |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 2:29:39 PM
Oh Boy! This is truly unbelievable!!!, the above statement refers to Reno's decision to live the timber only. It does not allude to nor describe the way in which departure was completed. That issue did not, has not, nor ever has been discussed between you and I to my knowledge. That being the rationality of the departure which is up to conjecture also. Benteen is right, your constant attempts to dis-rail conversations grows increasingly tiresome. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 10:16:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Benteen
I'd go so far to say that some were cowards. I hold not one feeling in my soul that any war, or battle is perpetrated with "honor", just ask those who have to do the deeds. There is no honor in that. Just as there is no honor in any war or battle, nor the men who fight in them. Wars and battles are hell, and every bit as fiendish and evil as those who wish honor could be bestowed on every man who ran or was the cause of anothers death. Perhaps the title "To Hell with Honor" was more appropriate in any battle or any war and applied equally to any era when one is confronted with ones own death. Carl Gustav Jung understood this all to well when he penned this: "When it (the shadow [the evil of our soul]) appears as an archetype…it is quite within the possibility for a man to recognize the relative evil of his nature, but it is a rare and shattering experience for him to gaze into the face of absolute evil."
Just curious Benteen did you serve in the military?
AZ Ranger |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 25 2009 : 10:13:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
az, in the name of heaven pick up a book. Any book other than the one or two you have read thus far. They ran!!! They were scared out of their wits. They suffered from the shock of mental debilitation brought on by the shock of the close proximity of the warriors and their firepower.
What happened to these men does not make them cowards. It makes them victims and very human. The lack of leadership, prescribed military tactics, the "every man for himself" mentality by Reno reduced these disciplined soldiers to an undisciplined rabble. The descriptions are not pretty but, nevertheless true.
It is you inability to comprehend the psychological ramifications combat duress and post trauma stress that forces you to believe that I am shamelessly critical of the soldiers rather than understand what really happened.
PS, thus far, there have been only two posters who viewpoints are antithetical to mine, you and dc. I can live with that.
Let's start with someone actually there.
Ten Years with Custer
"Before we crossed the river, the fighting was desperate, and at close quarters. In many instances, the soldiers would fire the revolvers right into the breast of the Indians and after their pistol was emptied, some were seen to throw their revolver away and grab their carbines, not having time to return into their holsters. In my opinion, if Reno had remained in the timber a short time longer, not a man would have made his escape. The Indians were about ten to one to us."
Your turn Joe
AZ Ranger |
| Benteen |
Posted - November 24 2009 : 10:09:55 PM
I'd go so far to say that some were cowards. I hold not one feeling in my soul that any war, or battle is perpetrated with "honor", just ask those who have to do the deeds. There is no honor in that. Just as there is no honor in any war or battle, nor the men who fight in them. Wars and battles are hell, and every bit as fiendish and evil as those who wish honor could be bestowed on every man who ran or was the cause of anothers death. Perhaps the title "To Hell with Honor" was more appropriate in any battle or any war and applied equally to any era when one is confronted with ones own death. Carl Gustav Jung understood this all to well when he penned this: "When it (the shadow [the evil of our soul]) appears as an archetype…it is quite within the possibility for a man to recognize the relative evil of his nature, but it is a rare and shattering experience for him to gaze into the face of absolute evil."
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| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 24 2009 : 9:47:25 PM
az, in the name of heaven pick up a book. Any book other than the one or two you have read thus far. They ran!!! They were scared out of their wits. They suffered from the shock of mental debilitation brought on by the shock of the close proximity of the warriors and their firepower.
What happened to these men does not make them cowards. It makes them victims and very human. The lack of leadership, prescribed military tactics, the "every man for himself" mentality by Reno reduced these disciplined soldiers to an undisciplined rabble. The descriptions are not pretty but, nevertheless true.
It is you inability to comprehend the psychological ramifications combat duress and post trauma stress that forces you to believe that I am shamelessly critical of the soldiers rather than understand what really happened.
PS, thus far, there have been only two posters who viewpoints are antithetical to mine, you and dc. I can live with that. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 22 2009 : 8:59:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Gee az, we all know that they didn't stay in the timber. They ran out like frightened school girls, where have you been?
I guess you didn't read some of the Indian accounts. You characterization of troopers is deplorable. The troopers are required to follow orders. Only a pathetic person would describe those troopers following orders as "They ran out like frightened school girls"
You got to be real proud of your statement there Joe. It will be here for all to see your opinion of the troopers following their orders when outnumbered and yet you wonder why some are against your opinions.
AZ Ranger
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| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 22 2009 : 5:58:32 PM
Gee az, we all know that they didn't stay in the timber. They ran out like frightened school girls, where have you been? |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 17 2009 : 8:13:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
Brother, I swear I don't get your point. Break it down a little further please.
If you can see the contradiction of those two sentences I can't break it down any further. Either they stayed in the timber or not. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 17 2009 : 08:13:04 AM
Brother, I swear I don't get your point. Break it down a little further please. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 16 2009 : 08:53:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by joe wiggs
I made the second statement but, where did the first one come from?
If I didn't make it who did?
Posted - November 13 2009 : 9:41:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May I add another thought in agreement with Benteen's perspective? We know now, hindsight being 20/20, that a small portion of warriors were left behind to watch Reno. Contrary to those that believe Reno did all that he could do, the Indians were pretty much satisfied that the "squaws and old folk" could have handled the blue coats who ignominiously fled than dug themselves into the ground.
Derudio and others, could not have know that the way back was safe. Particularity when one understands the mental shock and debilitation they must have suffered during the wild fracas, dense smoke, and howling Indians involved in Reno's "charge."
Also, contrary to your last remark AZ, they did not remain in the timber. They did so only long enough to hope, nay pray, that it was safe to rejoin the command, which they eventually did.
Its in your post so you tell us how someone else makes the first statement "they did not remain in the timber" and the second statement "They did so"? |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 14 2009 : 11:10:41 AM
I made the second statement but, where did the first one come from?
If I didn't make it who did? |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - November 14 2009 : 03:43:32 AM
What does DeRudio state in regards to all the Indians leaving. If they all left why did any remain in the timber?
Also, contrary to your last remark AZ, they did not remain in the timber. They did so only long enough to hope, nay pray, that it was safe to rejoin the command, which they eventually did.
Joe your second sentence contradicts your first sentence. Where do you see any length of type in my statement "why did any remain in the timber". I believe the civilians remained by choice thinking it a good place to be.
See Joe it you that constantly attacks with comments like " contrary to your last remark AZ" then the error of your statements are pointed out and you don't like it. The simple solution is to quit making remarks like "contrary to your last remark AZ"
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| joe wiggs |
Posted - November 13 2009 : 9:41:55 PM
May I add another thought in agreement with Benteen's perspective? We know now, hindsight being 20/20, that a small portion of warriors were left behind to watch Reno. Contrary to those that believe Reno did all that he could do, the Indians were pretty much satisfied that the "squaws and old folk" could have handled the blue coats who ignominiously fled than dug themselves into the ground.
Derudio and others, could not have know that the way back was safe. Particularity when one understands the mental shock and debilitation they must have suffered during the wild fracas, dense smoke, and howling Indians involved in Reno's "charge."
Also, contrary to your last remark AZ, they did not remain in the timber. They did so only long enough to hope, nay pray, that it was safe to rejoin the command, which they eventually did. |
| Benteen |
Posted - November 13 2009 : 09:28:56 AM
Because they were trapped by circumstance. I don't think that i'd want to be scalped by a woman or a child, would you? And if, just if they were in the timber/brush and could not see out to where the battalion went, with all the smoke and dust, would you have ventured out? |
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