| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brent |
Posted - September 07 2007 : 11:46:05 AM
"Among them 2 Majors and 4 Captains" (as I read in Connell) who had been temporarily reassigned from the 7th for other duty. Custer apparently wanted them back before the LBH campaign, but was turned down by the War Department. Do we know who these men were? And perhaps more important--would they have REPLACED a certain pair of officers when independent commands were assigned that day? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 21 2008 : 8:33:55 PM
I've always wondered if Benteen's actions were in response to his extreme jealousy of Custer's "celebrity" status and, his receiving an unfortunate mis-communication of what was actually occurring in the battle.
Let me explain the "jealousy" allegation. Custer, a younger man than Benteen, achieved greater military success and, was held in greater esteem due (I think)to Custer's' amazing ability to re-invent himself when necessary. After all, he transformed himself from a 23 year old "Boy General" to an " Indian fighter" as he entered his late 30's. He understood how to play the public pulse in establishing a notoriety much as today's celebrities establish their own 15 minutes of fame.
Also, both kanipe and Martini made oral statements that would lead the listener to conclude that Custer was hitting the village like a lightening bolt and killing everybody. This information leaves the white haired warrior, perhaps, feeling that he and his men have been purposely left out of the "fun and frolic". I know this sounds ridiculous when one knows the outcome of the battle. However, it makes sense when we realize that every member of this expedition was confident that they could run through the entire Sioux Nation with just the 7th. Cavalry.
Or, I could be all wrong for Benteen was certainly a cantankerous old soul who found disparaging things to say about everyone he knew. He was very much like another hard to deal with individual who occasionally posts here. 
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| clw |
Posted - June 21 2008 : 11:54:47 AM
If it weren't for Weir prodding Benteen every chance he got on the way down Ash Creek, who knows when he would have shown up. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 19 2008 : 5:59:47 PM
Absolutely Brent!!! Weir reacted to a stimulus (firing) in a manner that was reasonable and acceptable to him. When he arrived at his destination, he was influenced by new stimuli such as viewing a mass of Indians through binoculars that, suddenly, came rushing and screaming towards the startled group. Weir and the others retreated, in haste, and returned to Reno Hill. However, they did respond to the firing! Although Weir's actions failed to save Custer's command, at least he tried something. The merits of his attempt should be judge by history, not us. To label any soldier an "idiot" for attempting to come to the aid of his or her comrades is simple a bizarre perspective that is beyond my comprehension.
Lastly, to call that action mutinous yet, make no comment, acknowledgment, or reference to the entire command that subsequently followed Weir during his "mutiny" mean exactly what?
Weir drank himself to death a few years after the battle. Perhaps he desired to drown the harsh memory of fleeing away (although an understandable move) leaving his comrades behind. Who knows. However, I salute his effort for at least he tried. |
| Brent |
Posted - June 19 2008 : 1:01:03 PM
My take is that Weir had enough with nothing even being done to TRY to get to Custer and he took it upon himself to do SOMETHING. Nothing remotely mutinous about it. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 18 2008 : 5:49:00 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Dark Cloud
That is Miles' opinion. He was stroking Custer's memory for his own elevation.
Joe Wiggs
I hate to point out your grievous errors D.C. but, you leave me no choice. General Nelson Miles was an exemplary officer and had no need to "stroke" anyone's memory to elevate himself. Please explain to the board how this process of stroking/elevation played out.
Dark Cloud
There is no evidence Benteen sulked. None. Rather, he'd have LOVED to have saved Custer, which would have had all the upsides and none of the downsides (like being shot himself and by his own men) for deserting their fellows.
Joe Wiggs
I agree emphatically with you. There is no evidence that Benteen sulked nor has anyone, to my knowledge, has inferred that he "sulked." What he did do was to choose to not enter the valley and rescue the "stragglers" left behind by Reno. Which leaves us with this thought, who ever said Benteen ever "sulked" besides you?
Dark Cloud
This is based upon the assumption that Weir was concerned with saving Custer from the morass on to explain his near mutiny. Weir had no reason to fear for Custer at that point, but wanted to be in on the kill for the write up. Confronted with reality later, he slunk back quick enough. Benteen lying down while horses watered was not a great photo op in retrospect, but there's no evidence he delayed beyond the needs of his horses and men. No water for sixteen hours and a harsh trail beyond that of Custer's. He arrived on the trot ready to charge or whatever was needed with the train - his responsibility and an ongoing Marx Bros. movie - under control and protection.
Joe Wiggs
I'm not going to generate a lot of effort attempting to dissect this mish-mash except to say the following.
A. If Weir committed "mutiny" when he led out did Benteen and Reno commit mutiny when they followed him?
B. What source do you have that the men and horses went without a drop of water for sixteen hours?
Dark Cloud
If an idiot officer instead of Benteen had raced to wherever Custer was, they'd have arrived strung out if at all, and the train would likely have been pillaged after Reno was clobbered and Custer surrounded, unable to go on the offensive with wounded and horseless any more than Reno was.
Joe Wiggs
According to your rationalization any officer who may have attempted a rescue is an "idiot." You may or may not be right, more importantly, your perspective is based on no evidence whatsoever. therefore, one must ask, why do you make such a statement with such conviction!?
Dark Cloud
If he had not stopped for Reno, that WOULD have been an offense.
Joe Wiggs
Benteen could have stopped for Reno, did stop for Reno, and should have stopped for Reno. The issue is that he did not have to stay there for over an hour while men where fighting for their lives.
Dark Cloud
Whatever Custer did, it was not logical nor consistent with either offense or defense, and this is why others have to be accused in order to deflect attention from the fact Custer did not attack across a reportedly thinly defended ford into the village, which he had tasked Reno with doing with less men an hour earlier.
Joe Wiggs
I did not realize that you were an authority on military tactics. Who did you study under, Upton? For one who races across thread after thread demanding quotes, evidence, and sworn testimony you can certainly come up with some real lulu's.
This effort is not intended to belittle you nor to be vindictive. You really need to follow your own, good advise and make comments based on rationality and research. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 18 2008 : 08:29:26 AM
No, not different perspectives. What you said was incorrect. Nobody is allowed to tell his story in his own way at trial or inquest. And what was taken out of context? Consider the liklihood that Martin's testimony is far more correct than the stories he told later: embellished, and always different, the stigmata of falsehood.
I don't know that Benteen's testimony contradicted almost everything he wrote about the battle elsewhere. Give an example. |
| Brent |
Posted - June 18 2008 : 06:46:37 AM
And that's the part of Custer's "plan" that I have the most trouble with. To accomplish that mission, Benteens entire command was not needed. Just to see "IF" any Indians were there required but a few scouts. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 7:45:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Surely Benteen had his assignment before he left Custer. for me;
I feel that you are absolutely correct as to Benteen's assignment. He was to respond to the southern portion of the the Little Big horn Valley and make certain that no Indians were moving in that direction. In order to accomplish that mission the intervening ridges between Benteen's "oblique left" and the valley needed to be checked out as well. |
| clw |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 12:55:07 PM
quote:
I don't know what you're talking about. Martin's testimony at the RCOI was the result of some of the vaguest and worst questioning ever accorded a witness. It hardly shows any signs of structure at all, just a shotgun approach.
OK. Different perpsective, but the point remains that Martin wasn't allowed to tell his story in his own way and a lot of things got left out or taken out of context. And of course we know that Benteen's tesimony contradicted almost everything he wrote about the battle elsewhere. I wonder why?
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| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 11:38:15 AM
I don't know what you're talking about. Martin's testimony at the RCOI was the result of some of the vaguest and worst questioning ever accorded a witness. It hardly shows any signs of structure at all, just a shotgun approach. He was asked, by the way, if he was told he would meet anyone on the way back. Openended. A good time to mention that he had, in fact, met Boston. But that had to wait 32 years. Lee doesn't help him towards that important - to Lee's case - revelation, and Martin had previously said "brothers" to suggest Boston was there when he left.
Benteen DID inquire about Custer right off of Reno, and after gathering the command and train, the responsible move, they did try to divine his presence. But there was no obligation or cause to risk dividing the command in the face of the biggest village anyone there had seen to search for Custer's near half of the regiment. He could take care of himself, supposedly. |
| clw |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 09:50:50 AM
We'll never know the actual validity of what Martin said at various times, but I'm convinced that his testimony at the RCOI would have been different if his examination hadn't been structured to extract information in a way that produced the desired response.
As to Benteen not knowing where Custer was, it would seem to me that Martin could have taken him there if he'd been asked. And another thing, Benteen was told to report when he'd returned from his left obique. He was only about a half hour behind Custer when he returned to the trail and he had to have seen the dust of the rest of the command, yet he made no effort to commuicate. He was third in command with an entire battalion -- you'd think he'd consider that it might be a good idea to try and touch base with the rest of the gang, eh? |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 08:12:16 AM
Regarding orders under stress and in the field, note the detailed and highly informative stuff Buford sent Reynolds under far more stress at Gettysburg. Yes, to a superior officer, but incredibly helpful info. It would not have killed Cooke or Custer to take a few minutes to lay out the plan, were there a plan, in writing to Benteen.
Yes, I too think Custer had afterthoughts in his orders to Benteen early on. What does that tell you, given how soon the need was felt to send them? And, in any case, could have been precluded by saying 'go to where you can see the LBH valley, send word if you engage, return to command if nothing there.'
One of the reasons I try not to accept anything after 1879 that appears for the first time is that people, subconsciously or maliciously, will warp the tale to fit current needs. Normal, I believe. I think Boston was there when Martin left, given Martin said "brothers" at the RCOI, and does not mention meeting him enroute for 32 years, when he changes the story from Benteen mentioning the wounded horse to Boston. I reasonably expect that people's memories of oral orders to Benteen and Reno became more detailed as time moved on. |
| Brent |
Posted - June 17 2008 : 06:09:03 AM
I don't remember which officer it was, but he reported that as part of Custers verbal orders to Benteen, it was to go searching and if nothing found, HURRY and rejoin the command?? Or something along those lines?
And I think that possibly the actual words in the order were Cookes--not Custers. Custer says to Cooke something like "UH-OH, big Village. Get Benteen and the train back right away" And Cooke pens the actual words. All done in real time on the field, not from behind a desk. |
| prolar |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 10:59:39 PM
Surely Benteen had his assignment before he left Custer. The messages to go on to other ridges were after thoughts as Custer saw how the terrain developed. Whether from Boston or visual sightings of dust clouds, Custer must have known that Benteen had returned to the trail. Otherwise how was Martin to find him? If your remark about Reno and Benteen hoping Custer would be killed is intended for me; I have never made such a claim. If you see "bring packs" as meaning find Reno and leave them there, you are reading a lot into the message. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 10:08:54 PM
Benteen's first orders were to go the first ridge, then the second, then then the third to see up the LBH valley. His orders were to report if he saw nothing up the valley, then return to the command.
Orders from Martin nuked those, although Benteen'd already ceased and was returning, and the packs became his responsibility. Custer knew Benteen hadn't watered since the night before and would have to, just as he had.
Most Custerphiles think bring packs referred solely to ammo. But dividing the train in the face of a large enemy into more easily destroyed units and risk losing all the ammo isn't like Custer's concern, considering he hadn't fired a bullet when Martin left. He'd just seen the whole village and would logically be concerened for the ammo - which, with grain supplies and medical stuff and the ammo and a favorite horse expressly for Custer, they would clearly need - vanishing into enemy firearms or, at least, closed to them. Just like the accusation Reno and Benteen hoped Custer would be killed is easily erased by the obvious fact that saving Custer had all the plusses and none of the negatives, and that this would be obvious to Reno and Benteen.
Again, Martin embellished at the years went on.
I'm a proud citizen of the US, Wiggs. I don't pretend to be what I am not, like a soldier, as some have done. Or a teacher, as some have done. Or a cop, as some have done. Well, Wiggs, anyway.
Nor do I tongue bathe those I'd want to impress, nor do I fabricate a past at will, nor do I lie (well, some, but not here). I also rather cheerfully admit my numerous errors and boneheaded postings. You can't say as much. I invite anyone to read the Benteen's Orders thread if I am doubted. Or go to the thread Larsen mentions in it where Wiggs makes up stuff. |
| prolar |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 7:41:17 PM
Benteen had been given his orders before starting his mission. To check upstream, report what he found and return to the command.Be quick could mean do what you were told, now.The pack train was not mentioned at all DC. Most people think that bring packs refers to ammo. We don't know what Custer told Martin, Custer could hardly be expected to know the verbal capabilities of every man in the regiment. It was Cooke who decided that a written command was needed.
If Martin was not capable of conveying an oral message, why did Benteen assign him as a headquarters messenger on this all important day? |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 6:57:22 PM
Once again, Dark Cloud, you have denigrated yourself and this forum. To boldly state, "I'm not a soldier which I proudly announce periodically' is the nadir of your demeaning threads. Over 4,000 men and women have made the ultimate sacrifice as soldiers. I am thankful for the many patriots who reside within our Nation to offset the few who are "proud" not to serve. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 6:26:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
I'm glad you know what you meant. I do not even yet. It's not mocking the words, it's specificity, and it's the sort of things people dealing with history and military matters strive for, regardless of style.
Joe Wiggs
Please elaborate the ability to discuss the Battle of the Little Big Horn with "specificity" when there were no White survivors? The only witnesses are Native Americans. However, as you so assiduously refrain over and over again, their testimony is valueless. Another thing, when did it become a requirement to enumerate individuals who compose a group? Isn't that what they make telephone books for? You know what is really interesting, everyone else understood what Brent was referring to. How come you needed specifics? Oh, I get it, you understood you were just being a tad facetious, Huh?
Dark Cloud
Of course the note came from Custer. It was signed by Cooke. Unlike actual "orders", it contained no specifics whatsoever. No clue where the commander was or, more important, would be. No clue that Reno was in combat. No clue what was envisioned for Benteen to do except bring the packs as quickly as prudence allowed, presumably to an area where various units could access them near the village. In aggregate with Martin and Kanipe's oral descriptions, there was no indication of fiasco a'brewing. None.
Joe Wiggs
Please read the above post once again for clarification. I have given you a plausible possibility that Benteen knew the general direction that Custer traveled because every book written about the subject makes reference to "Custer's trail" made by hundreds of horses trampling through the tall grass. Not to mention the sound of firing heard by everyone but Benteen and Reno.
Dark Cloud
Wiggs, all your posts are still up, most contradicting what you're trying to pass off today as your own, whereas they're just retooled phrases from others you now append to yourself, as if your past didn't exist, and new personalities can be assumed without notice. You can NEVER escape what you've posted, and nobody who reads it will waste time on you.
Joe Wiggs
The only comment I'll make here is that how fortunate I am to have a semblance of intelligence so that I am capable of participation in discussions without getting personal. Why don't you try it for a much needed change of pace.
Dark Cloud
Trying to pass yourself off as someone else entirely (using last names of respected families affiliated with this event), after pretending to various occupations you lied about, wasn't a wise alternative. Smearing others - like respected officers of the past whom you have no standing to wait upon, much less denigrate - followed by nauseating praise of them to worm your way into someone's, anyone's, friendship is just disgusting.
Joe Wiggs
I have been the same person for "Lo" these many years. What on earth are you talking about?
P.S. Brent, your post was informative and comprehensive. Please try to understand Dark Cloud. His ego is so monumental that if you disagree with his philosophies in any shape or manner he becomes a little incensed. He's really not all that bad a guy. He just takes a little getting use to.
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| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 3:50:44 PM
I'm not a soldier, which I proudly announce periodically, so I fail to see your point. It's not merely up to soldiers to be concerned about fact vs. fiction and spin. It IS up to historians, though, and those who profess to be concerned for "truth." Connell lists options, lets others decide, doesn't care much, being a tale teller and novelist. The others have presumptions to historian status, and should be judged as they choose to see themselves. Even here, Gray will announce speculation as such. Michno is bogus, and Fox less demanding than his accolytes.
It's fairly foolish to dash to the sound of firing without knowing what is going on, Forrest's easily quotable cliche to the contrary. Benteen could have only the dimmest idea of where the village was in relation to the river, or its extent, all of which he'd need to know beforehand to assist. All the people familiar with the location were not with him, but with Reno and Custer. It would be the definition of inefficient even in the 19th century to rush to the commander to receive orders to do something else.
"And quick meant just that--quick." Actually, back then it can only mean as fast as prudent, something Custer mentions in his book, so as to arrive with stock able to function. In this case it meant: Quick, drag the anchor of the pack train, the item mentioned twice and of blatant concern. If you insist upon viewing the note as orders worthy of a famous general officer, we're in disagreement. If that was Custer's command style, he stunk.
"1530 hrs.
Benteen, on east bank of river heading north to hit big village on west bank from north, Reno now in contact at south end on west. Bring packs to best protected access point, send what support you can to Reno/me. Expedite." Something like that would have taken twenty seconds to write, although I don't advocate it. But he didn't actually know what to do, and just said come on, things will shake out. |
| Brent |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 2:09:10 PM
DC: If this were a forum for West Point grads only,or if you had to show 20 years of military service at the rank of Major or above just to post-- you might have a point.
But it isn't. IT's for anyone who has anything to say. And as far as I know, none of the authors I mentioned (Mincho, Gray, Fox) had any sort of genuine military standing. Nor did Connell.
They wrote BOOKs based on their research and put them out there for "folks" like you and me to read and believe, or read and ridicule.
And as for where Custer was or would be--he wasn't on the far side of the moon. For location purposes only, it would have been pretty easy to have followed his trail (or the sounds of firing) to find out. As for what Benteen was expected to do when he got to Custer--he would have been told by the commander when he got there. Commanders do get to do that sort of thing--.
And quick meant just that--quick. Quick to help corral escaping Indians or quick to prevent a fiasco. What Benteen knew or supposed he knew ahead of time isn't really relevant, He'd find out when he got there--quickly. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 10:48:15 AM
I'm glad you know what you meant. I do not even yet. It's not mocking the words, it's specificity, and it's the sort of things people dealing with history and military matters strive for, regardless of style.
Of course the note came from Custer. It was signed by Cooke. Unlike actual "orders", it contained no specifics whatsoever. No clue where the commander was or, more important, would be. No clue that Reno was in combat. No clue what was envisioned for Benteen to do except bring the packs as quickly as prudence allowed, presumably to an area where various units could access them near the village. In aggregate with Martin and Kanipe's oral descriptions, there was no indication of fiasco a'brewing. None.
Wiggs, all your posts are still up, most contradicting what you're trying to pass off today as your own, whereas they're just retooled phrases from others you now append to yourself, as if your past didn't exist, and new personalities can be assumed without notice. You can NEVER escape what you've posted, and nobody who reads it will waste time on you.
Trying to pass yourself off as someone else entirely (using last names of respected families affiliated with this event), after pretending to various occupations you lied about, wasn't a wise alternative. Smearing others - like respected officers of the past whom you have no standing to wait upon, much less denigrate - followed by nauseating praise of them to worm your way into someone's, anyone's, friendship is just disgusting. |
| Brent |
Posted - June 16 2008 : 07:03:38 AM
Not a problem mocking my use of "LBH folks". I know what I meant. And if nothing else, you will NEVER see me mocking the choice of words used by others in the forum. Too many ways to say things and everyone has their own style.
Now as to Benteen--
It's pretty clear to me--as it MUST have been to Benteen--that the be quick order came from Custer, not Reno. And it would have meant not just to wander on back and see what's happening, but try to join up with the person--that is, the COMMANDER--who sent for me. Once he joined up with Reno, he made no further effort to do that. Benteen saw a lot of Indians, saw a whipped Reno, and decided to stay put until finally prodded by some who felt the command ought to be doing SOMETHING. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 15 2008 : 6:07:37 PM
Dark Cloud, are you so hard minded that you are incapable of recognizing the complexity of human actions, thoughts, and being. Benteen was superb on Reno Hill. He also chose not to come to the aid of the soldiers he observed being wiped out in the valley. The second point is a fact, not a judgment. Reno's departure from the timber has been unanimously agreed upon as less than honorable yet, his Civil War record was highly commendable. Men react differently under different circumstances.
Neither you nor I can possibly know what Custer would have done. Admit that one factor and you will had trod far upon the road of sensibility and rationality. If I were a betting man, which I am not, I would bet that you have not taken into consideration a military movement called a "Pincer" movement. This tactic was known to Custer, Reno, and Benteen. This movement, under correct circumstances, not only renders support but, also renders havoc among an Indian village. One type of support is as valid as another, despite your insistence to the contrary.
Oh, one other thing. I found it extremely puzzling that you alone were unable to comprehend Brent's referral to "LBH Folk." Your request for qualifications was unusual. LBH Folk would be anyone who has an interest in this battle, that would include you also or you would not be on the boards. Did you really not understand that or, were just be facetious and/or witty?
"He deserted his men in the field, he was a convicted liar."
Your definition of "[deserting" must include dying along side the very men you deserted, otherwise your statement is incomprehensible. Custer was convicted of several military charges and paid the price for it. Please submit the evidence for the charge of "lying" that was a part of the proceedings. Since you can not know his state of mind when he testified to his actions, your labeling him a "liar" is but another "unsubstantiated" [/b] Dark Cloud truism.. .
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| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 15 2008 : 5:15:11 PM
Wiggs, nee Pohanka, formerly Realbird, once Joseph Wiggs, now just good ole Joe, still a doofus.
People who want to laugh are directed to page 3 and the large thread on Benteen's Orders. Wiggs drowning in his imbecilities and not knowing it. The below is rendered by Larsen on one of Wigg's incompetencies, which Wiggs to this day cannot yet admit:
THE DENIAL: "I did not charge Benteen with failure to render aid to the troopers left behind on the valley floor."
THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT: "Benteen failed to render aid to 10 to 12 soldiers that HE obsevred being slaughtered in the valley."
Compare that laff riot with his effort today. Let's see....
"Benteen showed extraordinary courage and military presence of mind on Reno Hill. His mere presence composed the demoralized troopers and rejuvenated others. Benteen was "scapegoated" for not responding to the sound of "fire" which, "some people" believed he should have done so." Why, yes. In fact, you yourself say so above. Trying out a new lap dance for applause, are we Wiggs? Sorry, your hypocrisy is forever on the Web.
"However, to infer that he did not do so because he was under the "command of Reno" does not hold merit as this station of command was merely a technicality." Really? Trot that by combat officers. A superior officer asked him to stay, he did.
"Testimony is abundant that Benteen did pretty much as he desired on Reno Hill which was fortunate. He did not respond to the sound of firing not because Reno was in command but, because he chose not to so." What is considered a "response" to the sound of firing? Whatever you claim it would be, why is such a response appropriate? Is Custer held to the same standard?
The note merely said hustle everyone to the party because it's a big village, protect the packs. And what "first note"? There was only one.
Yes, they could have pulled ammo packs forward. Why would they? Custer hadn't fired a thing and wouldn't need them for awhile. How much faster could the mules go over that ground? Is dividing forces in the face of the enemy smart?
The answer to the mystery you alone see and cannot solve is actually the second part of the sentence. Custer would have done the same because he didn't run to the sound of firing nor support an attack as promised. He'd deserted his own men in the field, was a convicted liar. That's how I know or anyone could know. |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 15 2008 : 12:18:25 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Dark Cloud
Very few military men actually think that about Benteen. I can say "very few" with the same basis as others use "many respected LBH folk." He was under the command of Reno.
Benteen showed extraordinary courage and military presence of mind on Reno Hill. His mere presence composed the demoralized troopers and rejuvenated others. Benteen was "scapegoated" for not responding to the sound of "fire" which, "some people" believed he should have done so. However, to infer that he did not do so because he was under the "command of Reno" does not hold merit as this station of command was merely a technicality. Testimony is abundant that Benteen did pretty much as he desired on Reno Hill which was fortunate. He did not respond to the sound of firing not because Reno was in command but, because he chose not to so.
Dark Cloud
He was NOT ordered TO Custer.
Joe Wiggs
The note was an order to respond to whom, if not Custer? Sgt. Kanipe was order, by Tom Custer, to go back to the pack train and hurry up the packs. From Weir's point, Custer could have easily observed funnels of clouds kicked by the dust of the pack train when he sent the second note by Martin. In fact, Boston Custer passed Martin in route to Cedar Coulée were he met the command. How can we surmise this? Because, unlike the first note, the second one was specifically addressed to Benteen!!! Finally, when engaging a "Big Village" one needs ammunition packs, not clothing, oats, and kitchen utensils. Thus, the arrival OF AMMUNITION COULD BE FACILITATED BY "CUTTING" OUT THE AMMUNITION MULES FROM THE REST.
Dark Cloud
Reno had been defeated badly with 3 companies but survived. No reason to believe that Custer, with 5 and even if similarly defeated, would not as well. In any case, it was NOT his responsibility NOR Reno's under those circumstances. You can be sure Custer would have done the same, because he sure didn't rush to the sound of Reno's firing or to his aid, or much of anything.
Joe Wiggs
Could you please share your evidence that that Custer "would have done the same!" You don't have any do you. In a moment of attempting to substantiate your point you said something that is patently false, unsubstantial, and perhaps slightly bizarre. That's O.K.!
That's what this board has been about. Writing threads which represent opinions based on probability without the use of personal barbs of denigration and pompous superiority. When an individual slips, like you did, be a little more emphatic and a whole lot less judgmental. |
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