| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - April 06 2006 : 10:27:21 AM
Unasked, I agree with AZ almost totally in his recent Springfield Carbine post. But it deserves its own thread.
In support, I cheerfully steal this from a Markland posting on the LBHA board. It's from the non-official (but might as well have been)Army-Navy Journal well after the Custer fight.
"We all know that it takes from six to nine months' careful and intelligent drilling to turn out out a good cavalry man; we know that horses must hear the discharge of firearms every day in order to make them perfectly quiet and controllable under fire, and that the aim mounted must be quick and sure to be effective. It will not do to wait until the horse cease champing the bit, and becomes like a wooden horse, before the fire is delivered, but, like the shot of an expert at a bird on the wing, it must be prompt and deadly. The position of a cavalry man in the saddle is too conspicuous a target to admit of the slow method of prolonged aiming, such as can be allowed dismounted; he must keep moving, and halt and fire immediately, otherwise either himself or his horse goes under."
Without going into depressing detail, we can all agree that whatever the 7th was, well-trained after being subject to careful and intelligent drilling it was not. The 1876 US Army was a victim of the public's mass distaste for more war and its own institutional assumptions of being the best ever in 1864 and 1865 and therefore the best ever more by association. The experienced CW officers had to know this - had to. The 7th couldn't get a packtrain right, couldn't control its horses, couldn't hit the backside of today's average American, and only certain members were good enough to hunt game and hit anything at all. As a military unit, it was dismal, but Custer maintained a glorious image based on greatly exaggerated and dubious accomplishment, primarily because he was always on the make and needed that for his image.
Really, the Wa****a should have been a cakewalk given the huge odds in the 7th's favor, yet.....
As to Reno leaving the timber.
They couldn't stay there because it's an officer's job to visualize the immediate future, a thrilling prospect at that point for Reno in that it consisted of:
a. It was a very hot day, and maybe one of the fires set by the Indians would catch and burn them out. Due to exquisite training, horses and troopers both would remain calm and professional in a grass and tree conflagation while under increasing enemy fire......
b. .....that was about to completely surround them.
c. An added deleterious feature of the position were those high, enemy encrusted bluffs just across the river allowing them to easily pick off horses and men.
d. This one may actually be found in various military manuals under "common sense." Then again, may not...... But, it was probably a good idea to discuss a retreat before ammo became an issue, rather than "after."
e. "After" included the additional situational quality of "night", during which, of course, all officers knew the 7th excelled performing intricate manuevers, because they were so well trained, even in the midst of a forest fire as their now infantry jumped over their dead horses and ran, unburdened by weapons for which no ammo existed. There's a hot plan...
e. The promised support had just disappeared north with a sincere and emotional wave, and there visually appeared to be no crossing possibility for many miles, which meant no support whatever.
f. The arguably large and growing larger numbers of peevish warriors rendered any possible manuever of the inferior numbers of the 7th rather comic. Comic in a distant sense from what Reno had to have felt.
g. Of course, it's all Reno's fault for not riding through the village unhurt several times while Custer adjusted his saddles and moseyed on down to find a crossing. Custer's genius was betrayed! |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joe wiggs |
Posted - June 27 2008 : 8:33:27 PM
Good point. It's time to get out of Dodge when you're the only player on the field. your chances of winning are diminished a great deal! |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - September 30 2007 : 6:51:12 PM
I would say we panic because the rest of my team is running.
AZ Ranger |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - July 29 2007 : 12:48:46 PM
Brent, you have touched upon a critical part of this battle that is not often seriously discussed, particularly in the immediate aftermath of the battle. A great many of the soldiers did become "unglued."
unanticipated fire power and close proximate of the warriors resulted in panic among the troops. The warriors had sufficient arms to pick off troopers while remaining secluded in the underbrush and ample foliage that permeated the battlefield.
As more men fell dead or wounded, the remaining soldiers began leaving their positions in the skirmish line to seek safety. As one sage put it, "we don't run because we panic, we panic because we run." |
| Brent |
Posted - July 29 2007 : 10:54:51 AM
Don't I recall the main good points about the Springfield being it's long range and excellent stopping power?? What good though is a rifle like that in the hands of troops many (or even most) of whom couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door at 100 yards in target practice--much less in combat when targets are moving and shooting back?
But anyway--I don't think that the 7th was dismal--just "fair" at best. And when confronted with opponents who didn't run as expected and who fought back (and who outnumbered them maybe 3 to one) they became unglued. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - April 28 2006 : 6:09:45 PM
Along this line is there known cavalry to be better than the 7th? |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - April 18 2006 : 11:10:14 AM
I probably should have said "presence in a battle" is pointless if you can't hit anything should the enemy turn and fight. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - April 17 2006 : 11:23:41 PM
they weren't good riders
Well some were good enough to race a mile,plunge down an embankment,swim a river and climb a 200 foot escarpment while under close scrutiny by cleaver brandishing amateur surgeons. Horses in general try to stick together and follow the lead of dominant horses. If the officers and enough NCOs had good horses the others would follow and the trooper only had to stay in on their horse. The panic of the horses running into the village indicates poor rider on a untrained horse. The same thing happens to a lesser degree on people that have never ridden and go on a trail ride. They are not good riders but the horses are trained to follow the leader.
and this was all proven in this battle of few Indian casualties I read somewhere that Gall's wife and kids were killed.He must have been very unlucky to lose his family to such bad shots.Or is it possible that there was far more casualties in the village than was ever admitted?Did the Indians themselves know?Did they have a numbering system beyond "heap big". Wild I agree with you I have to believe there were more casualties than has been reported and more deaths from injuries that occurred at LBH.
Manuever is pointless if you can't hit anything,
If the enemy appears on your flank or rear you're not going to hang about to find out how good his marksmanship is. DC retreat is a maneuver and it worked quite well and it didn't requiring firing either. Being a poor shot at over 200 yards is much different than saying a trooper couldn't hit anything. No matter what your sights are set at or what sight picture you have at 10 yards or less muzzle indexing would do the job. At that range the number of Indains becomes the deciding factor not whether you can hit them or not.
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| AZ Ranger |
Posted - April 17 2006 : 10:58:49 PM
Wild makes valid points. DC, I think you are right but in the sense that the 7th was on a par with the majority of regiments. The lack of training was an Army-wide problem, not only a 7th problem. Remember, Crook's men fired off something like 25,000 rounds and did not account for many Indian dead. And from what I have read on the Rosebud (admittedly little), most of the Indian casualties were caused by either the Indian auxiliaries or the civilians and infantrymen. Perhaps the Ninth and Tenth may have had an advantage in that they had higher retention rates of enlisted men, as well as more field and combat service; but still, they had the same limitations on ammunition to practice with, as well as the responsibility to be cheap labor at the various posts (as did all the western regiments).
Best of wishes,
Billy
Billy I think what you stated answers my question on why the officers weren't concerned. It was the norm for post CW army to have mostly untrained troops. If you didn't like then you could resign your comission.
Thanks Billy
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| AZ Ranger |
Posted - April 17 2006 : 10:53:34 PM
Don't mean to be hard on you Wild but have been gone for a few days patrolling and can't help but make a few comments.
1/Reno's 130 men were prepared to follow their leader into the village. They stopped short of the village by 500 yards or more.
2 The skirmish line was held in the face of growing opposition.The skirmish disintegrated into clumps of troopers firing wildly.
3/The withdrawal to the timber was well executed with no hint of panic. Retreat is easier than charge.
4/The position in the timber was held. Not as long as it could have been held.
5/The retreat was not initially a stampede.That because no one knew they were leaving, Then panic set in when they saw some leaving without them.
6/Reno's units defeated with 40%casualties still responded to orders and somehow got themselves advancing towards Weir point.
They advanced because the Indians were gone and then retreated when the Indians showed up.
7/The withdrawal from Weirpoint was well executed covered by a rearguard. Only because of officer realized what was about to happen and used his company. It was a series of all companies providing cover to rear.
8/Reno hill was stoutly defended. The Indians never tried to overrun with all the warriors at once.
9/Even at the LSH area showed no evidence of wholesale panic.
The 7th at all times responded with enormous courage to the orders of their officers.If anything was dismal it was the leadership of Custer. The Indians state different.
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| wILD I |
Posted - April 17 2006 : 5:11:04 PM
Wild: "Let's call it DC.The 7th was a dysfunctional shambles.When the pressure came on it fell asunder.Except for the miracle on Reno Hill." Except for the work of Benteen and a very few other officers,
It's amazing the effect a round to the temple will have.Transformed the 7th into a unit with some credibility.
I know how much you love the bagpipes DC.Well we had a military parade here on Sunday to commemorate the rising of 1916 and the massed pipe bands heading the parade struck up Garryowen as they passed the reviewing stand.I could not help thinking that at least Custer left us one great marching tune. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - April 13 2006 : 2:41:58 PM
Regarding Gall, who knows? How could anyone who fired which bullets? The Scouts were stealing horses, not directly attacking the village, supposedly. Except for the ones directly with Reno like Bloody Knife.
Page 23, Benteen's Orders, Wild: "Let's call it DC.The 7th was a dysfunctional shambles.When the pressure came on it fell asunder.Except for the miracle on Reno Hill." Except for the work of Benteen and a very few other officers, it could be true. They were a dismal military unit as far as skill level, but they didn't fall apart, and this solely due to Benteen in the main.
As dumb as the Army could be, there are no manual instructions for post CW cavalry firing into non-existent massed ranks of Indians, nor was that the expectation and it's absurd to pretend it ever was. There wouldn't have been even the pretence of target practice if that was the case, with no concern about accuracy. They'd be issued shotguns. That may have been true under Cromwell and Cornwallis, but it certainly was never true in the American west. |
| hunkpapa7 |
Posted - April 13 2006 : 10:35:23 AM
Thought Galls family members were killed by Ree scouts. |
| wILD I |
Posted - April 13 2006 : 08:49:58 AM
You're just being held to your own postings. You called it "a shambles." It wasn't, and now you claim it so without a hint of admitting error.
I posted that the advance to Weir point was a shambles.
Thus explaining the fiasco of Ireland at war
Generally the soldier was expected to fire his weapon into the massed ranks of attacking enemy.Slightly later it was the artillery and machineguns which did the killing.Brit soldiers in WW1 advanced with unloaded rifles and were not allowed to return fire.Training soldiers in the finer points of marksmanship is a waste of time.Todays weapons concentrate on rate of fire.Teaching marksmanship has one advantage though and that is it is good for morale.Makes the soldier feel superior to the enemy.
The fiasco of Irish rebellions was due to untrained,poorly armed,poorly led peasants facing professional imperial troops.And just in passing where do you think those French allies of Washington's came from?
If true at all, they were shot within the lodge by Reno's soldiers pointlessly firing in the direction of the village or who'd missed their closer targets....again.
They were doing what was expected of them firing at the biggest target.
Agreed. Except in the American West, where they fought warrior societies, mostly afoot.
The warrior was an unique species.Sending a regular line cavalry regiment into battle against him was going have dismal results but this did not make the 7th a diosmal outfit.
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| Dark Cloud |
Posted - April 12 2006 : 5:24:39 PM
Wild,
1. You're just being held to your own postings. You called it "a shambles." It wasn't, and now you claim it so without a hint of admitting error.
2. Thus explaining the fiasco of Ireland at war.
3. Yes, I know. SOME were. Most weren't.
4. If true at all, they were shot within the lodge by Reno's soldiers pointlessly firing in the direction of the village or who'd missed their closer targets....again.
5. This was in reference to the soldiers' proposed series of line dances - the skirmish lines and feints that would do....what?
6. Agreed. Except in the American West, where they fought warrior societies, mostly afoot. |
| wILD I |
Posted - April 12 2006 : 4:16:29 PM
Not long ago you described the retreat from Weir Point as a variant of fiasco, so I am glad you've at least indirectly admitting that Benteen did well under the circumstances.
What a deliciously distorted sense of recall you have.The quickness of the pen decieves the eye and our resident conjurer turns advance into retreat.
They were bad shots,
Really there is no such thing.All that is required of the soldier is that he can fire a round in the general direction of the enemy.
Small arms are nothing more than a placebo.Make enough noise and you frighten the enemy while giving youself and your comrades more confidence.Result enemy flees leaving you to plunder his town, his village ,his marble collection.
they weren't good riders
Well some were good enough to race a mile,plunge down an embankment,swim a river and climb a 200 foot escarpment while under close scrutiny by cleaver brandishing amateur surgeons.
and this was all proven in this battle of few Indian casualtiesI read somewhere that Gall's wife and kids were killed.He must have been very unlucky to lose his family to such bad shots.Or is it possible that there was far more casualties in the village than was ever admitted?Did the Indians themselves know?Did they have a numbering system beyond "heap big".
Manuever is pointless if you can't hit anything,
If the enemy appears on your flank or rear you're not going to hang about to find out how good his marksman ship is.
The 7th's combat potential might not have amounted to much but then in the late 1800's cavalry everywhere were reduced to chasing revolting peasants. |
| BJMarkland |
Posted - April 12 2006 : 4:14:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
As a military unit, it was dismal,
A somewhat harsh judgement I would opine.To judge the 7th solely on the action at LSH is unjust.No body of contemporary troops under the kind of leadership displayed by Custer would have fared any better.If a judgement is to be made then the entire action should be considered.
1/Reno's 130 men were prepared to follow their leader into the village.
2 The skirmish line was held in the face of growing opposition.
3/The withdrawal to the timber was well executed with no hint of panic.
4/The position in the timber was held.
5/The retreat was not initally a stampede.
6/Reno's units defeated with 40%casualties still responded to orders and somehow got themselves advancing towards Weir point.
7/The withdrawal from Weirpoint was well executed covered by a rearguard.
8/Reno hill was stoutly defended.
9/Even at the LSH area showed no evidence of wholesale panic.
The 7th at all times responded with enormous courage to the orders of their officers.If anything was dismal it was the leadership of Custer.
Wild makes valid points. DC, I think you are right but in the sense that the 7th was on a par with the majority of regiments. The lack of training was an Army-wide problem, not only a 7th problem. Remember, Crook's men fired off something like 25,000 rounds and did not account for many Indian dead. And from what I have read on the Rosebud (admittedly little), most of the Indian casualties were caused by either the Indian auxiliaries or the civilians and infantrymen. Perhaps the Ninth and Tenth may have had an advantage in that they had higher retention rates of enlisted men, as well as more field and combat service; but still, they had the same limitations on ammunition to practice with, as well as the responsibility to be cheap labor at the various posts (as did all the western regiments).
Best of wishes,
Billy |
| BJMarkland |
Posted - April 12 2006 : 4:01:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Cloud
That is one frustrated and highly annoyed officer, Captain Dorst is. Thank you for that. I wouldn't want to be with him after he mailed that baby off and hit the first bar on the way home. His anger is palpable. I don't think many officers called their training "ridiculous" in any form.
Both pieces are twelve years and up removed from Custer, but if we can ascertain anything it's safe to say things weren't better in the 1870's, given the infusion of attention and dollars the Army received after LBH compared to before. It sorta lays to rest, as previous pieces did about the pack train, that being a cavalryman was not really an earn while you learn routine on the march up the Yellowstone, and newbies probably suffered a much higher death rate then than now.
Well, I have finally placed Dorst. He is mentioned quite often in the biography of Ranald Mackenzie, Bad Hand. So, he quite obviously took the irritability of his mentor. Yes, he wrote the articles in the '80's but he used examples from the early '70's when serving under Mackenzie in the Fourth Cav.
Have a good one gentlemen and ladies,
Billy |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - April 11 2006 : 4:09:00 PM
That they did those things doesn't affect, one way or the other, that they were a dismal unit. They were bad shots, they weren't good riders - could not have been by the Army's own description of the training needed - and this was all proven in this battle of few Indian casualties, many of which would have had to be friendly fire anyway. Manuever is pointless if you can't hit anything, even if the horse were still. Absent the Sioux running away, the 7th was incapable of carrying out its mission.
Not long ago you described the retreat from Weir Point as a variant of fiasco, so I am glad you've at least indirectly admitting that Benteen did well under the circumstances.
In any event, since nobody has a clue what happened in what sequence on Custer's field, it's as possible as any other theory the 7th was surprised at LSH. The bodies streamed south along the road, different from the markers today, which suggests a more coagulated position of mutual defense than actuality supports. |
| wILD I |
Posted - April 11 2006 : 1:51:00 PM
Lots of combatants have courage, but they're dismal military units.
I have posted 9 points to support my opinion that a judgement of "dismal" cannot be based on the performance of the 7th at the LBH.
Facing overwhelming odds,placed in an almost hopeless position by Custer,the regiment did recover and perform adequately.
when you replant the LSH markers to where the wooden ones actually were, remove the spurious, adjust the others to fit with the early photos and first hand descriptions, LSH looks very much like a panic north from Keogh's area that hit a wall, bounced, and was slaughtered.
If refugees were fleeing the Keogh position and moving towards Custer then the term panic is unjustified.Is panic not a thoughtless flight from danger?
And on Aug 8th the 7th was back in action.Doughty fighters in spite of all.
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| Dark Cloud |
Posted - April 11 2006 : 12:58:21 PM
Lots of combatants have courage, but they're dismal military units. The Indians were dismal as well for war, if not for the singular battle. They could ride, anyway.
Regardless, when you replant the LSH markers to where the wooden ones actually were, remove the spurious, adjust the others to fit with the early photos and first hand descriptions, LSH looks very much like a panic north from Keogh's area that hit a wall, bounced, and was slaughtered. This assumes it wasn't a construct by the 7th, anyway, reflecting ease of burial and "fitting" placement. |
| wILD I |
Posted - April 11 2006 : 11:09:07 AM
As a military unit, it was dismal,
A somewhat harsh judgement I would opine.To judge the 7th solely on the action at LSH is unjust.No body of contemporary troops under the kind of leadership displayed by Custer would have fared any better.If a judgement is to be made then the entire action should be considered.
1/Reno's 130 men were prepared to follow their leader into the village.
2 The skirmish line was held in the face of growing opposition.
3/The withdrawal to the timber was well executed with no hint of panic.
4/The position in the timber was held.
5/The retreat was not initally a stampede.
6/Reno's units defeated with 40%casualties still responded to orders and somehow got themselves advancing towards Weir point.
7/The withdrawal from Weirpoint was well executed covered by a rearguard.
8/Reno hill was stoutly defended.
9/Even at the LSH area showed no evidence of wholesale panic.
The 7th at all times responded with enormous courage to the orders of their officers.If anything was dismal it was the leadership of Custer. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - April 09 2006 : 6:14:18 PM
Another question(s). Why did so many officers in the 7th believe they were ready to go into battle? Did they have concerns and we(Me) are just not aware of them? |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - April 07 2006 : 11:51:53 PM
I am reasonably certain that after reading about the horse and the rider both previous and the information supplied by Billy that 7th was lacking in training of both in that regard. Making the same beginner mistakes over and over is not training. A new rider can not train a horse. The horse learned from the other horses along the way but it may be bad habits rather than perfect control and precision movements. If its months and months to train the horse properly by an experienced rider and then more training with the same rider and longer if a novice rider then it did not occur for majority of 7th Cavalry horses and troopers.
The same must be said for the pack train. If you didn't know what to do at the beginning of the trip either packer or animal then multiple days of the same mistakes is not training. |
| AZ Ranger |
Posted - April 07 2006 : 11:37:46 PM
Thanks Billy
I knew you were a source of information but I am still impressed on how much you access to and provide to others.
Thanks Again
AZ Ranger |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - April 07 2006 : 6:51:23 PM
That is one frustrated and highly annoyed officer, Captain Dorst is. Thank you for that. I wouldn't want to be with him after he mailed that baby off and hit the first bar on the way home. His anger is palpable. I don't think many officers called their training "ridiculous" in any form.
Both pieces are twelve years and up removed from Custer, but if we can ascertain anything it's safe to say things weren't better in the 1870's, given the infusion of attention and dollars the Army received after LBH compared to before. It sorta lays to rest, as previous pieces did about the pack train, that being a cavalryman was not really an earn while you learn routine on the march up the Yellowstone, and newbies probably suffered a much higher death rate then than now. |
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