| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| runner |
Posted - August 25 2005 : 6:26:59 PM
I want to thank members of the board for steering me towards the older, simpler theories. I was preparing to go down the path of reading every new LBH book hoping that someone “wraps it up”. I read the forum, saw the light and now want to pay back the board by hopefully contributing something interesting.
I’m reading the book “Forty Miles a Day on Beans and Hay” written by Don Rickey, JR. Picked it up for a song at Amazon since it’s a soft back 11th printing.
About half way through and I highly recommend it for buffs who are curious about the life of the enlisted man in the 1870s-1890s Frontier Army. Copyright in 1963, the author had more then 300 living Indian War veterans fill out questionnaires and write accounts of their army experiences out west. Most of the interviews were done in 1954. Footnotes are located at bottom of each page, consisting of various Army documents like Order books, soldier’s diaries/letters, and so on; though Rickey does use Benteen’s letters to Goldin a few times. No ones perfect, I guess.
The book reads very well, considering the amount/type of info.
A couple of examples concerning the lack of enlisted men’s training.
Page 100:
Put in charge of two Gatling guns in 1867, a new lieutenant believed that his inexperienced gun crews should be familiarized with the use of the guns. Recalling the incident, the officer wrote: “I wanted to have target practice but was told I would have to pay for the ammunition. The commanding officer refused to authorize target practice for fear he would have to pay for the ammunition, (and the crews never did fire the Gatlings).
General ES Godfrey, “Recollections of the Medicine Lodge Treaty Conference,
October, 1867,” MS, Bates Coll., 1.
Also on page 100
A surgeon who accompanied Gibbon’s column during the 1876 summer campaign had
this to say “…cavalryman… as a general thing are about as well fitted to travel through a
hostile country as puling infants, and go mooning around at the mercy of any Indian who
happens to catch sight and takes the trouble to lay for them behind the first convenient
ridge.
Dean Hudnutt, “New Light on the Little Big Horn” Field Artillery Journal, Vol XIX, No
4 (1936), 357.
I had to look up puling. “To cry, as a complaining child; to whimper or whine.”
Granted the surgeon is not a true officer/soldier, but this was his impression of the soldiers involved in the 1876 summer campaign plus he writes a nice picture!
In the preface the author mentions several veterans who participated in his project with personal interviews. Their various comments throughout the book are not footnoted but the author uses their names in the text comment area.
For example, also on page 100
First Infantryman Sgt James S Hamilton wrote that “ …like many of our men I was not adequately trained to handle [the cannon].
FYI, Sgt Hamilton served from 1876-1881.
To me, it looks like things started to change in 1876, mainly since a subcommittee of Congress started hearings on army drill and training.
On page 102
When queried on the amount of drill and training in process at army posts, Lt. Rice replied that to his knowledge “one-half the posts of the Army have no drills. The companies are so small that all the men are occupied in taking care of the post.
Reorganization of the Army, 45 Congress, 2 sess., House Misc. Doc. No. 56, Mar. 21, 1876, 246.
Big change by the 1880s, the army stressed more on target-shooting, by giving prizes and furloughs to the best shots in different units. Also the army started awarding marksman badges. Little bits of ribbon…
The author also mentions that in a footnote dated 1877, Miles was insistent with training the 5th Infantry. This could explain Miles successes. (Boy, do I sound biased!)
The author begins the book at the start of an enlisted man’s tour and ends it at his discharge.
Anyway, I hope members are interested in this book. Used book on Amazon, less then $10 delivered. Excellent bibliography, also. Mostly firsthand sources, feels “pure”. Not like some recent dribble.
I think I’m going to look closer at books written in the 50s-60s. Like Graham’s Custer Myth and Custer's Luck by Stewart. Also do some right turns and find books that ride the peripheral of LBH. Authors that don’t have a “higher purpose”.
Sorry about my fragmented writing style.
Thanks again! |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - August 27 2005 : 7:53:49 PM
Runner, you certainly did not come across as a "Phile." As you spend time on this board you will find that the vast majority of us are open to, and respect, fresh perspectives. |
| runner |
Posted - August 27 2005 : 5:53:24 PM
Thanks all for the welcome! I hope I didn't come across as a "phile". I just got excited when I stumbled across 40 miles a day. Really great book. For instance, the artillery and recruits had the highest incidence of VD. Apologies to the womenfolk for mentioning this.
In the rear, with the gear and the beer. REMFs.
Little things which any soldier at any time can relate to. Distant officers, bad NCOs, stupid busy work, no real training, etc.
I'll be on the lookout for A DOSE OF FRONTIER SOLDIERING.
I've RTF, so I'm used to DC's ways.
WL was right in one thing. The US military sucks at weapon procurement.
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| joseph wiggs |
Posted - August 27 2005 : 12:28:46 PM
Runner, allow me the opportunity to welcome you to the forum as well. Yes, alcoholism was of epidemic proportions, in the military, during this era. The reasons for this sad situation are as numerous and complex as all human failings.
Chapter 10 of Forty Miles A Day On Beans and Hay touches upon one element of this quandary:
"Drinking can hardly be considered an approved form of recreation, but certainly it was an important relaxation and pastime for many frontier regulars. Although some drank little or not at all, large numbers were accustomed to heavy drinking."
When one realizes that 90% of the soldier's Army life was rife with sheer boredom and tedious inactivity,the shades of escapism arise. This factor, coupled with the Army's incredible lack of effort towards providing Rest& Relaxation (R&R)for personnel, provides a dismal life of the frontier soldier prior to the "late 1880's."
You have touched upon many interesting points, thanks |
| alfuso |
Posted - August 27 2005 : 01:02:57 AM
Another good book for the pov of the enlisted grunt is E Bode's A DOSE OF FRONTIER SOLDIERING. He elisted in 1877 and his on-the-ground views are priceless. Especially how they saw the Indians (the few times they ever saw them) what they thought of officers who ripped of Indians, etc.
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| movingrobewoman |
Posted - August 26 2005 : 6:23:10 PM
Runner--
Though I share many of DC's concerns about Custerphiles and their religious pursuit of all things Autie, lemme take this opportunity to welcome ya aboard!
Most of us, you'll find, aren't so durn cantankerous ...
Hoka hey! |
| movingrobewoman |
Posted - August 26 2005 : 6:19:57 PM
Nothing like bringing out the old welcome wagon, DC ...
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| Dark Cloud |
Posted - August 26 2005 : 2:57:47 PM
There were a couple of people who enlisted in the 7th, got zero training, and found themselves assigned to the 1876 expedition right off, although they stayed at depots along the way. Perhaps they were among those who walked halfway from Abe Lincoln for horses that weren't there. Some could not ride anyway. Even factoring in exaggeration, I don't think it can be seriously claimed the 7th was an elite outfit by any measure, well trained and remotely up to the challenges besetting it.
We don't know what percentage of the ammo was 70 or 55 grain, much less what percentage of the soldiers had ever fired such ammo in those guns. We can know that they were not a hot shooting outfit.
I also think it wise to start with a very, very (very) cynical state of mind when reading about this or any legendary event. Your heart won't break at the horrors predictably revealed and therefore you won't feel yourself emotionally defending the indefensible and preposterous with highly suspect and questionable evidence. Further, when you do find examples of genuine competence and heroism, it's all the more impressive and memorable.
It's very disturbing to witness the convoluted implausibilities that Custerphiles feel they need to defend him. He made errors, is all. He doesn't need or, frankly, deserve the current avalanche of blather that makes him look so silly, splitting his already outnumbered unit like a cancer undergoing cell division. |
| runner |
Posted - August 26 2005 : 09:07:35 AM
More from book
Alcoholism
Page 159
During the decade of the 1880’s, overall a ratio of almost forty-one for every thousand men were hospitalized as alcoholics. Taken separately, the four black regiments’ ratio was a little over 5 1/2 cases per thousand. Strangely, the lowest ratio post was Fort Custer, Montana with a little over 3 per thousand.
Footnoted: Annual Report, Sec. Of War, 1891, I, 593.
The author writes that this was in an era where only the most severe cases were treated, for manifestations such as delirium tremens, etc. The author goes on to write that it’s possible that if the officers and NCOs drank a lot then the enlisted men were more apt to drink more, too.
Springfield carbine/Practical jokes
Page 211
The Springfield carbine was considerably lighter then the “long Tom” infantry rifle and this is the reason carbine cartridges were loaded with fifty-five grains of powder instead of the seventy grains of powder. Firing the 70 grain ammo produced very heavy recoil in the carbine. “When someone slipped a long Tom cartridge in on you [in target practice]… you thought the sky fell in.”
Seventh Cavalryman John R Nixon. Enlisted in 1890.
I think someone posted that Varnum said that rifle ammo was taken instead of carbine ammo by the 7th during the ’76 campaign. If you accept that target practice before 1876 was basically nil, then the troopers were in for a surprise.
Look at Crook on the Rosebud. How many rounds fired with how many hostile KIA?
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