| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JakeW |
Posted - October 04 2004 : 01:31:01 AM
Was just wondering, were the bodies of Lt.'s Harrington or Sturgis ever recovered? All I've heard about the remains of Sturgis, was the fact that bloody articles of his clothing were found in the abandoned village. Seems since his father was the actual commander of the regiment (at least on paper), a good deal of effort would have been made to recover his body.
Jake |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - July 23 2007 : 7:21:28 PM
Kenny,
Tom Custer also dressed in similar fashion as his brother. |
| kenny |
Posted - February 16 2006 : 03:01:57 AM
If I remember this correctly.Red said the officer was wearing a buckskin coat and had a longknife.That was turning his horse to cover the reteat.The only officer that was wearing buckskin was Custer,Keogh,Yates,Cooke and Porter.Probably some others I can't remember. |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - March 07 2005 : 11:43:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Lt. Smith's corpse is not at marker #105 as it has been assumed. We don't know where it is. The possibility that he was wounded at MTC, as JGSturgis remarked upon, is a viable possibility.
No it isn't, for reasons beyond that, and though at the risk of feeding flames to more half-baked theories of the kind, I'll let you know that Cooke probably isn't where his marker puts him today, nor is Tom, nor is Boston or Reed. I don't assume that the markers for Yates or Reily mark the spot exactly either, and pity to anyone who does. The battlefield was an utter mess for 15 years, stakes scattered this way and that with each new rainstorm. It was only a few years ago that Brian Pohanka noticed that Keogh's marker was set up about 15 feet from the spot where an 1877 photograph showed his original wooden stake, and the troubles burial crews had in locating the grave of Custer the same year are notorious. Smith's body was ID'd on Custer Hill by several people, as were Cooke, and Tom, and Yates, and that modern research proves the current marker to be at the wrong spot shows only that nature treated Smith's stake very unkindly in the 14 years between burial and Owen Sweet.
R. Larsen |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 10:43:46 PM
Anyone. It takes no skill. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 8:22:20 PM
D.c. quote:
I proposed at one time to review books before they emerge on the LBH in the sure knowledge that the prejudices and incompetencies of the various authors would accurately tunnel all efforts to predictable conclusions. Here are two excellent examples ripe for the reviewer's pen not hindered by the need to read them.
Who would review them, you? |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 8:15:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Poster8169
quote:
Originally posted by JGSturgis
Lt. A.E. Smith was wounded at MTC Ford
[quote]
(Larsen) MOST unlikely, since Smith's corpse turned up on Custer Hill.
Marker #105:
"A test excavation was placed on Last Stand Hill immediately adjacent to marker #105 which is inscribed 'Lieutenant Algernon Smith.' The excavation uncovered a complete and mostly articulated left lower arm and hand. The bones represent a single individual."
Page 39, Archaeological Insights D.D.Scott
"The remains found at marker 105 cannot belong to Lt. Smith. Smith had a crippled left arm, the result of a wound suffered during the Civil War. The excavated arm has no evidence of a wound or any other trauma, nor is there any evidence of atrophy in the forearm."
Page 101, same source.
Lt. Smith's corpse is not at marker #105 as it has been assumed. We don't know where it is. The possibility that he was wounded at MTC, as JGSturgis remarked upon, is a viable possibility. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 6:51:59 PM
What precisely was the extensive research bragged about for the Sturgis book given how easily Larsen has already shredded it? In fact, can anybody distinguish either of these two forthcoming books on Harrington and Sturgis from absolute bunkum? A last wash around the bottom of the barrel to fabricate something, anything that might have a slightly new twist on it?
I proposed at one time to review books before they emerge on the LBH in the sure knowledge that the prejudices and incompetencies of the various authors would accurately tunnel all efforts to predictable conclusions. Here are two excellent examples ripe for the reviewer's pen not hindered by the need to read them. |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 4:26:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JGSturgis
What evidence shows he would shave it? none at all, I think its more accurate to say he left his hair as it always was, even if he had cut it short the campaign was a month old, it would have grown back in.
I think it's more accurate to say that we don't know what his hair was like on June 25, given the lack of any documentation on the matter. We likewise don't know if he was scalped, or decapitated, for much the same reasons. His body, if found, wasn't recognized, and that's as far as it goes.
R. Larsen |
| JGSturgis |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 3:29:08 PM
quote:
Well, how about because we don't know where Sturgis was killed. He could have died in a hole somewhere, with a gunshot wound that tore off parts of his head making his hair not worth a scalp. I assume you're judging his hair length from his picture? Nobody knows what his hair was like on June 25. He may have shaved it all for what anybody knows. The point is you can't assert something that is unknowable.
Exactly, we don't know where he was killed or what his death-wound was, thats the purpose of this topic and I was simply giving my opinion on the matter. From his West Point picture to his 7th Cavalry picture his hair doesn't seem to have changed much at all. What evidence shows he would shave it? none at all, I think its more accurate to say he left his hair as it always was, even if he had cut it short the campaign was a month old, it would have grown back in. |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 3:00:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JGSturgis
I believe a hospital was established on LSH,
I know you do, but I'm asking why.
quote:
White Bull claimed to have shot a buckskin clad officer at the ford and although many consider him to be a liar it fits my scenario.
No it doesn't, since Smith died on Custer Hill, it's far more likely he got his wound there. White Cow Bull isn't credible, but if he was, you'd have better luck identifying this alleged victim with Porter, since he could have died near the ford, though just as likely (in fact, more likely) did not.
quote:
I can see no other reason Smith would have been so far from the majority of his company and its unlikly he was attached to headquarters or something of that nature, James Sturgis had never been in a fight and would not be commanding E troop alone on a day like that.
There are Indians who say that E Company was on Custer Hill at one point during the battle. Smith probably died then.
quote:
quote:
Why go in search for them and then do nothing with them? And what do they expect Benteen to do with Reno, who by now they must know has been repulsed?
Weather or not Custer knew of Reno's retreat to the timber is up for debate, either way Boston Custer had arrived and had last seen Benteen riding in Custer's direction, undoubtedly he told his brother this.
Riding towards the battle would be a more accurate description. I'm still curious what you think Custer would have expected Benteen to do with Reno; we have Curley's authority that Custer had been informed of Reno's retreat by Bouyer, and that could be inferred anyway by his retreat from Medicine Tail Ford. Were Custer waiting for Benteen it beggars description that he would blow off to North Ford to go look at the Indian girls. Isn't he supposed to be fighting a battle or something?
quote:
Why Custer stopped at, or near to the North Ford is also questionable, but I think he wanted to reconsolidate the regiment rather than take off after the non-combatants.
But he had (according to you) already taken off after the noncombatants --- knowing full well the regiment was unconsolidated. Anyway, I question whether he stopped at this North Ford, at all. The evidence isn't good.
quote:
quote:
What evidence is there that a hospital was set up?
The possibility both Custer and Smith were wounded and found on the hill, undoubtedly others were wounded durring the fight and needed medical attention, a location had to be set up for a field-hospital.
For all you or I know, Custer and Smith flopped to the ground and died instantly. Where was Lord during all this? You assume he was on Custer Hill, but his body wasn't plausibly identified (it's doubtful Michaelis & Thompson got the right one) and he may well have been with Keogh, or Calhoun, or off on his lonesome. Benteen said it was Lord's habit to ride at the rear of march, so I see little justification for assuming that a hospital was set up, and if it was set up, that it was erected on Custer Hill. Anybody notice any corpses with bandages?
quote:
quote:
How do you know they numbered no more than eight?
of the 28 men said to be in Deep Ravine I believe 6 are of company F, I factored in a small number being killed on the run. An educated guess.
An educated guess would not erect unnecessary, arbitrary limits. The only F Troop soldier known to have been identified in Deep Ravine was Timothy Donnelly; it's likely (but not certain) there were others, but there are no facts known to anybody which can justify saying there were "no more" than such & such.
quote:
quote:
How do we know that Sturgis was scalped?
The lieutenant wore his hair at medium length, most everyone else was scalped and for those in Deep Ravine especially mutilated. I can't see why Sturgis would be an exception.
Well, how about because we don't know where Sturgis was killed. He could have died in a hole somewhere, with a gunshot wound that tore off parts of his head making his hair not worth a scalp. I assume you're judging his hair length from his picture? Nobody knows what his hair was like on June 25. He may have shaved it all for what anybody knows. The point is you can't assert something that is unknowable.
quote:
Most historians agree that the fact the shirt was found buttoned in the village hints that he was decapitated first. Why would an Indian unbutton the shirt, remove it, re-button it and leave it behind?
You're quite wrong when you say that most historians agree about this, and it seems pretty ludicrous to extrapolate a decapitation from a buttoned-up shirt. The shirt was left behind anyway, so what can that prove? The Indian who filched it must have thought enough of it to take it off in the first place, no matter if he changed his mind later.
quote:
its been a long day.
My sympathies.
R. Larsen |
| wILD I |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 08:00:22 AM
JG
A hospital?What's this about a hospital?For God's sake the man was unable to set up a skermish line.As for his defence it was spread out over a mile.
either way Boston Custer had arrived and had last seen Benteen riding in Custer's direction, undoubtedly he told his brother this.No offense JG but the above is just an axample of posting without any thought.
Boston Custer did not know of Benteen's orders.Boston did not know of Reno's situation.Boston did not know of the hole his brother had just dug for himself and his command .Boston knew nothing and thought he was riding to a picnic. |
| JGSturgis |
Posted - March 06 2005 : 02:15:02 AM
I have never read any of Fox's work.
quote:
MOST unlikely, since Smith's corpse turned up on Custer Hill.
I believe a hospital was established on LSH, White Bull claimed to have shot a buckskin clad officer at the ford and although many consider him to be a liar it fits my scenario. I can see no other reason Smith would have been so far from the majority of his company and its unlikly he was attached to headquarters or something of that nature, James Sturgis had never been in a fight and would not be commanding E troop alone on a day like that.
quote:
Why go in search for them and then do nothing with them? And what do they expect Benteen to do with Reno, who by now they must know has been repulsed?
Weather or not Custer knew of Reno's retreat to the timber is up for debate, either way Boston Custer had arrived and had last seen Benteen riding in Custer's direction, undoubtedly he told his brother this. Why Custer stopped at, or near to the North Ford is also questionable, but I think he wanted to reconsolidate the regiment rather than take off after the non-combatants.
quote:
What evidence is there that a hospital was set up?
The possibility both Custer and Smith were wounded and found on the hill, undoubtedly others were wounded durring the fight and needed medical attention, a location had to be set up for a field-hospital. I'm not saying this is my opinion, but perhaps the men of L,C and I companies found on LSH were wounded and moved to the hospital there earlier in the fight.
quote:
How do you know they numbered no more than eight?
of the 28 men said to be in Deep Ravine I believe 6 are of company F, I factored in a small number being killed on the run. An educated guess.
quote:
How do we know that Sturgis was scalped?
The lieutenant wore his hair at medium length, most everyone else was scalped and for those in Deep Ravine especially mutilated. I can't see why Sturgis would be an exception.
quote:
What prevented him from taking the shirt off and then cutting off the head?
Most historians agree that the fact the shirt was found buttoned in the village hints that he was decapitated first. Why would an Indian unbutton the shirt, remove it, re-button it and leave it behind?
its been a long day. |
| BJMarkland |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 8:34:27 PM
JG, without any condemnation, I seem to get the feeling that you are basing your work upon Fox's interpretations. Is that assumption correct?
Best of wishes,
Billy |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 6:11:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JGSturgis
Lt. A.E. Smith was wounded at MTC Ford
MOST unlikely, since Smith's corpse turned up on Custer Hill.
quote:
Companies E and F moved with HQ to the North Ford with Custer where upon discovering the non-combatants and location of a crossing they returned the Battle Ridge area to await Benteen who was still supposed to be coming.
Why go in search for them and then do nothing with them? And what do they expect Benteen to do with Reno, who by now they must know has been repulsed?
quote:
When they reached Keogh's battalion a hospital was set up on LSH
What evidence is there that a hospital was set up?
quote:
Durring their run to the ravine a few men, no more than 8, of F company joined E troop,
How do you know they numbered no more than eight?
quote:
It is likely that alot of Indians were pouncing upon these last few soldiers in a blood lust and something of a mob descended on the lieutenants body, the warrior who dealt the Death Wound beat the lieutenants face repeatedly having taken the scalp and then began to take the lieutenants fine clothes.
How do we know that Sturgis was scalped?
quote:
As more Indians came to the body one attempted to pull off his civilian pattern shirt. Rather than negotiate the shirt off of the busy-body the head was severed and the shirt pulled off.
What prevented him from taking the shirt off and then cutting off the head?
quote:
On June 27th Benteen claimed to have Identified every officers remains except Harringtons. Unforunatly he didn't record the locations of the two missing officers who no one else seemed to be able to identifiy which leads me to the conclusion that Benteen was lieing intentionally or was simply mistaken,
Why on earth would he lie about such a thing?
For the record, we have no document in which Benteen ever claimed this, propria persona. This is something that Charles Roe, 30 years later, supposedly remembered Benteen saying on June 27 (Roe added Lord to the list of alleged non-IDs).
I don't think Benteen ever recognized the bodies of Porter or Sturgis, and I don't think he ever claimed to. He certainly did not in the letter to his wife of July 4. I think Roe was misunderstanding something Benteen said about having discovered confirmation of the deaths of all officers except for Lord and Harrington, not of actually seeing each of their bodies. Benteen, July 4, notes that clothes of Sturgis and Porter were found in the village, and Myles Moylan (in a letter to Fred Calhoun, July 6) writes, "No trace of any kind of Harrington or Dr. Lord have been found". It's far more likely that Benteen was speaking in that sense, and that after 30 years Roe's memory of the point of what was being said had become garbled.
R. Larsen
PS Although Moylan was unaware of it, some of Lord's things were, apparently, found in the village.
|
| JGSturgis |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 3:55:50 PM
Wild I, I can see where your coming from, I did not mean they could have won the battle alone with another company, or that they could have fought on indefinatly. Rather with another company holes in the defense which the Indians took advantage of could have been plugged and perhaps the command could have held out until Benteen arrived, had he followed his orders. |
| wILD I |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 3:16:13 PM
with perhaps only one more company it could have held.
It was that close what? |
| JGSturgis |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 2:21:46 PM
So that he would come to Custer with his battalion and the pack train. I believe the defense of the field was set up well, and with perhaps only one more company it could have held. But thats just my opinion, I'm obviously pro-Custer. |
| wILD I |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 11:32:45 AM
Welcome JG
Just one question.Do you have any idea why Custer sent that urgent message to Benteen? |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 10:01:07 AM
Can hardly wait. |
| JGSturgis |
Posted - March 05 2005 : 01:32:07 AM
Gentleman, if I may step in here and throw my opinion forward, I realize this is kind-of old, but hey, I'm new. I'm currently writing a book entitled, "And the Name of its Rider was Death, James Garland Sturgis at the Little Big Horn." Which chronicles the life of this much overlooked young soldier and the fight which began and ended his military career. Through extensive research I have came to the following conclusion. Lt. A.E. Smith was wounded at MTC Ford or regardless, soon after, in any case Sturgis was given command of E troop. Companies E and F moved with HQ to the North Ford with Custer where upon discovering the non-combatants and location of a crossing they returned the Battle Ridge area to await Benteen who was still supposed to be coming. When they reached Keogh's battalion a hospital was set up on LSH and F company was deployed around the base of the hill down into the basin area to protect HQ and the hospital. E company was positioned where the modern-day cemetery now is. As the position to the south fell apart the survivors moved to LSH Company F made its, "Last Stand," on LSH while Company E did similar on Cemetery Hill. When HQ and F companies position was clearly to be overrun Sturgis and approximatly 30 or so men decided to make a run for safety in deep ravine and the river area, the only place that wasn't swarming with Indians at the moment. Durring their run to the ravine a few men, no more than 8, of F company joined E troop, those that werent killed in the moved met their end in Deep Ravine. Including Lt. Sturgis who led the move.
As I'm sure you all know the men in Deep Ravine were mutilated badly, the first sergeant only being identified by his socks. Sturgis was in my opinion killed here, making it quite some distance before being killed. It is likely that alot of Indians were pouncing upon these last few soldiers in a blood lust and something of a mob descended on the lieutenants body, the warrior who dealt the Death Wound beat the lieutenants face repeatedly having taken the scalp and then began to take the lieutenants fine clothes. As more Indians came to the body one attempted to pull off his civilian pattern shirt. Rather than negotiate the shirt off of the busy-body the head was severed and the shirt pulled off.
The shirt of Sturgis's found in the body was blue civilian pattern, with JG Sturgis embroidered upon it and the gold buttons on the collar stamped with JGS. The drawers found weren't army issue either, and were also marked JGS to protect the ownership of such quality goods to have on a long campaign. The same way E troops first sergeant marked his name on his socks.
On June 27th Benteen claimed to have Identified every officers remains except Harringtons. Unforunatly he didn't record the locations of the two missing officers who no one else seemed to be able to identifiy which leads me to the conclusion that Benteen was lieing intentionally or was simply mistaken, the captain seems to have distorted many facts involving the campaign, ie) at the Reno court of Inquiry when asked about fords Benteen stated he could cross the river anywhere, he also stated Custer's men were scattered aobut like corn and it was a route, which no other witness, along with archeological evidence seems to disagree with.
Of the three heads found two were identified as Reno's men while the third was damaged beyond recognition. Could it have been that of Lt. Sturgis? we'll never know. Although the bodies in Deep Ravine have never been identified, should they ever perhaps one of those bodies will be minus a skull? only time will tell. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 9:05:24 PM
"Skelnar has some redeeming qualities"
What a refreshing and astute comment. I say this because past posts seemed to have taken great delight in relegating his work to a sphere of fantasy and mirth. I was struck by his theory that the "Lone Tepee" situation may have convinced Custer that he had been detected and, that the Indians were fleeing, as he suspected and feared. The realization that his worst fears may have been coming true would certainly have aroused his trepidation of failure and hasten his actions to prevent such a conclusion from coming true.
The tepee stood upon a site that was,obviously, occupied by thousands of Indians who were no longer there. We know now that the village had moved on for other reasons but, Custer could only have surmized, by signs, that their departure had been recent and, a result of his approach.
Knowning this helps us to understand some of the subsequent actions of General Custer that occurred. This theory alone makes the reading of the book worthwhile. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 5:44:52 PM
If anything, I know less than you about DNA, but for whatever reason I'd been under the impression that testing lessened the probablily that individuals were not related rather than proved they were. Before female mitochondrial specificity, wouldn't there be more general markers that might not prove relationship but could certainly prove no relationship? They speak of a genetic marker for American Indians, for example (and also contentious), so I expect there are things that might eliminate the skull from the Harrington possibility column, although maybe not specific enough.
I expect that is what is meant by saying, regarding the "Lell" skull, that DNA does not support the contention they are the same, rather than "it is not the skull."
Still... It's gotta be closer than holding up a thumb to skull and photo. |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 4:20:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by prolar
Dark Cloud: I have no knowledge of DNA testing. However, it has been explained elsewhere, maybe another forum, that the required DNA is only passed down through females. Harrington's mother had no female decendants, neither did her sisters. So there is no DNA for comparison.
Although there's no justification for it, the case for the skull being Harrington's being so weak, they could try to arrange to exhume the bodies of Harrington's dead family members. I feel sure they'd have no problem, since as similar efforts to ID Titanic victims in Halifax showed, closest living relatives are more than willing to grant approval to researchers wishing to dig up the corpse of their great-great-aunt, or whomever (it's almost never somebody they actually knew) in order to help write their ancestor into a few additional pages of history. Willing? More like thrilled and excited. I've seen documentaries in which they could barely contain their glee. It's unlikely Harrington's surviving brood (or his siblings', or cousins') will be any different.
R. Larsen |
| prolar |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 3:03:45 PM
Dark Cloud: I have no knowledge of DNA testing. However, it has been explained elsewhere, maybe another forum, that the required DNA is only passed down through females. Harrington's mother had no female decendants, neither did her sisters. So there is no DNA for comparison. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - February 19 2005 : 11:19:02 AM
Right. The first place to go is a re-enactor. And of course getting reliable information on impossibilities - like what Custer might have been thinking - is a truly meaningful innovation. But the thrill of going into excruciating detail on irrelevancies can't be denied, I guess. Would soldiers untrained in sabers make a worse showing than soldiers insufficiently trained in firearms? Surely, only experts can answer these mighty questions so essentially related to....well, something or other. Both modern trivia experts trying to acquire respect by appending themselves to the actions of the long dead, and past experts who, having seen virtually nothing outside their own states, are qualified to annouce the Sioux are the world's best horsemen. Better than they themselves were, surely enough.
Either way, this thread is about Sturgis and Harrington and the questions have been asked why DNA testing wasn't done on Harrington's skull before a book was offered that would modestly rise or utterly fall on that one issue. |
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