| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 11 2004 : 3:21:18 PM
I just was informed by Bhist that the Lee who oversaw the death of Crazy Horse IS the same as the court reporter at the Reno Inquiry.
If you read the supposed last words of CH, he praises Lee, who may have constructed his murder, and he goes on for quite a while given he's dying of a gut wound, not known as the Oprah Winfrey type, and under heavy sedation. Suspicious? Oh, I'd say so.
There is, at least, reason to believe that Lee conspired or was part of the murder (no proof, but it reeks of the probability) and fabricated a 'translation' by his paid underling to elevate himself and divert attention.
This is the guy castigating survivors of the LBH. Of all people, an Indian agent gets the nod to act as court recorder for such an important event.
Crazy Horse was under the thumb of Lee and James Calhoun's brother and who knows who else at Camp Robinson when he supposedly made a break for it, during which he was stabbed. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - July 02 2004 : 12:28:19 PM
Wild, the 'front' makes sense only if there is an enemy front to receive it. Unless you plan to break your mount's legs jumping into lodges, you end up in serpentine line - or several or many - and just fire away. Also, you need to get to the horse herd asap and disperse it.
In any case, you have opportunity: take it. |
| wILD I |
Posted - July 02 2004 : 03:17:52 AM
Just charge, damn it,
What ? With a front of 1/2 a dozen troopers?
If the village is too big, what are you doing heading north, anyway?
Because you can't double back up MTC.Wouldn't do morale any good for the troopers to see Custer had made a navignational error.North because that is where Deep Coulee leads and at this stage he probably has the first of Galls boys on his case.[Reno was out of the fight by 4.00]In front of him he sees the high ground of Battle Ridge and LSH.Gives him some hope---only to find that Crazy Horse has cut him off.
Now I feel that this sceanario is not in conflict with Gray's time sequence.At 5.25 Weir see what he takes to be Indians in possession of Cavalry guidons.So between Custers withdrawal up Deep Coulee after 4.00 and Weir's observations at 5.25 the 7th fought it's last.
Cheers
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| Dark Cloud |
Posted - July 01 2004 : 4:13:45 PM
There was no place to form up, really, and given that after a brief stand of trees you're in the village, silly to have done so. Just charge, damn it, through the village and drive the horse herd away and - if you think it will work - corral the glob of civvies supposedly already to your upper right. Otherwise, drive them south to Benteen and Reno or north to Terry but do something, would you?
If the village is too big, what are you doing heading north, anyway? Unite the regiment. |
| wILD I |
Posted - July 01 2004 : 3:32:58 PM
No, it doesn't take time to flower out from four to more as you cross
The tail of the command would be about 1/2 a mile back over borken country.So at 6 mph it takes 5 mins for last troops to cross and lets say another 5 minutes to form up and for Custer to brief the troop commanders.10 minutes in which alerted warriors can easely cover a mile. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 12:24:36 PM
No, it doesn't take time to flower out from four to more as you cross. If there was no notable resistence, why not?
I don't agree that everyone was with Reno either, but on the other hand Custer came down MTC an hour after Reno attacked, so the village could have reacted that way. Custer had already had his HS moment from Weir Point, where he could essentially see the entire village, so he started his attack knowing what he was heading for. |
| wILD I |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 09:43:58 AM
I expanded to 10 across above without cutting the lines in half. Should be ten troopers, 21 lines, not 42.
It does not matter what formation the troops are drawn up in ,it still takes time and that formation you describe makes a very nice target.
the crossing to the heart of the village and quickest way to separate the civvies from the warriors
Here we have a village which you youself have stated has no central control and no method of communication ,yet my some miracle manages to send all the civvies north while the warriors head South.No way.Custer faced the same reality as Reno.He saw a huge teeming village of hundreds of furious warriors and there he was caught with his pants down, his command in no formation to either attack or defend.One of those holy sh** moments.
Cheers |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 23 2004 : 08:41:00 AM
I expanded to 10 across above without cutting the lines in half. Should be ten troopers, 21 lines, not 42.
From all accounts there was small, if any, resistence at MTC, the crossing to the heart of the village and quickest way to separate the civvies from the warriors (currently contended all with Reno...). In short, every reason to cross there. It's why I like the wounded C theory. |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 11:39:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wILD I
Can you see a situation developing at the MTC ford where the Indians have outflanked Custer to the point where his only option is to retreat to the north. I can't, but feel free to suggest away.He was hit so hard and quick that there was nothing else open to him
Is that really true? After the battle the military saw little evidence of casualties between Ford B and the Calhoun position, and the Indian accounts, though some claim that they "drove" Custer from Ford B, also tend to suggest fairly desultory fighting at Ford B and its near vicinities. I just don't see how Custer was forced to head northwards.
R. Larsen
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| joseph wiggs |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 8:59:03 PM
Brent, you are right. It is a sad reality but, sometimes doing too little to late is as bad as doing nothing al all; regardless of intent. Hindsight being twenty/twenty, we can look back and see that many things went wrong for the troopers. Unexpected Indian resilience, misunderstood orders, failure of Gen. Crook to notify authorities of the Rosebud battle,(this alone would have made it clear that the warriors were prepared to fight and well armed) and, Indian firepower that exceeded all expectations. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 12:28:38 PM
Wild,
Forming three companies into a line takes time, is all. At 7 knots an attack with 10 (42 lines) across (it's broad enough) could get them across the river in ten minutes and immediately into the trees on the west bank. There was supposedly light fire only before them. To travel in full view to a hypothetical, broader crossing up north(where the water might be too deep or the banks too high or any number of things) where it would be guaranteed to be met by resistence of the sort that was less appealing, this makes small sense. They had a certain amount of surprise NOW and cover to get organized, take advantage of it.
Or, you know, if the village is too big, unite the regiment down south and make a go of it. |
| Brent |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 06:28:40 AM
Joe:
Could very well be that Custer's intent was to relieve pressure on Reno. But unfortunately, it came too late. Reno (who in his own mind was doubtless thinking right from the beginning "support" and "whole outfit") sees the continually gathering warriors and stops his "charge". Wrong move from Custer's point of view!! But from Reno's point of view, he sees no IMMEDIATE support and figures halting is better than getting drawn in and destroyed.
I guess |
| wILD I |
Posted - June 22 2004 : 04:44:48 AM
Various points
Crab What's the safest portion of a circular position? The middle.The middle is the most dangerious as most of the fire converges there.
Its fairly obvious the battalion was caught in an offensive posture, The command was not in an offensive posture it was strung out in column of march over 1/2 a mile
. Crossing into the village might have cost him lives.You don't cross into a village of 1500 warriors as if out for a day's stroll.
. He dropped off the right wing to hold the warriors off.He did no such thing.Custer hadn't a clue and was just hoping for something to turn up.
DC, I agree, and believe the decisions so off the wall that I don't think Custer made them.The only decision Custer made was to proceed northward looking for a favourable crossing point.Everything else was just a reaction
Dave Ask yourself this. If Custer is dead, mortally wounded, whatever at the MTC crossing and you're in charge, where do you go? You've pointed out on numerous occasions that the land around LSH (surely a misnomer) is unsuitable for defense, and from the pictures I've seen of the ground, I'd agree. So why would Custer or his captains choose this ground over Reno Hill?It was the only option they had
Can you see a situation developing at the MTC ford where the Indians have outflanked Custer to the point where his only option is to retreat to the north. I can't, but feel free to suggest away.He was hit so hard and quick that there was nothing else open to him
DC If you're on the offensive, cross at MTC and hit hard and quick.Now just how quick do you think a column of 5 troops streaching back 1/2 a mile could cross the river?Reno said it took him 15 minutes to form up his command to charge.
Cheers
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| joseph wiggs |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 10:20:46 PM
I believe, rightly or wrongly, that Custer's plans evolved as the circumstances dictated. Initially, he was convinced that the Indians would, "go on the Jump!" Reno's charge proved this not to be true. Thus, a change in plans. Is it possible that at Ford "B", he saw what appeared to be a vacant -warriors to the left, women and children to the right- actually the middle portion being vacant. Now, the plan changes again. Relieve Reno from the full blunt of the Indian attack while continuing to track the real prize, the women and children. I don't profess to know what actually happened but, speculation is interesting! |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 4:12:44 PM
No, one does not assume that. Why would one, since it isn't said or implied?
But with only ten people there at MTC, you imply, the advantage of numbers and surprise and shortest distance to anything in the camp on cavalry ground was thrown away to continue north for what advantage or purpose in full view? |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 1:31:27 PM
"If you'er on the offensive, cross at MTC and hit hard and quick."
Does one assume, from the above statement, that any other action other than crossing at MTC, constitutes a defensive maneuver? According to this logic, Custer did not attack(Offensive thrust)therefore he was in a denfensive mode. The words Cavalry and offensive are interchangleable; representing aggression and atacking.
Custer Attacking or not attacking at MYC are military options. The Cheyenne warriors spoke of appoximantly 10 or so of their people meeting a detachment of soldiers at Ford "B"/MTC. After exchanging numerous rounds, the detachment turned hard right and departed. Benteen concluded that a heavy engagement did not occur at this point due to the absence of fallen warriors or soldiers. Thus, evidence shows that Custer selected a the option of continuing north. Custer could have crossed, turned left and, attacked the warriors from the rear. Such an action would have enabled the non-combatants to escape. The military approach of soldiers at Ford "B" was a military "Feint" to draw away some of the Indian forces from Ren's front. It worked. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 11:58:45 AM
If you're on the offensive, cross at MTC and hit hard and quick, as you'd intimated to Reno and which makes the most sense, since you're cavalry and you know once stopped in contact witht the enemy, you're rather cooked. You don't take cavalry on a visible journey as much to the east as north, away from the village, and irresponsibly onto bad ground visible as such from Weir Point. You especially don't do this to "wait" for Benteen or to put on a smoke and mirror program of light afternoon entertainment of military finesse for an enemy without central command that doesn't react as if it had central command anyway.
If, on the other hand, the crossing of all five was contested at MTC, Custer hurt, then all strategy becomes local; the three hindmost companies retreat in good order but under increasing attack to Calhoun to await devlopments, the first two deflected fight to LSH carrying wounded. Some don't know Custer is hurt, Custer hasn't relinquished command, Keogh and Calhoun responsibly deploy while awaiting orders that don't come. Messy moments of mounting hysteria and confusion.
Zero proof, except it fits the field and what Custer did not do and normally would have, is simple and fits the facts and timelines. Not much fun, though. The 101st Henry Division - where NA's fight in units based on similar weaponry - vanishes like all the casings from MTC where railroad picnics and search sessions enjoyed a vogue. |
| dave |
Posted - June 21 2004 : 10:35:40 AM
Dark Cloud
With all due respect, I have to disagree. To me, for Custer to have fallen where he did - Custer (or his proxy) can only have been on the offensive.
Ask yourself this. If Custer is dead, mortally wounded, whatever at the MTC crossing and you're in charge, where do you go?
Personally I'd head back to Reno Hill, or to the pack train. Failing that I might head diametrically away from the village. Anything except move north on path which parallels the village and exposes the column to any excited Indian.
You've pointed out on numerous occasions that the land around LSH (surely a misnomer) is unsuitable for defense, and from the pictures I've seen of the ground, I'd agree. So why would Custer or his captains choose this ground over Reno Hill?
If Custer wasn't on the offensive, then the only reasonable assumption would seem to be that he was driven there. Can you see a situation developing at the MTC ford where the Indians have outflanked Custer to the point where his only option is to retreat to the north. I can't, but feel free to suggest away. |
| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 11:43:25 PM
No Wiggs, it doesn't. But then, you misplaced the quotation marks.
BB, I agree, and believe the decisions so off the wall that I don't think Custer made them. |
| benteens brother |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 10:30:08 PM
You can argue about Custer's intentions until the cows come home but the bottom line is that he made the wrong decisions after MTC. His actions resulted in his command being wiped out. He failed to read the intentions of the enemy and continued with a course of action that resulted in annihilation. If he knew Reno had retreated and was out of the game then you can't blame Reno anymore. If he knew that one element of his attack plan had failed then he should have consolidated the regiment and come up with something new. As it was he continued on and got whacked. No one to blame but himself. |
| joseph wiggs |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 10:00:20 PM
DC, does the term, "playing with semantics(obstreperously) ring a bell?" |
| El Crab |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 9:57:33 PM
It wasn't the charge being ended that was the problem. It was the mistakes made despite very, very light casualties that led to heavy casualties. He seemed to have wilted in the face of questionable force. I'm sure the situation was extremely harrowing. But the losses just weren't there until Reno fled the valley. |
| Brent |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 07:34:17 AM
El Crab:
Reno was no "baby"--but he was a perfectly ordinary cavalry commander. No doubt he could have continued his charge/trot/advance but when he saw the Indians gathering and no genuine sign of the promised support, he stopped and the rest is history. Had he continued--and as long as it took Custer to figure out exactly where he(Custer) was going to attack--he (Reno)probably would have been busted up badly. He must have realized early on that the "support" he was promised wasn't going to be direct and that Custer did intend to "support" him by way of attacking in another direction. BUT--it took too long. From Reno's point of view, Custer's movement was doing little or nothing to distract the Indians from "gathering" in front of him. And when he saw that, I guess he reacted as an ordinary cavalry commander might be expected to do--he prepared to defend himself.
If Reno's halt doomed Custer--Custer's lack of promt support contributed to that halt. And where oh where was Benteen?? Yep--off on a scout with 143 troops just to determine IF any Indians were in that part of the valley and IF they were there, prevent their escape. And IF they had been there, his command may have gotten all tied up anyway, rendering them useless to support anybody and in fact maybe needing support themselves.
So we have a good plan in theory (with suprise added ) rendered null and void by (essentially)lack of coordination. And maybe it couldn't have been coordinated anyway--it was all done on the spot and in quick fashion--sort of "winging it" based on how the situation was developing.
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| Dark Cloud |
Posted - June 20 2004 : 03:44:49 AM
Wiggs, you'd be the only one in such need of help with 'obvious hyperbole', a term you apparently had to look up. Further, you don't seem to understand that Boyeur saying that this was the largest village he'd ever seen (if he said it)is different from your statement "the largest gathering of Indians ever know" which probably upset the Chamber of Commerce for Mexico City, or the Inca capital or even those who recalled Chohokia here in the US. It might not even have been as large as the one that participated at Kildeer Mt. in 1864, composed of many of the same tribes.
And to drop kick you around again, your summations of what I say are now inferior to even Lorenzo's, who - if not actually a put on, as I sometimes suspect - doesn't speak, write, or read the language very well. But then, your summations of what you yourself have said are just as riddled with error. |
| Anonymous Poster8169 |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 10:43:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by joseph wiggs
Secondly, Mitch Boyer advised Custer that the village he was about to attack was the largest congregation of Indians he had ever seen in his 30 years of experience. This is not a hyperbole.
Seeing as how Bouyer was only 39 years old and was counting his pre-pubescent years as "experience", it obviously was hyperbole. How, on the other hand, you're able to convert Bouyer's windy assertion into the bigger claim that the LBH village composed the "largest gathering of Indians ever know [sic]" is a mystery which I won't attempt to solve. That Bouyer knew maybe, though we don't have his written word for it. But you're taking a leap beyond what the evidence can justify.
R. Larsen
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| joseph wiggs |
Posted - June 19 2004 : 8:36:50 PM
That's the problem, I didn't recognize your "Obviously Hyperbole" from anything else you write. Please forgive me. For future reference, perhaps you can place an-H for Hyperbole- after the next statement you don't mean.
Secondly, Mitch Boyer advised Custer that the village he was about to attack was the largest congregation of Indians he had ever seen in his 30 years of experience. This is not a hyperbole. |
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