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lane batot
Colonial Settler
USA
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October 15 2011
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 Posted - November 25 2011 : 09:10:04 AM
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Oooookkkkaaaaayyyyy.....regarding the "Rush Limbau" link--are you SERIOUS? Or do you just post such propaganda drivel to provoke discussion? Well, it worked for me! I hesitate to git into all this, because I think politically I don't exactly jibe with most of the posters here(whaht wood vous aixpekt frum zee coureur de bois?), and perhaps I should just stick to storytelling about my experiences/thoughts on the movie--but somtimes, sometimes, you just HAVE to raise the tomahawke and strike the war post!!! Everyone who blindly just accepts what Mr. Limbau says, should do a LOT of reading on the subject(as I have), and from various cultural angles to get a truly ACCURATE picture of what happened at Plymouth Rock! Rush says the original(I'll admit, somewhat romanticized) version in the school books is WRONG, then proceeds to admit later in his comments that indeed the Indians DID help the pilgrims considerably(and very likely saved the day for them--they saved them simply by not wiping their arses out, which they well could have done had they wished), and yes, the pilgrims DID take the Indians land by the next generation. My schoolbooks actually avoided mentioning the pilgrims later behaviour towards the Indians, but I can imagine modern versions would get into this! And you can't get around the FACT that greedy, "free-enterprise" Eurocentric society turned on and wiped out or drove off(or just eliminated incidentally with disease) their former Indian allies. It ain't purty, but it's HISTORY. I actually, though, admire that first generation of pilgrims, as they did try very hard , and were successful, in their efforts to live alongside the Indians--it was not until later generations that things fell apart--mainly due to greed for land(private enterprise), and intolerance of cultural differences(racial and religious prejudice). And "Free Enterprise" from the puritanic pilgrims????? Perhaps somewhat in business matters(probably more because they COULDN'T control their subjects as much as they wanted, rather than some genius economical philosophy!), but puritanical society was one of the MOST restrictive and oppressive to individuals(ESPECIALLY in regards to religious beliefs!) ever seen on this continent! Kinda ironic, since they left England for "religious freedom"! Most of us wouldn't last a week back then without ending up in the "stocks", or worse!....to be continued....
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lane batot
Colonial Settler
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 09:33:41 AM
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| .....and communal living doesn't work? Maybe it wasn't working for the pilgrims right away--or maybe they just didn't(or COULDN'T) give it more time, but it MOST CERTAINLY DOES WORK! Has Rush not even taken the most basic Anthropology course? How were those Indians who helped the pilgrims living? For THOUSANDS Of YEARS? Communal living NOT based on selfish "free enterprise" has worked for TENS OF THOUSANDS of years for every indigenous people on every continent on this planet! Alas, it does not COMPETE very well with modern, aggressive, greedy, exploitive, and conscioussless private enterprise, and it may SEEM to work just great in the short term(we're talking milleniums here, folks), but you have to be BLIND, DEAF, and VERY DUMB, to NOT see that in the long term, such blatant, selfish consumerism is destroying the very ability of this planet to support such a philosophy/lifestyle, and when society collapses(which, mark my words, IT WILL eventually--in our lifetime? A few generations away? Another thousand years if we're really lucky?), it ain't gonna seem so clever, destroying your own species' ability to survive on the planet! I think the planet will survive, and renew and recover, but what a shame that we take so much with us in the process(as we are at this moment). What we need more than ever these days, is to study and try to incorporate some of those "primitive" peoples' ideals, and not let making a buck or inane aquisition of THINGS being what's most important to us as a society. Rather appropo subject, wouldn't you say, on a "Black Friday", the insane, inane day devoted to getting more STUFF! Is that all we are to each other now? Vessels of aquisition and profits? At the cost of the environment and every other critter on the planet? At the cost of our own humanity? Give me life with a bunch of "savages" any day! Let us be THANKFUL that some remnant of these ideals DOES still survive among the indigenous peoples' of the world(despite "free enterprise's" efforts to stamp out and destroy every vestige of them), and there is still time to learn and readapt our ways before we destroy things for everybody! I just finished Russel Means epic, brutally honest autobiography. Can you tell? I'd LOVE to pit Russel Means against Rush Limbau in a debate scenario! Rush Limbau WOULD NOT survive! |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 10:31:11 AM
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But the Native population were hardly "greenies" and were perfectly willing to destroy their own environment and way of life to buy the trade goods the whites had to offer. The Europeans didn't have to take the land from them, they traded it away for knives, kettles, blankets, trade guns (to kill more animals so they could get more goods). Then when it finally reached the point that they couldn't slaughter enough deer to sustain their out-of-control consumerism, they traded away their land. Some didn't go along with all this (thing Dragging Canoe and Tecumseh) and wars were fought against the whites over their differences, but in the end mercantilism won out. I am sure Mr. Means would not see it this way, but he tends to filter history through his own lens. I like him, but that doesn't mean he is right. Just means I like him.
And the Pilgrims? As nasty as the Spanish. The only good ones were the French! |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 11:46:56 AM
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| Ha ha! I KNEW this was going to provoke some responses! Well hey, this website needs some ACTION! And yup, both of you (Modnadnock Guide and Fitzhugh Williams) are QUITE right--American Indian society was by no means perfect--no human society ever has been(unless maybe those Neanderthals were--all the more reason for the Cro Magnons to destroy them!) You might mistake me for an overly romantic wannabe injun lover, but you would be WAY off(though I can see why I come across that way sometimes!). I accept Indian society warts-and-all, and don't try to pretend they were perfect. No doubt many Indians(maybe even a majority over time) helped destroy/sell their own lands--but I am referring to the ones(like Dragging Canoe and Tecumseh, etc. Hey--an aside--I'd really LOVE to see a Dragging Canoe movie made--wouldn't Wes Studi be PERFECT for THAT role? And perhaps it could be a Nancy Ward movie too--it would kinda have to be! I don't know why someone hasn't already made several!) that fought against it and upheld the IDEALS of their society--it is the IDEALS we should strive for, of course. And Native American(and other indigenous folk) have some SUPERB ideals that it would behoove us to pay attention to. Things Wallstreet and modern governments seem terribly ignorant about(and/or contemptuous of). I don't really have anything against the use of free enterprise either, so long as it is tempered by decency and doesn't put greed and personal acquisition above basic morality, and common sense(as in NOT DESTROYING THE ENVIRONMENT WHICH WE ALL NEED TO SURVIVE!!) One American Indian ideal I think that is great, and that we should adhere to, I picked up from an Ojibwa medicine man--how we should make our descisions based on what effect they may have 7 generations down the line--this is something almost NO eurocentric culture takes into consideration. They view it as too impractical. And though it may be too impractical for IMMEDIATE needs, that's EXACTLY the point! It is very unwise to NOT think ahead like that, for any society. And yes, obviously many Indians after the euro-invasion were no longer thinking that way(influenced away from their culture's ideals)--but we're(I'm) talking ideals here. And I also have to agree that Mr. Means does get his historical facts mixed up or purposefully glosses over them--you have to keep that in mind for sure when reading his book or listening to his speeches--but he does show the world that American Indian ideals STILL exist, and are worth consideration....... |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 11:50:11 AM
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| ....besides, wouldn't you just LOVE to see Russel Means vs. Rush Limbau! I mean, talk about the bout of the century! |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 12:04:31 PM
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| ....while on the subject of American Indians not being such "greenies" themselves--again, that depends on WHICH Indians and WHEN you are talking about historically. No doubt they were doing a better job than the Europeans upon first contacts--lack of technology? Lower population pressures? Or could it be they were actually adhering somewhat to cultural ideals(which quickly got turned on their head with the appearance of the very different European cultures--rather like we might once the aliens from outer space decide to settle!)? And exactly WHERE did these ideals come from? Could they have developed from hard-learned experiences over the milleniums? That is my own pet theory at least--cultural patterns and ideals had to start somewhere, and the Native American ideals and respect for the environment and the creatures in it may well have developed because they had already been through an extremely wasteful, greedy, environmentally disrespectful period--like the extinctions of the magnificent mega fauna that used to roam the North American continent. Could the wasteful slaughter and eventual extinction of these wonderful beasts begun the ideals of respect towards our brother animals, and taking only what you need to survive, as opposed to maximizing profits? And legends in almost every tribe, like with the Cherokees' tale of the origin of disease(given to mankind for not respecting and wasting the animals they killed)-- Kinda a "been-there-done-that" based philosophy, which it would behoove us to acknowledge and keep from repeating it any more than we've already done....... |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 1:11:25 PM
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| You are right. Nancy Ward gets no respect! Most people never heard of her. In north Georgia, near Clayton, the is a location called "War Woman Dell" and the locals concoct a story about it being named after Nancy Hart, when it was already being called War Woman Dell long before that time. Named after Nanya Hi. It would make a great story if anybody bothered to tell it. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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James N.
Colonial Militia
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 1:51:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
And the Pilgrims? As nasty as the Spanish. The only good ones were the French!
Ah, Fitz!
The Iroquois who encountered Champlain ( and their descendants for the next century ) would mostly disagree with that last statement! |
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James N.
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 2:06:14 PM
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And Lane,
Not to take issue with any of your statements, with most of which I heartily agree; but I'd just like to ask if you'd ever read/heard of a little eye-opener I reviewed here a year or so ago:
http://www.mohicanpress.com/messageboard/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7052
Though not particularly germaine to this specific discussion, I found it an "engrossing" ( pun intended! ) - if highly disgusting - subject overall. Think things like this might possibly have served to prejudice the early Europeans? ( Excepting, of course, Fitz's French? ) |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 2:56:56 PM
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| Fitzhugh Williams, when I used to live on the Tennessee/N.C. border(sigh--wish I still did!), and went to visit my relations(ma's side of the family) in and near Rome, Georgia(the Cherokees' former "New Echota", and their last capitol in the East before removal) I used to pass(and regularly stopped and visited) Nancy Ward's gravesite, which has fortunetely been preserved. Her son Five Killer(known for his keeping of wolves for companions) is also buried there--a fine, sentimental visit, if you ever get the chance. My ma's family is rumored to be part Cherokee, but they probably just kept quiet about that during removal, and so avoided what more outspoken "Cherokees" did not--many of those removed were very Caucasian in appearance and genetics, but they made the "mistake" of identyfying themselves with the Cherokee Nation....And yeah, they GOTTA do a Nancy Ward/Dragging Canoe historically correct movie one of these days!!! |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 3:25:48 PM
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| ....and yeah, James; some of those "warts" I mentioned--nobody's perfect! And some cultural differences/beliefs ARE rather hard to swallow!(pun most definetely intended!). I can well see why the Europeans were shocked and mortified at times, but as in all prejudices, they conviently, all too often, lumped ALL Indians in the brutal-savage category. And getting "civilized" never did the Indians any good, either--in fact, tended to make them MORE vulnerable to the uglier side of European oppression/genocide. Being one of the very "progressive" five civilized tribes didn't help the Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Chickasaw, or Seminoles either--it still boiled down to the more powerful white government(and its constituents) wanted their land, and by God, they were going to take it! Indians that accepted Christianity and settled down peacefully usually, sadly, became sitting ducks for the less savory of European/American members of society.... And I read(it was EXCELLENT!) the Comanche book "Empire Of The Summer Moon"(among LOTS of other books on the Comanche)--having relatives on my pa's side that were early Texas settlers, I've always had a great interest in their interactions with the Indians, too--especially and mostly the Comanches. It is rumored that some Indian blood--likely Comanche--got "introduced" during those turbulent, violent years--although most of the relatives VEHEMENTLY deny it! But I like to joke and say, "watch out! I'm 1/64th Comanche!". And talk about atrocities committed on BOTH sides--it is little wonder there was such naked HATE! I've always hoped they'd do a movie on "The Last Captive", --Herman Lehman--who was kidnapped as a young boy by some Apaches, eventually went to live with the Comanches, and was the last captive from those days to be brought in(he DID NOT wish to rejoin his white family!)--great book called "The Last Captive" about his experiences. One of my pa's relatives was actually on the original search party trying(unsuccessfully) to find and recapture Herman Lehman when he was first abducted! And OBVIOUSLY I CAN'T WAIT for Madeline Stowe's new movie to come out on this subject!! Also, I've read all the Allan Eckert books on the confrontations in the East("The Frontiersman", "Wilderness Empire", 'The Wilderness War", etc.), and one thing I really liked about his books is that they are not sugar-coated--he blatantly describes the brutalities on both sides! For whatever reasons, I still tend to relate to the Indians' side more, and if I had been around then, I'm afraid I'd likely have been one-a-them "renegades", or a "sqaw man" perhaps! Which is why I keep saying being cast as an Xtra coureur de bois in "Last Of The Mohicans" was indeed "type casting"! |
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winglo
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 4:54:12 PM
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| Boy! Talk about hijacking a topic! Wouldn't most of this stuff fit more appropriately in "Inside the Longhouse"? |
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 6:08:27 PM
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| One huge mistake we make today is, - we use 21st Century morals/politics and apply it to a time where EVERYONE looked at things in a different light, and that's putting it mildly. Conquest of another land etc. was/is NOT restricted to white explorers/adventurers. Indian tribes pushed each other around constantly, - and being killed in a battle was light years ahead of being captured. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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SgtMunro
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 7:03:43 PM
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quote:
Monadnock Guide said: Conquest of another land etc. was/is NOT restricted to white explorers/adventurers. Indian tribes pushed each other around constantly, - and being killed in a battle was light years ahead of being captured.
Well MG, if you look back in the board archives, you will find that I made a similar statement almost ten years ago. It really torpedoed the 'Native Apologists' when I supported my argument with fact in opposition to their customary (as well as tired & hackneyed) "my people..." rant.
Some folks just can't get over the fact that 'Billy Jack' was a fictional character, in an equally fictional world.
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - November 25 2011 : 8:59:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by James N.
Ah, Fitz!
The Iroquois who encountered Champlain ( and their descendants for the next century ) would mostly disagree with that last statement!
Champlain simply took sides in an ongoing conflict. And the Mohawk were "land stealers" of the worst kind. Right up there with the Spanish and Puritans. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 26 2011 : 08:39:29 AM
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| Yes, Winglo, we have diverged somewhat, so--HAPPY THANKSGIVING everyone! Now back to the discussion..... |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 26 2011 : 09:30:09 AM
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| ....Ha! Hope I'm not aggravating you guys too much with my newbie enthusiasm--but you must realize I NEVER EVER get to discuss these subjects(of great interest to moi) with other humans ever! And I KNOW most of you guys are probably well-versed in much of the subject matter, but it is just too fun to git to ramble on about it(Happy Thanksgiving!).....And yes Monadnock Guide, one must be careful to not judge past cultures by today's standards--I guess we all are guilty of that to some degree--very hard(if not impossible) not to be! And though it is true that American Indians certainly fought brutally with one another constantly as well(and I'm not about to try and state that it was just more of a "sport" with them--although the Cherokee referred to war as "the beloved profession"--, and all they ever did was "count coup", as I have heard such apologists try to candy-coat the historical facts), at least they didn't alter/destroy the environment so much that neither many animals nor people who wished to continue living close to Nature(and not FORCED to "walk-the-white-man's-road") could survive anymore. I know somewhat from experience myself how this is just NOT an option allowed by modern Western society--I once was reduced to living in a tipi(with a wolf-dog, who was of great assistance in many ways) and hunting squirrels daily to feed myself. I'd had some really bad luck and encounters with more civilized folk, who successfully disillusioned me in regards to mankind. This attempt to get away from it all was actually one of the most peaceful and fulfilling times in my life(although I do realize many squirrels would disagree). But after only a few weeks, my camp was discovered and totally confiscated(boy! was THAT a major chore! A 14 foot tipi and all the accoutrements!) by game wardens(hey, I HAD a valid white-man hunting liscence and everything!). I was labeled a "vagrant" and fined out my arse for living in a newly designated wilderness area(of which I had no idea--I picked the spot--in the Big Thicket in Texas, BECAUSE it was isolated!)--not that I had any money at all--one reason I was living "wild"--i. e. "a vagrant". They were very nice about it all, at least(I'd have probably just been shot a century ago), and even offered me a job, as they said they were impressed with my woods-skills and campsite. I of course declined--I'd have had to cut my hair, wear a uniform, and submit to militaristic discipline--if those guys couldn't see how tempermentally unsuited to that sort of lifestyle I was, then they were purty blind......oh, and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!.... |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 26 2011 : 09:45:47 AM
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| So, Sgt. Munroe, you'll hardly find me an "apologist"--I actually find the warfare and horse stealing and other American Indian "no-no" habits the MOST interesting! I never stole any horses(yet--but I have temporarily "borrowed" them for a day...), but I have swiped chickens(don't laugh--it can be a VERY dangerous situation, getting caught in someone's chicken house at midnight!), AND counted coup on some bluecoats(cops). And as a kid, I was involved in a childish equivelent of virtual tribal warfare with various other neighborhood groups of kids--we looted, raided, and wreaked havoc on each other constantly--it was a BLAST! Kids today--they just DON'T know how to have fun anymore(sigh). When reading of actual historical encounters between invading Europeans and Indians, I am actually often frustrated the Indians didn't wreak MORE havoc than they did! So, I ain't apologizing for them, so much as just blatantly siding with them! Because I relate to their(former) cultures and lifestyles more than I do more modern "civilized" ones. And you are probably now getting why some family members refer to me as the "throwback"! And little wonder why "Last Of The Mohicans" attracted me..... Oh, and HAPPY THANKSGIVING! |
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James N.
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Posted - November 26 2011 : 10:39:44 AM
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And now Happy Post-Thanksgiving to you, Lane!
"...at least they didn't alter/destroy the environment so much that neither many animals nor people who wished to continue living close to Nature...could survive anymore."
I tend to think that's rather because they lacked the CAPACITY to do much damage, rather than any inherent revulsion against doing so. Plains tribes regularly started prairie fires ( NOT necessarily a bad thing ecologically speaking, but did they KNOW that? ) to either drive buffalo/bison herds or enemies. Large centers of prehistoric population like the Mound cultures of the Ohio and Mississippi watersheds ( not to forget the pyramid builders of Mexico and Central America ) were certainly not loath to "rearranging" THEIR landscapes to advantage. And it can hardly be said that their own penchant for wanton slaughter in the form of human sacrifice had no negative impact: do you think Moctezuma might've benefited from having an even larger and LOYAL population when Cortez' conquistadores showed up? Another indictment against them is the simple observation that I THINK was repeated in either Dances With Wolves or Little Big Man, ( probably the latter due to its cynicism ), something to the effect that you couldn't tell where a Plains Indian camp's garbage dump was because the entire camp WAS the garbage dump! Indeed, the dwellers in the Chucilissa Village in the southern suburbs of Memphis, Tenn. apparantly simply put their dead outside thier huts built on mounds, in no particular order with perhaps a little earth scattered over them - not in the best manner ecologically or from a health or sanitation standpoint, I'd say.
Being cynical myself, I think rather it's just that their stone-age culture with its relatively low population density has given birth to this, yet another myth of "The Noble Red Man", that of the eternally wise and careful custodian of Mother Earth. After all, we're talking about people who never developed the wheel and whose largest beasts of burden were dogs, slaves, and ( in South America ) llamas!
"When reading of actual historical encounters between invading Europeans and Indians, I am actually often frustrated the Indians didn't wreak MORE havoc than they did! So, I ain't apologizing for them, so much as just blatantly siding with them!"
That's probably the single most incomprehensible aspect of their culture to me, said totally from hindsight! I can understand intellectually all the reasons for this attitude of continuing inter-tribal warfare and competetion, but at the same time want to shout down the ages, "CAN'T YOU SEE HOW STUPID THIS IS?! YOU'RE DESTROYING YOURSELVES!"
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lane batot
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Posted - November 26 2011 : 1:11:07 PM
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| Happy post-Thanksgiving! No doubt a certain technological lack for environmental destruction was part of the reason, but when you read actual accounts from historical(not just modern apologists) Indians interviewed, there IS something to the "Noble Red Man" ideal--it is not a total myth, even if every individual or every cultural group lived up to it. And constant conflict within the individual tribes between traditionalists, and those that wanted the white man's goods and lifestyle at any cost--these conflicts are STILL going on today! But there are some very highly developed, advanced morals and social, and environmental ideals amongst the "savages". Eurocentric thinking tends to rate peoples as being "advanced" or not based on their materialistic technology--the Australian Aborigines, for example, are often "rated" as being the most backward and primitive(even subhuman by many) because of their complete lack of material goods--not even clothing, in many cases! Yet they have an INCREDIBLY rich spiritual and ceremonial philosophy, that most Europeans never bothered with learning, because they just couldn't get past the "primitive" appearance of the race! Some of the old Native American concepts involving environmental issues are STILL vastly superior to modern Western views--it depends which tribe at which period you are talking about. Indeed, many of the huge, agriculturally based mega civilizations(Aztecs, Mayans, Incas, Mississipian Mound Builders) were NOT very enviromentally wise(which should be a lesson to our own civilization!), but they were surrounded at even those times with more "primitive" folk who refused to submit to these civilizations efforts to dominate them and the environment, even as later "primitive" Indians resisted(less successfully, alas) the European invasion. There is some speculation that it may have been outright rebellion from within and outside the society(perhaps allied with one another) that caused the Mississipian culture to collapse(or disease, or environmental degradation, or a combination of all these things). American Indian societies were certainly never static. Regardless of the whys and wherefores and speculations on what future Native America might have developed(doomed to their own eventual Industrial Revolution, perhaps?), the historical fact remains, that when Europeans arrived on this continent, it was an INCREDIBLE natural paradise, with game animals and birds in such abundance as to provoke wonder and amazement to every European witness that recorded their experiences. It breaks my heart to only be able to read about what has been lost. And the fact remains that in only a few centuries, they despoiled it to the point that only remnants survive, and even those islands of wilderness are under constant attack from "free enterprise"! In my own lifetime, I have been pushed out of one area after another by "development", and there seems no place left much for people like me. I KNOW what it is like to know a territory so well you know every tree, and wild animals on an individual basis, and to see it all destroyed--the animals driven out or killed, the trees butchered, the water so polluted not even fish can live in it any more. Then I read accounts of Indians despairing of the same things, throughout the history of this country(and other "primitive" indigenous peoples throughout the world), forced against their will to "walk-the-white-man's-road", and I can't help but relate. I think there was plenty of understanding of being harmonious with the earth, not just a lack of technological ability. Were there exceptions to that? Sure, but plenty more that were not/are not exceptions. And as for examples, how many of those exceptions outlasted the more "primitive" societies?...to be continued..... |
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lane batot
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Posted - November 26 2011 : 3:55:38 PM
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| .... in response to some of your specific comments, James, Native Americans(and other indigenous peoples, especially in Africa and Australia) certainly DID set fires, but this was to IMPROVE grazing for the game animals, as well as control parasites--it did no permanent damage to the environment, and was little different than naturally occurring fires started by lightning, etc. So, there is a concept of doing something environmentally beneficial in those cultures right there! That "dump" comment was from "Little Bigman"--both the movie, and the even BETTER book! But again, nomadic plains Indians that moved constantly had no need for elaborate sanitation--and everything they discarded was 100% biodegradable back then! The Europeans weren't much better at that either, reading descriptions of peasant village life throughout Europe! As for just putting out dead bodies--that is common in many cultures--Nature cleans them up purty quickly, actually--don't let the modern day propaganda about the NECESSITY to embalm bodies and put them in sealed(very expensive, of course; free enterprise, don't you know) coffins 6 feet underground fool you--unless there is a massive die-off of big critters faster than the scavengers and elements can take care of, Nature deals with that VERY efficiently! That's a pet peeve of mine, actually. I HOPE when my time comes, I have the strength and mental faculty to crawl off to some isolated patch of woods and croak there, and feed some buzzards and coyotes and foxes and 'possums or whatever comes along! I find the idea of being embalmed and entombed repulsive and incredibly selfish--as do many "primitive" cultures. Just think, we spend our whole lives consuming and taking from the earth, and then are too selfish to even give our dead carcasses back to the system! Besides, just crawling off or a shallow burial is a HECKUVA lot cheaper, that's for sure! And the invention of the wheel is GREATLY overated--you need large enough domestic animals(not available to Native Americans) to make wheeled vehicles very practical, and an oppressive government to make road systems using either slave or repressed peasant labor--something egalitarian Indian societies did not have OR WANT! The Inca's had an AMAZING network of roads, but they were also NOT an egalitarian society by any means! And even when you had wheels vs, say, the travois--over most terrain, the travois was superior. What was that the Nez Perce called General Howard when he was pursuing them with those superior wheeled wagons? "General-Day-After-Tomorrow"? Because he was always a coupla days behind! An EXCELLENT book(and PBS documentary by the same name) as to the whys and wherefores of European superiorities, is Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, And Steel"--HIGHLY recommended to any of you who have not read the book or seen the documentaries! |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
March 14 2005
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Posted - November 26 2011 : 4:49:54 PM
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| Lane, perhaps you should move to an area that's reasonably warm year-round, find a nice comfy cave somewhere and move in. - To say that, - yes, some Indians did nasty things, but some didn't, - big deal frankly. That exact same thing could be said of every society that's populated this planet since day one, ... it doesn't move anyone to the front of the line. No more on this from me, - I don't share your obsessions on "free enterprise" or Indian life styles, - but I do wish you well. |
you can keep "The Change" |
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lane batot
Colonial Settler
USA
Bumppo's Patron since [at least]:
October 15 2011
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Posted - November 27 2011 : 1:00:33 PM
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| Monadnock Guide, if I DID move into a cave, I'd probably just get arrested and fined again for "vagrancy"! I HAVE temporarily sheltered in caves when caught out during inclinement weather, by the way, but I MUCH prefer a tipi or an earth lodge, thank you! I actually have built several small earth lodges based on miniature versions of a Pawnee or Mandan lodge--they were VERY comfortable--the smallest fire would keep them toasty warm in freezing weather, and they were quite cool in the summer, too! All of them eventually discovered and destroyed by people and progress(sigh)....And sorry, it IS a big deal regarding opinions on repressed peoples like American Indians--their persecution and genocide is based directly on others trying to dehumanize them throughout history, and others who wish to counteract that by trying to present them in a more positive light, even if they sometimes do so unrealistically as well. It is a VERY BIG DEAL--their very survival as a distinct people depends on it. And if they wish to remain a distinct people, I think they should have as much right as any other cultural group. It has nothing to do with getting to the "front of the line". This conversation HAS diverged from the original topic somewhat, which was refuting Rush Limbau's using Thanksgiving to promote his (incorrect) ideals about the history of the Holiday. Sorry Rush, the Indians DID help the pilgrims(and belonged to a successful communal living egalitarian society for millenium), and once free enterprise began among the colonists, it most definetely contributed to the greed of the colonists that led to the turning on and wiping out and/or expulsion of the very Indians that originally assisted those pilgrims!....And me "obsessed"? I always just thought I was really, really, really INTERESTED in American Indians(and other indigenous peoples still living closely with Nature), and anything and everything about critters, and Nature,(and chocolate--well, wait a minute; I AM obsessed with chocolate!) and learning all I could about them, and sharing it with others given any opportunity(as I have been on this message board). With a subject like "Last Of The Mohicans" as a title, I'd think lots of other folks on here would also be so "obsessed"! And I'm NOT obsessed regarding "free enterprise" at all--I think it is great--SOMETIMES, IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS. Like the Indians(and all other peoples), it can be good or bad, but it can lead to greed and abuse(kinda like our current economical crisis in the U. S. A.), and is NOT the answer to everything, as Rush Limbau's propaganda would lead some to believe...... |
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Thanksgiving and Indians?
