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 LAST OF THE MOHICANS
 The Last of the Mohicans ...
 Of Pistols and Pockets
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Author Previous Topic: Breakfast with Mohicans Poll Topic Next Topic: Eric Schweigs Unexplainable [to me!] Mystique
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Wilderness Woman
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Young George Washington
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  12:53:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Remember the scene where Cora takes a pistol from a soldier who was killed and stuffs it into her pocket for later use? What am I saying! Of course you all remember it! After all, don't we all have every scene in the movie emblazoned on our brains?

Well, that scene has bothered me for a while now, ever since I learned the details of women's 18th century clothing. And now that I own a reproduction flintlock pistol, I am even more bothered by it. So I would like to offer some observations, reasons, and a conclusion. Any discussion, questions, counterpoints, or opinions are most welcome.

Observation:
Have you noticed the ease with which Cora slips that pistol into her pocket? I submit to you -- that would not have been the case in reality.

Reason:
In the 18th century, ladies' pockets were not sewn into their garments, as they are now. They were worn as a separate garment, tied around their waists. Pockets were like medium-sized, flat bags that were hung on a woven tape. The bags were sort of pear-shaped and had a long vertical slit in the front of them, that allowed entrance into the pocket.

Women wore either one pocket or two. The pockets were sewn to a woven tape, that was then tied around the waist. The pockets, contrary to the belief of some re-enactors, were not worn on the outside of the petticoats so that they showed. They were worn underneath the petticoats.

I wear two pockets tied around my waist, as the extra storage room is nice to have. Also, it balances the weight, making wearing them more comfortable. I put my pockets on after my stays are on, then I put two petticoats on over that. Each petticoat has slits in the side seams, which allows one to put the petticoat on and tie it, and also allows access to the pockets.

When I need to get into my pocket, my hand has to work its way through the side slits of two separate petticoats, then through the slit of the pocket opening. Let me say that this is not an easy task. It seems the slits never line up properly, and often the pockets on their tape have shifted a bit, either to the front or to the back. I learned to make sure that my fingertips touch the bottom of my pocket before I release the object in my fingers. Several times, I had things (once a $20 bill) fall to the ground because I thought my hand was in my pocket, when it was not!

My conclusion to this observation is this: Cora was wearing at least two, perhaps three, petticoats with her riding jacket, plus she was wearing a hip roll. She would have had great difficulty getting that pistol through all of those slits, past all of that fabric, and into her pocket, and I doubt it would have happened on the first try!

Observation:
I don't think it would have been possible to carry a pistol in the pocket, once it was gotten in there.

Reason:
Those things are bulky and heavy!

Now that I have a pistol, have held it in my hand and felt its bulk and weight, I feel that it would have been pretty nearly impossible to carry one in a pocket, even after the difficulty of getting it in there was overcome.

My pistol is a good 14 inches long, and it is one of the shorter ones. My pockets are about 15 inches deep, so my pistol just barely goes in it.

According to my scales, my pistol weighs about 3.5 pounds. If I were to put that into a pocket that was just tied around my waist with lightweight tape, the weight would pull my pockets right down off of my hips.

Observation:
Cora could not have carried that weight in her pocket comfortably.

Reason:
Its bulk, size and weight.
Now, let's give Cora the benefit of the doubt and grant that she did manage to get that pistol through 3 or 4 clothing slits and into her pocket. Let's grant that her pockets stayed in place on her hips. Let's imagine what that 3 pound wood and metal object would have felt like as she walked through the wilderness, and climbed rock cliffs. It would have been extremely uncomfortable and even painful. Imagine that banging against one's thigh with every step! Youch! What a bruise she would have had.

Conclusion:
It is obvious to me that this is yet another inaccuracy in the film. Cora would not, realistically, have slipped that pistol into her pocket and carried it that way

Is it a big deal? No, not really. Just kind of fun to contemplate.

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  1:15:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
May I present...

My Ketland Trade Pistol.

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It's quite plain in design, and is blockier than many other pistol designs. And, yes, it is actually more appropriate for later in the century than I portray. It is more appropriate for the Rev War era or later. But, I won't be using it at events, so that doesn't matter. For my first piece, it is just fine, and I am quite pleased with it.

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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Seamus
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  2:00:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Seamus's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Cora's was also probably balsa and foam rubber, making it maybe a pound...maybe. Your boat anchor will require a cross-shoulder rig and a stout holster hidden under all that finery you wear, so its weight does not rip yer clothes off ya! hahahahaha! Movies can be deceiving...or haven't you noticed?????

Now, you could have a thigh holster and a stout leather waist belt, kinda like a leather garter belt....are you into leather??????????? Just trying to be helpful here, my dear...whadda you think, Fitz? Obi?

On a serious side.....remind me the next time you're here to show you the two original palm-sized flint pistols I have; muff pistols, made by Ryan and Sons, London about 1756. I often carry them in my weskit pockets when I have my gentleman's clothes on. I had them on in Williamsburg when we all went to the Grand Hallucination 2 years ago.
A lady could carry one or both in her muff on a chilly Winter day and feel safe from Highwaymen. They will lay on the palm of my hand with ease and weigh next to zero.

Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'

~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle


Seamus

~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood


Young George Washington
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  2:26:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I would love to see those, Seamus. I didn't realize you had them.

In my online researching, I have seen photos of original Pocket or Muff pistols, but they are always later models -- either box locks or percussion. I have not yet run across any that are side-mounted flintlocks. That's actually what I was looking for when my original thought was to get a non-firing reproduction "toy."

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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Seamus
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  3:39:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Seamus's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
18th century muff, or pocket, pistols were flint boxlock, with the cock aligned to the top center of the barrel, screw-barreled and drop trigger. That made it possible to keep them small and quite concealable. Originals in good to excellent condition ain't cheap today.

Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'

~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle


Seamus

~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  4:13:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Ah-HAH! I knew I could pick some of that knowledge you have stored away out of your brain!

Very interesting! So, there were no side-mount muff pistols? Only the box lock on the top?

When was the box lock first designed and used? I was under the impression they came later on in the century, but I am obviously under the wrong impression for that.

[WW seats herself on her stool and clasps her hands together eagerly, in anticipation of gaining more knowledge from The Master.]

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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richfed
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  4:43:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit richfed's Homepage  Click to see richfed's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Who woulda thunk it?!? Wilderness Woman, a pistol-packin' Mama!!!!
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  4:55:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Perhaps the movie took some artistic license here, - after all we can't have Cora spending 10 minutes trying to "find her pocket". In the mean time, what's everyone else supposed to be doing? I could solve you pistol weight/size problem - I have a 6 round 380 (not .38) semi-auto pistol I don't use. You could probably conceal it in the palm of you hand, and it's relatively light. Not "period correct" of course, - but who'd know? ;)

you can keep "The Change"
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  6:18:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
BTW WW, - that's one VERY nice looking pistol!! (Probably a LOT of squirrels spending sleepless night now)

you can keep "The Change"
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Obediah
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  8:45:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Seamus

..... kinda like a leather garter belt....are you into leather??????????? Just trying to be helpful here, my dear...whadda you think, Fitz? Obi?
.....

Oooooohhhhh...
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - July 26 2008 :  11:46:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
~ chuckling at the reactions and responses ~

First off... no, Seamus, I am not "into" leather, except on my feet. Obi, sorry to disappoint you.

Rich, believe me when I say that no one is more surprised than I am! If you had told me even 3 years ago that I would be the proud owner of a flintlock pistol (not to mention a gun of any kind), I would have told you that you were walking in very loose moccasins.

MG, I appreciate your most kind offer, but I am definitely not into modern guns. Er... at least not now. Glad you like my piece!

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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blackfootblood
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Posted - July 27 2008 :  11:35:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Very nice gun, WW!! I'm sure you're gonna be a pro at it!! In the popular words of the movie "A Christmas Story", "Don't shoot you're eye out!!!" (And I know you won't!)

"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain!"

"Live well, love much, laugh often!"
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richfed
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Posted - July 27 2008 :  6:40:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit richfed's Homepage  Click to see richfed's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Observation [by Wilderness Woman]:
Have you noticed the ease with which Cora slips that pistol into her pocket? I submit to you -- that would not have been the case in reality.



Bear grease, maybe??????

No, I agree with MG -- a clear case of artistic license.

Nice looking little firearm there, Joyce!
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - July 27 2008 :  8:29:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Oh, yeah... absolutely! I do know that it was artistic license in the typical Hollywood fashion, and that the pistol she pocketed was not real, and was most likely made of rubber or balsa wood. In addition, the director probably had the wardrobe mistress put a sewn-in pocket into her petticoat to make it easier. I was just pointing out why it was all so wrong! All meant to be rather tongue-in-cheek and for fun.

And, thanks, Rich!

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted - July 31 2008 :  4:10:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
One thing to remember is where she got it. It was a battlefield pickup. The only ones to have had a pistol would have been the British officers, probably the company captain. And the pistol would most likely have been a military pistol, not a petit model like yours. So the problem is compounded. I do, however, have a French pistol which is not at all heavy, but is .58 cal. It uses a small "Becky"lock from R E Davis and carries quite well. Better than my K-frame S&W. So it might have been possible, but not with the one she had.

Sometimes, just for fun, try to hold a trade gun in each hand and shoot them at the same time. While running up Chimney Rock.


"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet"
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - July 31 2008 :  5:00:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Hah! Are you kidding me??? You should have seen me trying to pull the trigger the first time with this one! Seamus was there (at Ti) and witnessed it. I had to shift my hand to get a more "seated" hold on the pistol grip before I could manage to pull the trigger. I'm not sure, as I had my back to them (even though it was not loaded), but I think the guys were snickering behind their hands at me.

But, that will get better as I get more used to it. Can't wait to actually fire it the first time. Woo-hoo!

And yes, I bet that officer's pistol Cora picked up would have been a good 17-18 inches long. No way is something like that going to fit in my pocket!

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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RedFraggle
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Posted - July 31 2008 :  9:18:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit RedFraggle's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman

My conclusion to this observation is this: Cora was wearing at least two, perhaps three, petticoats with her riding jacket, plus she was wearing a hip roll. . . .

Not to get off the topic of pistols, but what's a hip roll? Like a smaller version of panniers? Just curious!
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - July 31 2008 :  10:23:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
No problem, Red. I'm glad you asked.

Well, unless Madeleine Stowe is naturally quite well padded on her hips (which I highly doubt), I feel she was wearing something like this underneath the petticoats of her riding habit. You can tell there is additional padding there in the scene where she is climbing the rocks next to the waterfall.

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The blue and white one is called a hip roll. You will notice that the padding is a bit thicker on the sides than it is on the back portion. This would give the wearer the slightly wider sides (but not as wide as the enormous paniers or even the pocket hoops, and would also provide a little bit of lift in the rear.

The brown one is called a rump or bum roll. As you see, the padding is thicker in the back area, to create the appearance of a bigger bum.

When tying both of these around the waist, they do not fit snugly up around at the waistline. They are tied a bit loosely so they will rest a few inches below the waistline. That way, you don't get a "shelf" appearance, but the fullness lifts the petticoats out away from the body around the hip area.

Hey! In the 18th century, wide was good and big hips were in!

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - August 01 2008 :  06:44:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Lookin' around I'd say we're goin' back to wide & big, .... ;)

you can keep "The Change"
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - August 01 2008 :  09:14:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Unfortunately, you are right, MG. It is sad and frightening. But, it is not the same at all.

Modern wide --

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18th century wide --

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The above lady is wearing a hip roll under that absolutely gorgeous quilted petticoat and jacket. (For those of you women who do quilting, this is an original 18th century outfit that was hand quilted.)

And, since we have gotten onto the subject of hip enhancements, here is a photo of original 18th century undergarments.

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She is wearing her white linen shift, her stays, and her panniers. Over that foundation would come at least 2 linen or silk underpetticoats, a heavy embroidered silk top petticoat, and a matching open robe gown. Add a neckkerchief, an apron, a cap and hat, and she would look a lot like this...

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Absolutely beautiful!

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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RedFraggle
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Posted - August 01 2008 :  10:27:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit RedFraggle's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Modern wide vs. 18th century wide . . . ha ha! But, yes, sad at the same time.

Now my only question is how did women not die of heat exhaustion with all those layers on? I'm trying to picture myself in 96 degree NC heat, carrying about 30 lbs. of clothes that cover me from head to toe. Ack!

Oh, and I imagine it would have been a bit embarrassing if one's "bum roll" happenend to come untied.
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - August 01 2008 :  1:17:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Well, bear in mind that the garments posted above were worn by upper class women who probably had the money to have servants. So, they did not need to do any physical labor, and when it was unbearably hot, they could just sit around, sip cold drinks and fan themselves.

Women of the middlin' and lower classes wore linen, which is a much cooler fabric to wear because it breathes and wicks the sweat away from the body.

A working woman, servant, farm wife, frontier woman, etc. still wore the shift and stays, but did not wear the bum roll (and certainly not the paniers or pocket hoops). She may wear only 1 petticoat, rather than 2 to 4. And her upper body garment was usually a so-called bedgown. This was not worn to bed. It was a very loose, comfortable garment to wear to work in.

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The final point is that because they did not have air conditioning to run in and out of, they were more accustomed to it than we are. Our bodies have to adjust to more rapid changes than theirs did.

Do I get hot when wearing several layers of linen? Sure I do. But, I make sure I am well hydrated at all times, and stay out of the sun as much as possible. A linen hankie that has been wet down in nice cold water, then stuffed down my front helps a lot, too.

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - August 01 2008 :  6:20:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Heh, heh, - I'll bet it does!! ;)

you can keep "The Change"
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - August 01 2008 :  6:27:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Another thing to mention...

While they would not go out in public this way, a working woman could remove her bedgown and work in her petticoat and stays in the privacy of her own home, or "below stairs" in a wealthy home. If you look closely at the painting by Chardin in my previous post, you will see a woman who is hanging up laundry in an adjoining room. You can see the white sleeves of her shift all the way up her arms, and the straps of her stays. Clearly, she has removed her upper outer garment for comfort while working, whereas the laundress chooses to keep hers on.

And btw, in the winter more layers could be added for warmth, and wool was used. Believe me when I say that a thick wool flannel petticoat underneath my linen one in October and November is very welcome!

"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been."
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Seamus
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Posted - August 01 2008 :  7:12:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit Seamus's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
You all out there need to see the 18th Century Ladies' Clothing display WW puts up at some of our educational events. Believe me, it is fantastic...you have seen only a small portion of it here in her last few Posts. THIS gal KNOWS what she is talking about, trust me.

(Gonna cost you a plate of homemade cookies, ol' buddy....heheheheh!)

Life's journey is not to
arrive at the grave safely
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting
'...holy sh*t ...what a ride!'

~~Mavis Leyrer, Seattle


Seamus

~~Aim small, hit the b*****d right between the eyes!~~
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Monadnock Guide
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Posted - August 01 2008 :  8:21:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
You strike a hard bargain Seamus.

you can keep "The Change"
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