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richfed
Sachem
USA
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 Posted - October 01 2006 : 08:50:05 AM
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What do you think & feel?
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Rich
Mohican Press
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Stephanie
Gathering Sachemess
USA
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June 23 2002
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 Posted - October 01 2006 : 09:06:10 AM
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I feel angry that certain racist groups have hijacked a battle flag that men fought under honorably and turned it into a symbol of their small-minded hatred. The way this flag is paraded around now is a disgrace to the men who fought for the Confederacy. I might add that this flag is only one of several battle flags; it is not the flag of the Confederate government and it is NOT the "stars and bars."
Furthurmore, all flags of the Confederacy are defeated flags and belong in museums, not on tailgates or beach towels or racist propaganda. My Confederate forefathers would be ashamed of what has happened to this flag today. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - October 01 2006 : 4:17:35 PM
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| That's almost a tough question in some ways. Unfortunately for history, it also brings into play "The Dukes Of Hazard" group too. I'd say it's a strong reminder of an unfortunate part of our history. I don't have any particular "feelings" about it. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - October 01 2006 : 5:41:40 PM
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| Actually, it is a naval jack, and not a battle flag. The battle flag was square. Personally, I prefer the Stars and Bars. But, really, I prefer the Bourbon flag. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Doc M
Great Quack Healer of the Frontier
USA
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Posted - October 02 2006 : 12:44:04 PM
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Ditto to what Stephanie said. My great-grandfather fought under that flag, and after the War he became a proud citizen of the United States. He certainly didn't have the Confederate flag hanging in
his house, tattooed on himself, or pasted on the back end of his farm wagon as a bumper sticker.
Doc M has a flag hanging outside her house, but it's a lovely Betsy Ross flag as she recognizes nothing that's happened in history after 1789.
Kisses!
Doc M |
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SgtMunro
Soldier of the King
USA
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Posted - October 02 2006 : 4:47:42 PM
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It is one of many flags that Americans had fought and died for, on land and sea, and deserves the same respect of any American battle ensign. The fact that some small-minded bigots use it as a rally symbol is as disgusting to me as the ACLU flying the American Flag in front of their offices (Since they were founded by a communist); but, in a free society, one must tolerate certain things...
YMH&OS,
The Sarge |
Serjeant-Major Duncan Munro
Capt. Thos. Graham's Coy.
42nd Royal Highland Regiment of Foote
(The Black Sheep of the Black Watch)
"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
-Or-
"Recruit locally, fight globally." |
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - October 18 2006 : 10:20:13 PM
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I think that it is sad that the various Confederate flags have been hijacked by racist groups.
I also think that (if it were a high enough priority among the various demands upon one's energy) African Americans could eliminate the racist connotation of the Confederate flags by widespread and respectful display of such flags by the Black Community. After all, Christians took the cross as symbol away from the pagan Roman authorities in such a manner. It is now of course a primary symbol of Christianity--not the Roman torture/terror icon that it originally was. |
We become what we think about. |
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Ridgerunner
Pathfinder
USA
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Posted - November 15 2006 : 02:48:51 AM
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I think it is a beautiful flag,no reason not to fly it or show it off. This flag was flown on the Berlin Wall when the wall was coming down. It is a symbol of freedom and rebellion against tyranny.
Oh...my ancestors were all in the Union Army. |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - November 16 2006 : 7:15:56 PM
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I see it as a flag that should be retired, with Honors. It should no longer be flown anywhere within the United States of America. It is a reminder of a terrible time in our history when brother fought against brother and many men died needlessly, and it needs to be put to rest once and for all.
I am having a difficult time understanding how the Confederate flag could be considered to be a symbol of "freedom." I think there are many people who are the descendants of slaves who would find that statement to be quite hypocritical. |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - November 16 2006 : 8:39:41 PM
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| Hello stranger, - thought maybe you skipped town. |
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blueotter
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - November 17 2006 : 5:14:36 PM
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I think the idea that African Americans could start flying this flag as a way to quell its racist connotation is an interesting one, but not one that is likely to happen! Symbolism is too strong -- it works on our brains sub-consciously and calls up all we know and all we feel about it. Not at all easy to quell!
Also, I don't believe that every Southerner who displays this flag is a racist — I'm sure many are standing up for States Rights, or perhaps trying to honor their ancestors who fought and lost, or even to honor the part of the country wherein their roots can be found. With any group of people — whatever delineates them as a group — there will be those at either end of the spectrum, and a gazillion others in between. We usually only hear about those that make the biggests noise, and never give a thought to the possibility that there are others that don't agree with them.
In a nutshell, I try desperately to see beyond what the big-mouths are trying to shove down my throat! Note: this is in no way directed at anyone here on this list! I almost always respect what people say here... and will only protest if I think someone is stepping horribly over the limits of reasonability!
With best regards,
The Wordy Wench, Rose
Oh, BTW, after I wrote my own opinions above, I Googled "states' rights confederate flag" and came up with this link, which I think is an extremey interesting take on the subject. I read it through, and my thought processes were stimulated in a very profound way. I can't say that I agree with everything, since I'm not educated that well on some of the points, but it sure comes from someone who has spent a lot of thought on the subject!
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061115134942AAqcMO2 |
Rose Dupre
AKA/Órelindë Tinehtelë
AKA/Polly Gamwich
Gordon's 60th Royal Americans
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - November 17 2006 : 6:41:22 PM
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| Some very interesting links "blueotter" and good luck with art school, although I'm sure you won't need it. ;) BTW - an excellent post. |
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Ridgerunner
Pathfinder
USA
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November 12 2006
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Posted - November 17 2006 : 9:03:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
...I am having a difficult time understanding how the Confederate flag could be considered to be a symbol of "freedom." I think there are many people who are the descendants of slaves who would find that statement to be quite hypocritical.
Ok...Here's something to think about:
(1) The Confederacy did not fight to keep slavery.
(2) Blacks were slaves under the "Sars & Stripes" at least 80 years
before the "Stars & Bars" was hoisted.
(3) After the War Between The States was ended Blacks were still
slaves in the non-Confederate states. |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
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Posted - November 17 2006 : 9:29:41 PM
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| Let's be honest, - the Civil War was fought to keep the union together. Now, having made that point, - the reason it was about to come apart in the first place was "free states vs slave states". The rest about where salves were located is a tad mute, - not many took the underground railroad south to improve their living conditions. |
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richfed
Sachem
USA
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Posted - November 18 2006 : 09:31:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ridgerunner
quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
...I am having a difficult time understanding how the Confederate flag could be considered to be a symbol of "freedom." I think there are many people who are the descendants of slaves who would find that statement to be quite hypocritical.
Ok...Here's something to think about:
(1) The Confederacy did not fight to keep slavery.
(2) Blacks were slaves under the "Sars & Stripes" at least 80 years
before the "Stars & Bars" was hoisted.
(3) After the War Between The States was ended Blacks were still
slaves in the non-Confederate states.
Ah HA! RidgeRunner, you hit the nail on the head! There were slaves under the AMERICAN Flag, as you say. Should we thus refuse to fly it? No. Of course not! If a group - any group - chooses to march with the American Flag flying today - and we do not approve of their message, should we ban the American Flag? Of course not.
The Confederate Flag - to me, a born & bred Northerner - represents a part of the American people who fought [and many died] for their homeland. It is a part of our nationwide heritage.
As the Constitution was drafted & debated ... one huge issue was unfortunately left unresolved. The issue of States Rights VS Federal Power. Oddly enough, I figure in this day & age, most would agree with the Confederacy ... the Federal Government should have less power.
It just wasn't about slavery - which I firmly believe would have disappeared with or without that war. Most Southern soldiers were not slave owners; most Northern soldiers were not offering up their lives to free slaves. It was all about the right of one State to do what was right for the people within that state - despite what Washington said. It then became a struggle to defend the homeland or preserve the Union - depending on what side you were on. When political expediency came into play, so did the slavery issue.
To paraphrase Lincoln, "If freeing all the slaves would preserve the Union, I would free all the slaves. If freeing some of the slaves would preserve the Union, I would free some of the slaves. If freeing none the slaves would preserve the Union, I would free none the slaves."
I believe that flag should be flown anywhere folks are proud of it. Personally, I don't look at it & think, "Damned rascists!!!" I feel pride that my fellow Americans put their lives on the line for what they believed in. Their homeland. |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - November 18 2006 : 10:43:54 AM
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The problem with that particular flag is that it has been hijacked by groups with a racist agenda, beginning with the 1960's. Nothing irritates me more than to see a band of neo-nazi's and skinheads flying that flag. And to see it used by bikers and even as do-rags. Would anyone use the American flag as a do-rag? Well, I guess some actually do. A neighbor of mine used to fly a "stainless" flag in his front yard, and he was concerned that a black man who worked for him might find it offensive, so he asked his opinion. The black man was curious that he was concerned and said it meant nothing to him one way or the other. I found this to be true of most of the black people I know. It's just not one of the things they care about. It seems that only those with some sort of racist agenda, whether black, white, or the color of your choice, will see the flag as some sort of racist symbol. So a lot of Southerners who find THAT offensive, now fly one of the other flags, like the "Stars and Bars" instead. Incidentally, when South Carolina finally did remove the flag from the top of the State House, they placed a flag on a pole located in front of the entrance to the building and changed it to an accurate battle flag. When Georgia removed the St. Andrews cross from their state flag, they replaced it with a flag very similar to the flag flown over the State House during the war.
If only the French had won the F&I!!! |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - November 18 2006 : 2:08:57 PM
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No MG, I haven't skipped town... still very much around, just quiet.
Rich, I agree with you completely that the Civil War was not about slavery. It was about keeping the United States of America together. And in that, it was successful. And I do respect the fact that people -- men -- who fought on the Confederate side were fighting for their homeland and for their particular beliefs. I respect that highly. After all, my Patriot ancestors did the very same thing during the Revolution.
But no matter which side of the fence any of us are on, the fact remains that the Confederacy lost the war. The Union was preserved. We do not fly the British flag in America because the British lost the Revolution and the British flag is not our National flag. So I feel that we should not fly the Confederate flag either, because the Confederacy lost that war, and the Confederate flag is not our National flag.
Now, you all will recall that I did say in my post above that I thought it should be "retired with Honors." By that I mean that it should still be respected and revered, and should be displayed in museums, and even in private homes, much as people of Italian descent display the Italian flag in their homes -- or the Irish, or whomever. I just don't think it should be flown or hung in any sort of official capacity on any public building or property. And it certainly should not be used for or considered to be a racist symbol.
We are all Americans. (Not French, Fitz!  ) Let's fly, and be proud of, the proper flag: the Stars and Stripes.
(P.S. I still love ya, Rich!  ) |
"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - November 18 2006 : 6:46:32 PM
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Sort of reminds me of a story about a man of Welsh descent who decided to fly a Welch flag in his yard. It is the flag that looks like this:
Well, when he went to church next Sunday, the sermon was about the family of devil-worshipers who moved in down the street and flew the flag of Satan. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
USA
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Posted - November 18 2006 : 7:18:27 PM
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| Good thread all the way. Hate to say I didn't know the Welch had a flag, - one handsome SOB I must say. ... ;) |
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blueotter
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - November 19 2006 : 6:26:42 PM
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| The dragon represents the house of Pendragon, which was King Arthur's Lineage... Camelot is supposed to have existed in or near what is now Wales. It all makes sense. My grandmother's maiden name was Evans, which is a damn fine Welsh name — used to be that Welsh surnames changed every generation, since it was the tradition for offspring to take their father's first name and add an S to fashion their surname, such as Jones (aka Johns), Richards, etc. Evan is the Welsh Gaelic version of John, so there you have it. Somewhere in the more recent past, Britain decided that Welsh people needed to keep their names the same. It was getting too hard to keep track of the citizens when their names kept changing each generation! Just a little bit o' trivia. |
Rose Dupre
AKA/Órelindë Tinehtelë
AKA/Polly Gamwich
Gordon's 60th Royal Americans
Detroit French Marines |
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Monadnock Guide
Council of Elders
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Posted - November 19 2006 : 7:44:01 PM
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| Well, certainly some interesting information bluotter, thank you. Being of Irish ancestory (both sides) and having an English surnmae solely because of their "occupation" of Ireland - I understand Britian may have infulenced your history - just a tad. ;) |
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Bill R
Colonial Militia
USA
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Posted - January 05 2007 : 01:08:48 AM
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To me, it's simple. If Americans died under a flag, it deserves respect. Nearly ALL who died under that flag were NOT slave holders. Kinda common sense then that they were NOT fighting to for slavery then. They were invaded in an attempt to rewrite the Constitution into something it never was meant to be - "once in, never out no matter WHAT the government does to you." They fought for the right to self determination as the sovereign states they were. As somebody else stated, Lincoln emancipated ONLY slaves in the southern states. Slave owners were allowed to keep their slaves as property in the northern states. I believe, frankly, the NAACP is running out of causes so created an emotional one to keep the donations rolling in. What kind of free society do we live in if high school students are suspended or expelled for having history on their backpacks and for no other reason? Eh? It's the same mentality as is trying to get the bible outlawed as a hate document in some quarters.
There are much more important, and threatening, things going on in this country than THAT ridiculous issue. ALL of the rights abuses and losses of freedom occurring in this country since 1865 have occurred under the stars and stripes. We have done some good things, and the American people as a group (excluding the power mongers and politicians) are good, honest, fair people. Well, the same can be said of those who stood behind the Confederate flag too. They were ALSO Americans. My opinion. |
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Dancer
Pioneer
USA
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Posted - January 06 2007 : 4:01:01 PM
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Hmmm. When I see that flag I see aggravation. The flag is not a racist object to me but because it has been affiliated with random racist groups African Americans have taken offense to it. My opinion on that....ignore it. Learn your history before you take offense to ANYTHING. I don't care if it is a flag or any other inanimate object. What really ruffled my feathers was when an african american activist group made such a big deal about the Georgia flag having the "confederate flag" on it and in turn had the GA state flag altered. So much for embracing history and learning from it.
Four years ago I drove home from work (here in GA) and was appalled to see an african american activist group holding up signs with the confederate flag painted on it and screaming as loud as possible "Abolish Racism". I heard a man in a truck behind me arguing with the group in defense to his confederate flag sticker on his back glass. Needless to say it was a confrontation that nearly turned violent when he got out if his truck and tore their signs up. I have to admit I felt angered when the group accused all southerners of being racist. My ancestors on my father's side were confederate so it somewhat hit home.
My final thought on the flag is this. The flag did not put african americans into slavery...their own people did....if you want to hit the issue at the source..confront Africa for selling their people into slavery. Human sales have happened in other countries as well but you hardly ever hear about it....why are we still under attack after all these years? GET OVER IT!!!!!!!! Embrace history and be proud that America has learned from its' past. There will always be breeders of racism and that will never go away. I pity racist people and the children that will be raised with the hatred but I refuse to feel ashamed of anything my ancestors may or may not have done.
I intend no offense to anyone....I merely state my opinion with absolute honesty. |
"I teach the dance...the passion is yours to find." |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - January 06 2007 : 5:25:57 PM
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On the subject of the GA state flag, the new one is nothing more than the first Confederate national flag, with 13 stars instead of seven, and and emblem in the middle of the circle.
It's actually closer to a true Confederate flag than the one they took down. I guess the protestors are too stupid to realize it. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Dancer
Pioneer
USA
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Posted - January 06 2007 : 6:19:34 PM
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| I think those protestors are not stupid, they are just ignorant to the truth. They want to make a spectacle of themselves and hope that people will listen and say "Oh yeah, you are so right" yeah...not gonna happen. The louder you are, the more stupid you look in my opinion. I don't owe you anything neither does our government today. Suck it up, accept America for the way it is today and not for the mistakes it made and get on with your life. It seems like such a waste to spend all of your energy complaining about the suffering of an ANCESTOR and expect compensation for it! I'm sorry last time I checked America is equal opprotunity for everyone, now if a person today was mistreated the way their ancestors were than by all means I say repair the damage but when it was your ancestor you are seeking compensation for I simple shake my head and walk away. |
"I teach the dance...the passion is yours to find." |
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