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ssweetiess
Lost in the Wilderness
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 Posted - February 23 2005 : 3:09:57 PM
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I keep reading over and over in posts that say there is no way of telling how alice feels..well I have been watching the movie the oast few days to catch this stuff and have caught three ways of knowing.
#1 when Uncas chases the horses away and she yells at him and he grabs her they both stand there for a minute and I dont think she is looking at him out of fear I think she is somehow mesmerized by him..Cora has to pull her away. They stand there for at least thirty seconds staring into each other.
#2 Under the falls Alice hold onto Uncas very tightly..she embraces him.
#3 At the cliffs when she first sees Uncas come she tries to get free to get to him and than when he gets slashed its like they look at each other and its almost their eyes are telling each other how they feel..and when she looks at Magua its like she is telling him that her destiny is with Uncas in death not with him.
There are more and i think if the love scene were put in it would have been a lot more clear..u just really have to study the movie..I am gonna go watch it again see if there is anything else i can find..but read the script and its obvious how much Alice loves Uncas..I just dont think she realized how deeply until the cliffs scene..thats when she realized her place was with Uncas..she definently didnt die out of fear.
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mountainheart
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Posted - February 23 2005 : 4:17:50 PM
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| Very observant!!!!! I agree wholeheartedly. It amazes me how many people "watch" movies without "observing." |
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Rainhair
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Posted - February 23 2005 : 6:29:06 PM
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*claps* Well said!  Whenever scenes with Alice and Uncas show, I always pay extra attention. XD
My favorite part with them if when he holds her under the falls and she hangs on to him. Kinda sad.  |
The leaves were long
The grass was green
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars and shadow shimmering |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 24 2005 : 10:23:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rainhair
My favorite part with them if when he holds her under the falls and she hangs on to him.
Well, I would hold on for dear life, too, if someone were holding me under the falls. Drowning isn't fun.
[Sorry. I just couldn't resist...]
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Redbird
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Posted - February 24 2005 : 11:12:00 AM
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| Lol I'm afraid I would have held on to Uncas pretty tightly - whether I was in danger or *not* (any excuse)!! But I think everyone is pretty well on track with this take on their relationship. So much of it is implied: but it still is very much there for the viewer. Rainhair (great name!), isn't your quote from "The Ley of Luthien", Tolkien's story of Beren and Luthien? It just struck me that it pretty well conjures up visions of the New World forests in LOTM too. |
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - February 24 2005 : 12:59:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mountainheart
It amazes me how many people "watch" movies without "observing."
Oh, I think we all "observe." We just process the information we are observing differently.
Sorry, my friends. You will never convince me that Alice was in love with Uncas.
[WW covers her head with her arms to protect her hair from the rotten tomatoes that would probably stain it, and runs to duck behind a tree.] |
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Stephanie
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Posted - February 24 2005 : 2:37:47 PM
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Good point, WW. Remember she is upper-middle class European, and refers to them as "the red man." Would someone of her station have viewed a Native American as a possible romantic interest? Doubtful, but possible. Certainly we can assume that her view of these people changed based on her experiences with them, but I think in reality "romance" would have been unlikely. It seems that nowadays people boast about having Indian blood in their family trees, but remember that as recently as the early 20th century, this was not something people bragged about. It has been my experience in genealogical research that when someone brought an Indian into the family, great efforts were made to conceal that person's heritage. That makes tracing histories for us very difficult, but it seems to have been pretty common. So, for Alice to consider Uncas as a romantic possibility would have been shocking and, to me, unlikely.
JMHO,
Stephanie <-----ducking and running for cover with WW! |
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Redbird
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Posted - February 24 2005 : 3:12:06 PM
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Okay, WW.. I will admit that I *am* a hopeless romantic - but that being said, I think the relationship between Uncas and Alice *was* a romantic one; even if it wasn't verbalized, and we never get to see the romantic (sexual) part of it acted out in the movie. I guess it does depend so much on, as you said, how the information is processed (or by whom).
I can't help but identify with Alice and Cora in the story, as far as their new experiences in the colonies and the wilderness. Both these women/girls had to be dealing with a *lot* of culture shock, finding themselves in the position that they end up in. And, of course, we see that their personal reactions are very different. I think as long as there was the illusion that their own British/European order of things was preserved, they were alright: but as soon as they enter the forest(wilderness), everything is new - and the world gets turned upside down.
I know you've probably studied as much of some of the historical accounts of frontier fighting (one person's "battle" often becomes another's "massacre") as I have. That initial "run in" they have with Magua and the Hurons would be enough to send me into a pretty fair state of shock, and I think that's what happened to Alice. Uncas shows up at this critical juncture, saves her, and is the perfect example of a warrior who is also honorable and gentle. And who, we all agree is very... well, as we used to say in my day - "tasty". If I were Alice, my attention would become very focused on this man: and in certain scenes in the movie, I think MM does a good job of showing that.
Throughout the film, when Alice is in crisis - Uncas is there. He becomes her protector in this frightening, new reality. I don't think it's anything that's been actually thought out on her part (until perhaps for that moment of awful clarity on the cliffs): but I believe that Alice had in fact fallen in love with Uncas *throughout* the unfolding of the incredible experiences we see them share in the movie. Of course, I am filtering this through the lense of my own perception, and it is often a romantic one...
No flying produce of any sort is headed your way, from me! I commend your bravery in bringing up this point in an environment where it is bound to cause a little trouble (enamored as so many of us seem to be of the notion that Uncas and Alice are the quintessential star crossed lovers!) And to think; in Cooper's version, it was Uncas and Cora!? ;-) |
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Redbird
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Posted - February 24 2005 : 5:15:25 PM
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Stephanie;
You do bring up some good points for "the opposition"! However, I still think that there were sufficient mitigating circomestances that would have made it quite possible for Alice to feel this way about Uncas, especially as things are portrayed in the film. There *is* a wide gulf between her experience as an "upper middle class European" and Uncas's as an American Indian. But there are also the common militaristic/warrior subthemes that run through both cultures too. I think on some instinctive or unconcious basis, Alice understands the similarities between the seemingly disparate world views. She recognizes honor and self sacrifice when she sees it, even if it is a "red man" who exhibits those traits. And in reality, Uncas wouldn't have been all that much darker than some of the Celts in her own Scottish homeland. I think any "unsuitability" about him on Alice's part would evaporate pretty quickly after he's saved her life the first couple times, and even more so after she loses the protection of her father. She's thrown into a whole other world, or reality: and he's the one constant protector (besides Cora) that she has. I don't know if it would have been something she would have had time to think about while everything else was happening; but as you know, it's pretty "iffy" on whether she would have been accepted back into white Anglo/European society, after being an Indian captive. I like to think this would have been a moot point, had they both lived; and that Alice would end up with Uncas because love has it's own ways - but that would be the romantic in me for sure!
You mentioned doing geneology, in regards to Native American ancestry? Could I ask you some questions about it sometime? I hadn't been able to get back to Mohicanland for a while. I posted something in the F&I War forum under "Mahegan(sp?), Mohican, Delaware" topic but haven't heard anything back from there.
Sending you a virtual umbrella, so you and WW can protect yourselves while you're dodging those tomatoes!:-o |
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AliceH
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Posted - February 24 2005 : 5:53:21 PM
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I have been reading this topic and feel Alice and Uncas were in "love", but wanted to share the following from the screenplay. I'm new to this website and since most of you have been here since 1992, please be patient. I found the following scene that obviously wan't in the movie, but this is one "take" I guess MM, et al, had in mind at one point for Alice & Uncas (starting when they first got to the caves/waterfall). I'm also wondering if this is what ES was referring to when he said they filmed a scene between he and JM and since her Mother was on the set, she wouldn't allow them to use this:
UNCAS
immediately starts up the right acclivity to one fissure, and Chingachgook moves
carefully to the first fissure. Hawkeye follows.
HAWKEYE
His countenance gives way momentarily. All his experience seems of no avail. He
touches the side of Cora's face. Grabs Killdeer and follows Chingachgook.
ALICE
sensing new danger, slips away on her own.
CORA
crosses to the Ranger who's semi-conscious, feverish and getting delirious. She can't do
a thing except hold his hand and think of her father.
CUT TO ...
INTERIOR SOUTH FISSURE - HAWKEYE & CHINGACHGOOK
below the edge, listen & wait, testing the environment with all their senses ...
NORTH FISSURE - UNCAS
against one wall, has his ear cocked, monitoring, facing away from the sky ...
ALICE
looks at the sky through the fissure. She sees the starfields and feels silver moonlight
pull her forward. She starts out onto the island, oblivious, unaware she'll expose them.
Suddenly ...
UNCAS
yanks her down next to him. He pulls her head into his chest, looking out over the
edge, his tomahawk in front of him, his musket near his right hand. There is no sign she
was seen.
UNCAS & ALICE
He relaxes, looks at her and puts his finger to his lips telling her to be silent.
Languorously, she lies back, closes her eyes and lays a hand on his shoulder, palm up,
as if he were a prince in a romantic fantasy. Uncas tries to restrain her.
ALICE'S
eyes slowly open. Oblivion disappears. It's replaced with escalating fear. She holds onto
Uncas with desperation. Her fingers claw his shoulders. She buries her face in his
chest.
ALICE
Uncas ...
Her body shudders. Her terror's total. He tries to restrain and calm her. She won't let
him. Then her mouth seeks his and in the passion of despair and fear and wanting life,
she holds him between her thighs. And Uncas is confused, but Alice whispers his name
and he responds. He loves her in the half-light.
UNCAS
his hand buried in her hair irradiated by the moon, then she seems to reach some
emotional climax and begins to cry softly, and Uncas stops making love to her and
holds her. Then she's flooded with shame. He reaches for her. She jerks away. He
reaches for her again and clutches her to him. And she breaks down. Then he turns her
face to him, but her expression has completely flattened.
WIDER ANGLE
She's not a lover to Uncas now. She's pitiful & stricken and he comforts her.
CUT TO ...
EXTERIOR RIVER - MAGUA - NIGHT
beaches a canoe on the bank. He and eight braves ease out. His war paint is fresh:
green handprints on his chest and black and green on his face. Black plumes are affixed
to his scalp-lock and his shawl is over his left shoulder. The right arm carrying his
musket is exposed. Many scalps are tied to his tomahawk. He walks towards us
approaching the island, two hundred yards away ...
CUT TO ...
INTERIOR SOUTH FISSURE - HAWKEYE - NIGHT
checks his powder horn. Nearly empty. He looks at Chingachgook.
CUT TO ...
INTERIOR GLEN FALLS ISLAND, CAVE - CORA - NIGHT
with the Ranger, looks up. Hawkeye enters. The look on his face. Then hers. They've
been discovered. Now they're backed into a hole in the ground with no powder and no
way out |
Alice H |
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Redbird
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Posted - February 25 2005 : 12:36:10 PM
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| Hi Alice! I still feel "new" to this site, because there is so much on it and many of the folks do already know each other. I pretty much just lurked for months, and am still learning how to navigate my way around. So I'm another person that hasn't been here since 1992 - I wish I'd found this place sooner! I think what you found (and I've seen it elsewhere on this site) is evidence that Michael Mann wanted us to *assume* a relationship between Alice and Uncas, even if he didn't show the "missing" sequence from the script. I really doubt it was filmed the way it's written, given what I've learned about JM's mother's feelings and the fact that Jodhi was so young at the time. I do think this is evidence that MM wants us to think of Alice and Uncas as would be lovers in the film, even though the original story and *some skeptics* ;-) might say otherwise. Now, I'm looking for *my* virtual umbrella, and taking off for cover... |
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AliceH
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Posted - February 25 2005 : 1:47:27 PM
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| Redbird - I totally agree with everything you said. Also, I wish I had known about this site long ago. I have always had LOTM as my number 1 favorite movie, and it's so good to know there are others out there that feel as I do. The Alice/Uncas relationship will always be a "debate" I'm sure, but that's probably what MM wanted - to leave that part in question. Too bad we probably won't ever see those scenes. I think I read where someone is getting a petition together requesting deleted scenes be made public - if MM doesn't want to go that route, it sure would be nice if he would let us "Mohican true-blue fans" get to have them. Oh well . . . I guess I can always dream! Thanks for your reply! |
Alice H |
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Rainhair
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Posted - February 25 2005 : 10:51:03 PM
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Well, everyone has their own opinons. I think it's better that way, or life would be boring.
Anyways, it is, in truth, hard to tell whether they would've ended up together, so I guess that part's left to all our imaginations. |
The leaves were long
The grass was green
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars and shadow shimmering |
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UncasLover13
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Posted - March 09 2005 : 7:46:00 PM
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| I totally agree with you Ssweeties! Everything u said is how I always have felt and I have noticed all of those things as well. I totally think that they were in love..and no on will veer change my mind. :) |
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silentthunder
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Posted - March 11 2005 : 02:28:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AliceH
ALICE'S
eyes slowly open. Oblivion disappears. It's replaced with escalating fear. She holds onto
Uncas with desperation. Her fingers claw his shoulders. She buries her face in his
chest.
ALICE
Uncas ...
Her body shudders. Her terror's total. He tries to restrain and calm her. She won't let
him. Then her mouth seeks his and in the passion of despair and fear and wanting life,
she holds him between her thighs. And Uncas is confused, but Alice whispers his name
and he responds. He loves her in the half-light.
UNCAS
his hand buried in her hair irradiated by the moon, then she seems to reach some
emotional climax and begins to cry softly, and Uncas stops making love to her and
holds her.
WOW!!  THAT'S SOME HOT STUFF...... EXACTLY WHAT THE MOVIE NEEDED....  |
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Light of the Moon
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Posted - March 12 2005 : 3:55:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Redbird
Lol I'm afraid I would have held on to Uncas pretty tightly - whether I was in danger or *not* (any excuse)!! But I think everyone is pretty well on track with this take on their relationship. So much of it is implied: but it still is very much there for the viewer. Rainhair (great name!), isn't your quote from "The Ley of Luthien", Tolkien's story of Beren and Luthien? It just struck me that it pretty well conjures up visions of the New World forests in LOTM too.
That's the truth! |
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silentthunder
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Posted - March 12 2005 : 8:32:29 PM
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I wish I could say that MM put enough evidence in the movie to convince me that Alice was in love with Uncas, but honestly I don't think that she was. I do believe Uncas was in love with Alice, and this is why he died trying to save her.
On the other hand, if I was Alice there is no doubt about it, I would have fallen in love with Uncas as soon as I saw that beautiful man before me. *Love at first sight*  Also, if I were Alice I would have taken advantage of the "private time" they had alone under the falls and had my way with him. It wouldn't have mattered if she was European and he was a Red-Man (green, orange, blue)  , I wouldn't have cared. The truth is that the man had it going on, and there is no way I would have skipped a change at having that delicious hunk of man.
I know I'm not the only one who has imagined this, right ladies??
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eilan
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 Posted - March 17 2005 : 12:01:30 PM
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There are no doubt about Alice's love for Uncas...I'm sorry but that's a FACT! if you read the original script at cliff's scene it appears clearly:
"Alice looks down at Uncas, HER LOVER, dead on the rocks below. She turns to Magua. Her eyes seems to see into him. she ignores Magua. She steps off the edge, She falls to her death next to Uncas..." |
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silentthunder
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Posted - March 18 2005 : 12:18:28 AM
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What you consider to be a fact, might not be perceived the same by others. As mentioned previously, MM did not convince me in the movie, that Alice was in love with Uncas. I'm not going by a script, I'm going by what MM put out there for viewers to see. 
The wonderful thing about this website is that everyone is "entitled" to their own personal opinion. I stand by mine!! 
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Wilderness Woman
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Posted - March 18 2005 : 12:24:45 PM
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...and I agree with you completely!
As I have said many times now, In The Movie, I saw nothing that would convince me that Alice was in love with Uncas. He was in love with her, yes. But In The Movie... she did not return that love.
In the final scenes, she looked at Uncas as someone who could possibly save her. When he died, she slipped into total despair because she felt there was no way she could be saved at that point. |
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silentthunder
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Posted - March 18 2005 : 6:58:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Wilderness Woman
...and I agree with you completely!
As I have said many times now, In The Movie, I saw nothing that would convince me that Alice was in love with Uncas. He was in love with her, yes. But In The Movie... she did not return that love.
In the final scenes, she looked at Uncas as someone who could possibly save her. When he died, she slipped into total despair because she felt there was no way she could be saved at that point.
WW, I agree with you 100%.  I couldn't have said it better myself. It's good to know I'm not the only one who felt this way about the Uncas/Alice story. |
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eilan
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 Posted - March 19 2005 : 2:40:03 PM
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I don't absolutely agree!!! Alice WAS in love with Uncas!!! The script clearly says "HER LOVER"...do you know the mean of these 2 words???? It means SHE LOVED HIM!!!! Is not difficult to understand! I'M AND ALWAYS BE A FAN OF UNCAS AND ALICE!!!! |
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misschanelno5
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Posted - March 19 2005 : 7:44:54 PM
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quote:
Alice WAS in love with Uncas!!!The script clearly says "HER LOVER"...do you know the mean of these 2 words???? It means SHE LOVED HIM!!!! Is not difficult to understand!
It's more complicated for the compilers of Miriam-Webster .. they came up with no fewer than four definitions for the word lover:
1 a : a person in love; especially : a man in love with a woman
b plural : two persons in love with each other
2 : an affectionate or benevolent friend
3 : DEVOTEE
4 a : PARAMOUR b : a person with whom one has sexual relations
The word has a history, too ... in the eighteenth-century fiction class I'm currently taking, many of the texts (Moll Flanders, Pamela, etc.) feature the word "lover" in the context of anyone interested in pursuing a courtship. No matter what "lover" means then or now, I think the use of the word "her" says a lot too, and supports Wilderness Woman's point that Alice was not necessarily in any position to return love.
Personally, I agree with Wilderness Woman ... I might even go further and say that neither Uncas and Alice could have been in love, per se, because they barely knew each other. Maybe it could be better characterized as "in lust".
That said -- Uncas and Alice are my favorite romantic relationship in the film; for some reason, they're just more intriguing to me! On that subject, Cora and Hawkeye is a better sell for me in the "in love" category, since they disparage one another in the beginning, bicker, and have the same hair ... all great foundations for a love match!  |
"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination."
"Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing."
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silentthunder
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Posted - March 20 2005 : 03:38:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by eilan
I don't absolutely agree!!! Alice WAS in love with Uncas!!!The script clearly says "HER LOVER"...do you know the mean of these 2 words????
Can You Read the above reply, in which misschanelno5 was kind enough to take the time and write the definitions for you. 
Thanks so much for the information misschanelno5.
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Lurking Huron6217
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Posted - March 25 2005 : 11:32:40 PM
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I was just on another thread debating the U-A romance. I, too, read the script re U-A under the waterfall. I think their "moment" together was a result of their desperation.....Magua is intent on killing them; Alice clearly is not able to cope with the situation and is about to give their location away. When Uncas "pulls her close to him" (or whatever), it's simply out of preservation for them all. Alice, in turn, is just losing it (not that getting chummy with Uncas is losing it) but she's just not coping and she "escapes" in his arms. When she goes over the cliffs, it's not because she was in love with Uncas and would rather be with him, I think she didn't want to be Magua's slave (you know he would have put her through hell--mentally and physically). Because she was so "fragile", she didn't think far enough ahead to realize that if Uncas was there, Chingosgook (ok, that's spelled wrong!), Hawkeye and Cora couldn't be far behind. But after Uncas was defeated, she panicked and, chose a quick death at the cliff rather than a long one with Magua.
The scene with the horses---Uncas was looking at her because he couldn't believe she was so emotional about the horses. At the burial ground, he pulled her close to him to stop her from bobbing around and giving away their position.
I can't see any indication of a romance between the two. |
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Lurking Huron1442
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Posted - March 26 2005 : 01:26:09 AM
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| Finally, - the real answer appears. Thanks LH 6217, it's the lesser of two evils, life as a slave or a quick drop. |
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Alice looks towrds Uncas
