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Scott Bubar
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Posted - July 07 2002 :  10:35:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A question for you F & I warriors out there:

In his April 2001 National Rifleman article, "The Redcoat's Brown Bess", George Neumann states:

"The British infantry was already leaning toward a shorter arm. (Many 4" sections of sawed-off Long Land barrels have been excavated from French and Indian War sites.)"

I certainly don't doubt Mr. Neumann, but no references are provided, at least in the online version which is all I have available.

Anyone know how many is "many", or which sites these might be?

How much difference in handling would 4" actually have made to make it worth doing the alterations, and why did they stop there?





~~Aim small, miss small.
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Fitz Williams
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Posted - July 07 2002 :  11:08:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
If you saw off 4", then you lose the locking tang for the bayonet, plus the bayonet cannot be fitted bacause the stock is too long. So next you must saw off the stock, and then you lose the front thimble for the ramrod. Seems like a lot of trouble for 4". Did they replace the bayonet tang? (retorical question) Did they go to a plug bayonet? Why bother in the first place. I don't doubt Newman, it just makes me wonder.

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Scott Bubar
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Posted - July 09 2002 :  06:58:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
"A lot of trouble" indeed!

That's why I'd like to pin down the motivation.

The British, in spite of their reputation for stodginess, actually did quite a bit of adapting and experimentation in this war.

~~Aim small, miss small.
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Scott Bubar
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Posted - July 19 2002 :  9:08:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
OK, I came across the following quite coincidentally while looking for info on 18th century undergarments:

quote:
There are records of payments on March 14 and November 24, 1759, to blacksmiths ". . . for cutting short the arms of the 42nd Regiment, by General Abercrombie's order, June 9, 1758."5 This probably reduced the barrel length to forty-two inches.


From: http://www.military-historians.org/Plates/42ndhighlanders.htm

Now I know there are some kilted, Black Watch-ish sort of folks out there in the audience.

You know who you are.

You gotta be having some thoughts about this.

So 'fess up.



~~Aim small, miss small.
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Seamus
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Posted - July 22 2002 :  9:00:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit Seamus's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
The shorter length made the use of the 1st Model much easier in the woods and forests of North America, where they Black Watch fought....namely the Lake George/Champlain Valleys. Four inches does, indeed, make a big difference when rasslin' one of these beasts around in the woods....I know from experience....a proper 1st model IS a beast! The bayonet lug is simply soft soldered on to begin with, and so was easily removed by applying some heat and resoldered on the shortened musket. It is quite a simple operation and can be done rather quicky (less than half an hour to an experienced 'smith) if the proper saws, files, bit pads, vices, reamers, clamps and solder are available...which they certainly were in the Armorer's chest and wagons (as well as my shop!).

Seamus

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Scott Bubar
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Posted - July 23 2002 :  07:14:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Thanks, Seamus. Nothing like the voice of experience.

Does the operation significantly lighten the piece?

How does it affect handling--i.e. balance, pointing speed and so forth?

Any thoughts on why they stopped at four inches?


quote:

The shorter length made the use of the 1st Model much easier in the woods and forests of North America, where they Black Watch fought....namely the Lake George/Champlain Valleys. Four inches does, indeed, make a big difference when rasslin' one of these beasts around in the woods....I know from experience....a proper 1st model IS a beast! The bayonet lug is simply soft soldered on to begin with, and so was easily removed by applying some heat and resoldered on the shortened musket. It is quite a simple operation and can be done rather quicky (less than half an hour to an experienced 'smith) if the proper saws, files, bit pads, vices, reamers, clamps and solder are available...which they certainly were in the Armorer's chest and wagons (as well as my shop!).

Seamus





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Seamus
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Posted - July 23 2002 :  07:32:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Seamus's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
No, it does not reduce weight a whole lot, but even a pound is a lot when you carry one all day. The handling was made somewhat easier in the woods, pointing speed was improved, and there was no discernible effect on accuracy (Haha! We are talking a sloppy fit smoothbore here!!).

Can't answer why they stopped at 4 inches....yet...but I am working on it.....might have something to do with combustion and efficiency of the charge. Stay tuned.

Seamus

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Fitz Williams
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Posted - July 23 2002 :  1:36:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
For Napoleon forty years later, the primary function of the musket was to mount a bayonet. You destroyed formations with artillery, then you closed with the bayonet. Even through the Civil War, the musket retained its length and the bayonet its function. It was only when fire power had reached the point that it could destroy an attacking formation before it reached its objective that the weapons became shorter. Even in WWI the frontal assualt with the bayonet was still considered the proper method of attack. The shorter weapons were for special purpose. The officer's fusil would probably not be used by the officer very much, the carbine was a secondary weapon for the cavalry, and the trade gun was not designed to be a military weapon.

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Posted - July 23 2002 :  4:00:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit Seamus's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Scott,

OK...here is the answer for the question as to why they didn't remove more than 4 inches.......and it has nothing to do with efficiency of the load. It was done for easier woodland handling.....period.

The top barrel hanger on 1st Model Besses (original and high quality, correctly done, modern-made guns)has a double loop which sandwiches the hanger on the first ramrod pipe, and they are then secured by a single pin. It is a royal pain in the A** to dismount the barrel hanger, remount it, and refit the ramrod pipe, as well as shorten the forestock and rammer. It is a MAJOR operation, and very time consuming.

Therefore, to shorten 4 inches is a cinch! As I said earlier, the bayonet lug was easily unsoldered and resoldered on the shortened barrel. Many of these discarded sections have been excavated on Rogers' Island, in the river at Fort Edward, south of William Henry. This was an operation that could be done in about 15 minutes by a skilled armorer, whereas the other would take about an hour to accomplish.

Hope this answers your question.

Seamus



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Scott Bubar
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Posted - July 23 2002 :  8:27:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Thanks again, Seamus. That makes a lot of sense.

Once you take off the 4 inches, wouldn't you still need to shorten the stock a bit to allow the fitting of the bayonet?

One of the thoughts I had on why they were left relatively long is that the musket served as a polearm as well as a firearm, and they may have been reluctant to reduce it's length too much on that basis.



quote:

Scott,

OK...here is the answer for the question as to why they didn't remove more than 4 inches.......and it has nothing to do with efficiency of the load. It was done for easier woodland handling.....period.

The top barrel hanger on 1st Model Besses (original and high quality, correctly done, modern-made guns)has a double loop which sandwiches the hanger on the first ramrod pipe, and they are then secured by a single pin. It is a royal pain in the A** to dismount the barrel hanger, remount it, and refit the ramrod pipe, as well as shorten the forestock and rammer. It is a MAJOR operation, and very time consuming.

Therefore, to shorten 4 inches is a cinch! As I said earlier, the bayonet lug was easily unsoldered and resoldered on the shortened barrel. Many of these discarded sections have been excavated on Rogers' Island, in the river at Fort Edward, south of William Henry. This was an operation that could be done in about 15 minutes by a skilled armorer, whereas the other would take about an hour to accomplish.

Hope this answers your question.

Seamus







~~Aim small, miss small.
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Seamus
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Posted - July 23 2002 :  9:12:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Seamus's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Shortening the forestock is a simple saw-it-off job, then file the reduction to allow the bayonet down all the way. There is no nosecap on a 1st Model.

I believe they were so long as a matter of form and style. The 1st Models were made basically from about 1710 (don't hold me to that, I don't have my book in front of me!) and the style back then was very long barrels. I am sure, however, as a military musket it was built quite stout because it was, indeed, used as a club, a spear, a polearm, too, and it would need to be able to stand some abnormal use and abuse.

Clubbing an opponent in the head with the butt of a musket of the period would crush a skull like an egg. It is a horrible thing to see the damage one causes. When we indoctrinate new members of our Regiment, we have a course on the uses and abuses of the Brown Bess Musket. We fire blank charges at cardboard boxes close in to show that powder is as deadly or damaging as a lead ball up close. We fire live loads--ball AND buck and ball at various objects (melons, water filled gallon jugs, etc.)to show the destructive capabilities of the weapon. We run bayonet drills with dummies. These, by the way, are fantastic tension/stress relievers! We buttstroke and buttsmash dummies and/or roadkilled deer if we can get one to show that these things will hurt someone if someone gets too caught up in the heat of battle(Which is why we have rules about no hand to hand contact in a tactical).

One can only imagine the damage they caused in a battle of the 18th century!

These are very real firearms, and as such, deserve the respect and consideration any firearm should get. We watch like hawks on the field and off the field for safety or common sense violations. We want no one hurt. Ever.

Seamus

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Scott Bubar
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Posted - July 25 2002 :  5:32:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I appreciate your help on this, Seamus.

It's clarified things considerably.

As I said, there's no substitute for hands-on experience.

~~Aim small, miss small.
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Posted - July 26 2002 :  3:23:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I now remember...1983. I met with the late Mr. Earl Stott-owner of the southern portion of Rogers' Island. He brought out hundreds of artifacts from his digs 20 years before. Although I don't remember seeing the cut off musket barrels, I do remember the sundial compass that was the model of the reproduction compasses available today. Soon after acquiring the property, Earl and his son excavated (1960'61) a building site that was "evidently a shop" area. Whetstones, nails, nine varieties of axes, musket balls and casting sprues including perfectly round hard glaze balls for checking calber-true barrels were
found. I will quote from Earl's own words* "Perhaps the most interesting items taken from this armorer's or smith's site were the cut ends of musket barrels, ranging from 4, 6, and 8 inches in length. It was gratifying to find these artifacts substantiating historical documents which tell us that the rangers cut off 4, 6 then 8 inches of their musket barrels and shortened the stocks to make their arms lighter and easier to handle in the woods". * Exploring Rogers Island, first edition 1969. My copy was given to me by Earl and I will try to find out if any are avilable at this time. When I locate Earl's barrel artifacts I will try to get photos of them for you. I am also planning on a more extensive report of my meetings with Mr Stott in a "From The Ramparts" dispatch. Tim C.

Tim Cordell
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Scott Bubar
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Posted - July 27 2002 :  06:01:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I should note that prior to my starting this thread,someone had mentioned the Roger's Island finds to me, but without providing any particulars.

Thanks to the Federici's providing this site, I knew of Mr. Cordell from his works here, and it occurred to me we had a friend "on the ground" so to speak, so I contacted him just before I posted here, and he was very receptive to my questions. (I'm trying to get a fix on the "many" aspect.)

Thanks, Tim.

And thanks Rich & Lainey.

~~Aim small, miss small.
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Posted - October 21 2002 :  12:05:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit SgtMunro's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I do recall, in the Blackmore Book, that the cutting back of the barrel had more to due with errosion of the "crown" area, more than anything else.


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Posted - October 21 2002 :  10:01:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit Pvt. Chauncey's Homepage  Send Pvt. Chauncey an AOL message  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Greetings, Scott --

I'm coming to this VERY late but I want to second what Seamus said about a shorter musket (even 4") being much easier to handle in the woods. I have a two muskets. One is a 41.5" barrel (don't ask me why, it just came that way) and the other has been cut down to 31". I use the longer one for Rev War because it is second model (dated 1762). I have had the shorter one back-dated to be appropriate for a 1st model and thus and F&I musket.

I can tell you from experience that loading a musket lying down in the shrubbery is not easy. My arms aren't long enough to load the long musket lying down, and I'll bet I would have a lot of company with that problem 250 years ago. Also, running through the woods and getting into a position of ambush or whatever is much harder with the long musket. Finally, and this is a small but significant point, the "poise" for the F&I is one-handed and the extra weight and length of the long musket make it impossible for me to hold the longer musket steadily upright at the poise. So my little shorty is my best friend in the F&I.

FYI, I remember George Bray saying the sawed-off ends of muskets were found on Rogers' Island, and he (like Seamus) has done serious research on this topic.

Hope that helps.

YHOS,
Pvt. Chauncey

quote:
Originally posted by Fitz Williams:
If you saw off 4", then you lose the locking tang for the bayonet, plus the bayonet cannot be fitted bacause the stock is too long. So next you must saw off the stock, and then you lose the front thimble for the ramrod. Seems like a lot of trouble for 4". Did they replace the bayonet tang? (retorical question) Did they go to a plug bayonet? Why bother in the first place. I don't doubt Newman, it just makes me wonder.





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Posted - October 22 2002 :  02:12:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit SgtMunro's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Pte. Chauncey,
Your other firelock is cut back to a barrel length of 31 inches? Wow, that must be a joy to handle. Kinda like the M-4 Carbine of the 18th century. Do you have a picture of it, next to a standard 2nd model or a yardstick for comparison? If you do, could you e-mail it to me, my address is on my profile.

Your Humble Servant,


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Posted - October 22 2002 :  1:06:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit Pvt. Chauncey's Homepage  Send Pvt. Chauncey an AOL message  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Sgt. Monro,
It is a Pedersoli carbine. Clabert, that rascally French Trader, bought it straight from Pedersoli himself about 15 years ago -- the first of his carbines in the US! Clabert sold it to me in exchange for a 1st model that I did not want to mess with. He wanted a first model.

I don't have a picture of it alone or with the other musket, but I'll take one for you with my digital. Meanwhile, just to give you an idea of what it looks like (length-wise):

http://reenacting.net/pcg.html -- me with it on my back at the 2001 Gathering on the Top of the World

http://reenacting.net/ti2000.html -- me in the front line with my regular bess, and the guy behind me (white shirt) with my carbine

http://reenacting.net/snowshoes02.html -- this one shows you that we have several rangers with cut-down models

I'll email you a pic.

YHOS,
Pvt. Chauncey

quote:
Originally posted by SgtMunro:
Pte. Chauncey,
Your other firelock is cut back to a barrel length of 31 inches? Wow, that must be a joy to handle. Kinda like the M-4 Carbine of the 18th century. Do you have a picture of it, next to a standard 2nd model or a yardstick for comparison? If you do, could you e-mail it to me, my address is on my profile.

Your Humble Servant,


Sgt. Duncan Munro
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SgtMunro
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Posted - October 22 2002 :  2:46:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit SgtMunro's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Pvt. Chauncy,
Thanks for the links, and I look forward to the picture. Pederisoli must have done something different with their later 'Bess' Carbines though. My buddy, Rob M., from Cap.t Patricity's Co'y. of Roger's Rangers has one, and its barrel is 33". He was thinking of removing the 'sight' (or as we in the 21st century improperly call it, the bayonet lug), because of some documentation supporting that modification. Either way, Sgt. Bob swears by that firelock as the ultimate weapon for woodland warfare. I agree, I am somewhat impartial to my own L/I Carbine Bore Firelock when doing my company's Light Infantry impression.

Your Humble Servant,


Sgt. Duncan Munro
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Posted - October 22 2002 :  2:49:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit SgtMunro's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Please pardon the above typo, I meant to say 'partial'.

Thanks,


Sgt. Duncan Munro
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Posted - October 22 2002 :  3:06:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit SgtMunro's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
P.S.- I also got to check out your powder horn, very nice work.



Sgt. Duncan Munro
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Scott Bubar
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Posted - February 18 2003 :  8:40:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Cordell
... "Perhaps the most interesting items taken from this armorer's or smith's site were the cut ends of musket barrels, ranging from 4, 6, and 8 inches in length. It was gratifying to find these artifacts substantiating historical documents which tell us that the rangers cut off 4, 6 then 8 inches of their musket barrels and shortened the stocks to make their arms lighter and easier to handle in the woods". ...



Tim, if you should get back this way, it occurs to me that there are (at least) two different ways to interpret this.

If we assume they were starting out with 46" barreled Long Lands, then they may have been reducing the orginal by these amounts, perhaps getting more daring as they went along. So you'd end up with 42" ("Short Land" length), 40" and 38" barrels.

On the other hand, if you take the statement literally, they started by cutting of 4", then cut off another 6", then another 8", which would eventually give you a barrel length of 28"--a considerable difference.

Any idea what Shott had in mind as the substantiating documents?

~~Aim small, miss small.
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CT•Ranger
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Posted - March 30 2003 :  2:09:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
What caliber were these barrel segments? Without knowing the caliber I don't think we can assume these were all from British Long Land Service muskets. I recall it has been theorized by some that the Pronvicials may have been cutting down the barrels of much longer guns they brought with them upon enlistment, as an attempt toward uniformity among the Provincial companies. Remember it was not too uncommon for early 18th century firerams to reach 6 feet in length.

It seems a little odd to me that they would spend the time and effort to cut down British Long Land Service Muskets when there were other Short Land Patterns available at the time. In fact there were at least 3 versions of the Short Land Pattern (with 42" barrels) in use during the F&I War before the Short Land Service (New Pattern) musket, also known as the 2nd Model Brown Bess began production in 1769. These 3 versions of the Short Land Pattern were the Marine and Militia Musket, the Sea Service Musket, and the Short Land Pattern used by dragoons. It seems to me that if 42" barrels were so important to the rangers, then they could have been supplied with one of the 3 Short Land models available at the time. Just some theorizing and opinions of mine.

By the way, the 2nd Model Bess produced by Pedersoli and so popular with reenactors does not date to 1762-3 as many claim. This musket did not begin production until 1769. The reproduction has a lock with the date "Grice 1762", but this date only signifies the date the lock was assembled, not when the musket was put together. In 1764 the practice of putting the lock maker's name and date on the lock was abolished, and thereafter the lock was simply marked with "Tower" or in a few cases "Dublin Castle." So to be more accurate the Pedersoli 2nd Model Bess, more correctly called the Short Land Service (New Pattern), should have a lock simply marked with "Tower."

YMHS,
Connecticut•Ranger
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Posted - March 30 2003 :  8:32:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
CT, the 42nd were British regulars, and would have been armed with service muskets, not provincial fowling pieces.

Howe had his light infantry muskets cut down as well:

quote:
Like Wolfe in the East, Lord Howe was the soul of the expedition in the North. He was a military Lycurgus, and introduced sweeping reforms. He abolished ornament in dress; caused the hair of his men to be cut short to prevent maladies engendered by wet locks; shortened the muskets to make them bore convenient in tangled woods, and had their barrels painted black to prevent discovery by their glitter; made his men wear leggings, like the Indians, 'to ward off briers and insects, and forbade the carrying of chairs and tables and other useless things. In these reforms his lordship led by his personal example. One day he invited officers to dine with him. He received them cordially in his tent. The ground was covered with bear-skins. For each guest was a log for a seat, such as his lordship occupied. Oily pork and beans were served. He drew a sheath-knife and gave one to each of the officers, and told them to eat. His example was cheerfully followed.

(Benson Lossing, Our Country, Vol. 2)

Other shorter-barreled service weapons were in existence at the time, but that doesn't mean they would have been available to these troops. Procurement was slow, it often took years for a new model to get to the field.

It's not so much a question of whether or not it was done, but of "how much".

Seamus has made a pretty convincing argument for 42" being a "natural" stopping point, but then there is that reference to "4, 6 then 8 inches of their musket barrels".




quote:
Originally posted by CT•Ranger

What caliber were these barrel segments? Without knowing the caliber I don't think we can assume these were all from British Long Land Service muskets. I recall it has been theorized by some that the Pronvicials may have been cutting down the barrels of much longer guns they brought with them upon enlistment, as an attempt toward uniformity among the Provincial companies. Remember it was not too uncommon for early 18th century firerams to reach 6 feet in length.

It seems a little odd to me that they would spend the time and effort to cut down British Long Land Service Muskets when there were other Short Land Patterns available at the time. In fact there were at least 3 versions of the Short Land Pattern (with 42" barrels) in use during the F&I War before the Short Land Service (New Pattern) musket, also known as the 2nd Model Brown Bess began production in 1769. These 3 versions of the Short Land Pattern were the Marine and Militia Musket, the Sea Service Musket, and the Short Land Pattern used by dragoons. It seems to me that if 42" barrels were so important to the rangers, then they could have been supplied with one of the 3 Short Land models available at the time. Just some theorizing and opinions of mine.

By the way, the 2nd Model Bess produced by Pedersoli and so popular with reenactors does not date to 1762-3 as many claim. This musket did not begin production until 1769. The reproduction has a lock with the date "Grice 1762", but this date only signifies the date the lock was assembled, not when the musket was put together. In 1764 the practice of putting the lock maker's name and date on the lock was abolished, and thereafter the lock was simply marked with "Tower" or in a few cases "Dublin Castle." So to be more accurate the Pedersoli 2nd Model Bess, more correctly called the Short Land Service (New Pattern), should have a lock simply marked with "Tower."


~~Aim small, miss small.
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