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JonnyBoy
Lost in the Wilderness
USA
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September 03 2005
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 Posted - September 03 2005 : 11:55:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
I don't agree . I have learned that woman are no where near as weak as they are assumed to be.
I have to agree with that. All of the women that I know could easily lift a gun to their shoulder and fire! And I know women smaller than Alice. They were tossing those guns around pretty easy in the movie. I don't think they were that heavy. |
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kdragonrose
Pathfinder
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September 04 2005
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Posted - September 04 2005 : 1:42:47 PM
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I think Alice did love Uncas. If you go back to the homepage of this website and click on the "Alice and Uncas" section. There is a photo of Alice during Uncas's fight with Magua. The look on her face says it all. Here is this man who has acted as her protector and tried his best to comfort her and keep her safe. Now he's fighting to save her yet again, and he's about to die horribly.
You also have to keep in mind this is the 1700's. Chingatchgook, Uncas and even Nathanial are considered "savages". I think Alice, not being as mentally strong as Cora, is afraid to show her love for Uncas because of the social stigma attached. It's like the good girl falling for the "bad boy". Plus Alice's character is only about 17, she's probably not sure HOW she feels until they're hiding under the waterfall.
I also think she might be just a teensy bit jealous of all the attention being paid to Cora. She has two guys (Nathanial and Duncan) fighting over her and Alice is kind of an after-thought.
Then along comes this incredably handsome, kind of wild, Indian fellow who is going out of his way to protect her.
As a sidebar, If someone looked at me the way Uncas looks at Alice when they're climbing the hill on the way to Fort William Henry, I'd jump off a cliff for him too! |
"How do you define 'normal'?" ~Fox Mulder: The X-Files |
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micha74b
Pathfinder
USA
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Posted - September 05 2005 : 11:56:35 PM
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I feel the same. I would have jumped off too.
The facial expression she had when she pulled her arm free. So much sadness in her eyes and not understanding. It is like she is asking: Why are you doing this to him? Why do you have to take him from me? Why are you destroying us? and that's why she jumped. There was nothing for her to continue her life. I wish there would be a LOTM movie with a happy ending. |
Michaela |
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cuthron
Pathfinder
Finland
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July 27 2005
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Posted - September 12 2005 : 3:39:42 PM
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| Oh my...all this talk about love, but it is sad story, I have to say. But what I wish I could say is what Hawkeye said to Duncan in the book, when they had saved alice from the cave: "I have heard, that there is a feeling in youth which binds man to woman closer than the father is tied to the son. It may be so. I have seldom been where woman of my color dwell: but such may be the gifts of natur` in the settlements. You have risked, and all that is dear to you, to bring off this gentle one, and I suppose that some such disposition is at the bottom of its all" |
Harri |
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Lurking Huron0144
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Posted - October 26 2005 : 1:17:08 PM
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I have felt that Alice's focus in that scene was Magua's bloody hands... they were the overwhelming culmination of all she had been through. Circumstance completely exceeded her ability to cope. She was totally overwhelmed... fried. This resulted not in insanity, but apathy.
I saw no calculation or defiance in her eyes, not really even much awareness. It was more like watching a computer "logging off". Files closing. System shutting down. It wasn't like she even "decided" to kill herself. More like she just quit being alive. |
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Lurking Huron0521
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Posted - November 17 2005 : 4:39:51 PM
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I don't think Alice jumped because Uncas died.
I do think she had feelings for him, but ultimately I think she jumped because she had seen too much. Been through too much. Watching her "crush" die horribly was the final straw for an already fragile, destroyed girl who had been through so much.
It's obvious to me that Alice is taking control, for the first time in the story, when she makes the decision to jump. But I don't think it's because she wanted to "be" with Uncas. I think he represented something for her; hope, safety, and yes, love, throughout the film. Watching him die was the final bit for her. Her mind broke. She calmly opted out of any further involvment in the horrible things around her.
I think it's almost TOO romantic to associate her suicide with the simple desire to join her lover in death. You have to keep in mind she'd witnessed butchery, betrayal, countless scalpings... and Duncan (another protector of Alice) burned, the bodies of the Cameron family... women and children murdered... and all the while clinging, white-faced, to her sister and to Duncan.
Duncan and Uncas (never mind good ol' Papa) dying likely resembled the very end of any sort of hope Alice was able to cling to while her world fell apart.
I believe the poor girl had simply had enough.
~Sara |
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Kanona
Lost in the Wilderness
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November 19 2005
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Posted - November 19 2005 : 12:54:37 PM
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I believe Alice jumped for several reasons, which have already been listed on here. First of all, I believe that Alice never knew Uncas loved her until he gave his life to save her. I also believe that at that moment she fell in love with him, and she jumped off the cliff to be with him in the next life. I also think that after Magua killed Uncas that she lost the will to live and the will to go on. But, besides the love part of it, the other part may have been fear. Alice may have jumped for fear of what may have happened to her. She also may have jumped to avoid anyone else who tried to save her from being killed. Like I said, many of the reasons I listed were already said, I just agree with them.
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Someday I think you and I are going to have a serious disagreement.
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Sarah
Lost in the Wilderness
USA
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January 12 2006
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Posted - January 15 2006 : 4:21:36 PM
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I take a little different tack on Alice's suicide. I read someone pointing out somewhere, and I agree, that Alice remains throughout the time entirely british, whereas Cora is ready to change with her times. Alice is convinced from the start that the trip is to be an 'adventure' but that her father would never put her in harms way. The attack on the road is a stunning blow to Alice, who cannot believe that something like this would ever happen to her, that she was destined to live a protected life, and that what she knows of herself as a british subject visiting the colonies cannot be violated.
During the trip to fort, she is comforted by reassurances that her comfort and safety will be restored; I do not believe that she can ever reconcile herself to permanently losing that sence of secrutiy and protections represented by her father and Duncan.
During the cave scene, although I have since read the script which posits this differently, I saw Alice's leaning towards the falls as a foreshadowing of her suicide. When I first saw the movie I believed that she had gleaned or overheard the remark about her father and knew he was dead. I think she was suicidal already at that point. Uncas sees this and pulls her back. She may well have returned or developed affection for him, and even have seen his protecion as a new source to reley on, and loved him very much, but I still think that there is an innate hopelessness in Alice at the failure of her world around her and her expectations of her life which motivates this suicide.
Alice never seems to loose that deer in the headlights sense of horror about everything.
When the situation worsens, and goes on getting worse, and Uncas is eventually killed, a last hope of protection to Alice, suicide is immenent. She was incapable of surviving. Her mind would have been gone had she not died there. |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
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March 11 2005
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Posted - January 15 2006 : 11:47:50 PM
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You have to look very, very closely, but if you do, you'll see that Alice didn't jump at all--she was shot simultaneously by Uncas, Ogunquit, Hawkeye, and Magua, perhaps for upstaging. You can't hear any of the shots because their muzzle blast shock waves were all 180 degr. out of phase with each other, and hence happened to cancel each other.
And if you don't like THAT, then she merely wanted to see what Tibetan vultures look like up close (sorry, folks; crosses over into another (unbelievable) thread). (No, Snowland Boy, the scene was not shot in Switzerland by Nepalese gypsies but on a masonry ledge of an old, un-used, cold blast furnace in the old US Steel Mill in Gary, Indiana).
Qasimoto |
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - January 19 2006 : 12:42:18 AM
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I would like to welcome Sarah to the Board, and to recognize Qasimoto's continuing participation.
Both of you have intersting views on why Alice jumped--viewpoints that I had not seen before. |
We become what we think about. |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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December 18 2004
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Posted - January 19 2006 : 11:29:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBoy
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
I don't agree. I have learned that woman are no where near as weak as they are assumed to be.
I have to agree with that. All of the women that I know could easily lift a gun to their shoulder and fire! And I know women smaller than Alice. They were tossing those guns around pretty easy in the movie. I don't think they were that heavy.
Thank you for your support JohnnyBoy! |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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Posted - January 19 2006 : 11:34:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Diane B.
Alice - with a gun???  No way! Alice was obviously more comfortable with the "civilized" lifestyle of Boston & London, than she was with hacking it out in the wilderness. She was accustomed to fine clothes, soft living & drinking tea in the afternoons. I doubt very seriously if she had any idea of how to use a gun of any kind. The idea of having her overpower a guard, grab his gun & try to shoot Magua would have been totally out of character (and not very believable, either).
Besides, those long rifles were heavy & I don't believe Alice had the necessary physical strength to lift one to her shoulder. Even if she did manage to get her hands on one of them & got off a shot somehow, the "kick" from the weapon would have sent her flying over the cliff, anyway - so her fate would have been the same.
It didn't necessarily have to be a rifle, it could have been a pistol. And in the beginning Cora displays herself as a prim and proper young woman as well. That didn't stop her from taking a pistol after the first massacre. If Cora would do it I think Alice could have to. I know many people in the face of adversity who get the gumption that no one knew they had. Anyway, it's all in fun! |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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Light of the Moon
Mohicanland Statesman
USA
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Posted - January 19 2006 : 11:42:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Monadnock Guide
The thread is about Alice, - who is portrayed as a "nice" but weak individual. She was hanging onto her sister with both hands during earlier scenes, after she fell off a horse at one point. It would be a "tad out of character" for her to all of a sudden overcome Magua and company while doing a balancing act on top of a cliff.
And it was extremely out of character for her to jump . Imagine the courage it took to do such a thing. I know even with my strong side I could not bring myself to do it. If she could jump, she could shoot. |
I live in my own little world - but that's okay, they know me here! |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
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March 11 2005
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Posted - January 19 2006 : 7:22:14 PM
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Hi, Sarah, and welcome to the Board. I hope your posts will be better than mine. Meanwhile, don't believe a thing that this man says--it's all pure blather. He's an engineer, you see, like me, and you can't believe a THING that we say. Bridge falls down and kills people? Must've been the steel vendor's fault. Dike gives way? That @$@#$$% Corps. City's gonna bulldoze your neighborhood? Hey, it was crap anyway. Worse than that, he too worked in aerospace. Oy!
But the real reason Alice went off the cliff was she slipped in some Tibetan buzzard scat. Otherwise, she was just winding up to slug Magua and take him out for the count. You have to look real, real close, but if you do,........etc. Good gal, that Alice! Needed better shoes, though. People might've noticed had she been wearing Sperry Topsiders, I suppose. Doggone buzzards.
Qasimoto
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Woods
I would like to welcome Sarah to the Board, and to recognize Qasimoto's continuing participation.
Both of you have intersting views on why Alice jumped--viewpoints that I had not seen before.
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - January 20 2006 : 03:26:57 AM
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| Qasimoto is right! You should never believe anything that we engineers say. |
We become what we think about. |
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - January 20 2006 : 2:21:32 PM
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The currently active Alice's Braid topic gives me an insight into why Alice jumped.
As noted by other posters, Alice had suicidal tendencies from at least the time of the Waterfall scene, where Uncas pulls her back from jumping in. My recollection is that the braid appears in Alice's hair soon after that event.
My theory is that Uncas put the braid into Alice's hair so that he would have a good "handle" to pull her back the next time she decided to jump off something. My engineering calculations indicate that the braid is sufficiently large to hold Alice's whole body weight. Uncas must have been an engineer too! Anyway, Uncas's plan was working, until Magua killed Uncas. With no Uncas to grab her braid and pull her back, Alice's continuing suicidal tendencies had no counterbalance, so she jumped. |
We become what we think about. |
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qasimoto
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Posted - January 20 2006 : 7:19:38 PM
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B'Gawd! That's RIGHT! The man's GOT it! Those were not mere braids, they were also ARM's (Alice Retrieval Means)! AWESOME!! And, though not ever clearly shown on film, the braids functioned as recoil starters as well!
Qasimoto
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Woods
The currently active Alice's Braid topic gives me an insight into why Alice jumped.
As noted by other posters, Alice had suicidal tendencies from at least the time of the Waterfall scene, where Uncas pulls her back from jumping in. My recollection is that the braid appears in Alice's hair soon after that event.
My theory is that Uncas put the braid into Alice's hair so that he would have a good "handle" to pull her back the next time she decided to jump off something. My engineering calculations indicate that the braid is sufficiently large to hold Alice's whole body weight. Uncas must have been an engineer too! Anyway, Uncas's plan was working, until Magua killed Uncas. With no Uncas to grab her braid and pull her back, Alice's continuing suicidal tendencies had no counterbalance, so she jumped.
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MeggieD
Colonial Settler
USA
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January 23 2006
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Posted - January 23 2006 : 11:08:34 PM
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| I think it was her assumption that Cora was lost to her forever, her protector was dead at the bottom of the cliff, and her facing the life of a slave at the hand of Magua. She may have been in love with Uncas, I guess we'll never know. |
Uncas: "some food" |
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Fitzhugh Williams
Mohicanland Statesman
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Posted - January 24 2006 : 12:51:27 AM
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quote:
facing the life of a slave at the hand of Magua
I doubt she was to be a slave. Magua had sworn to kill all the seed of Monro. He had lost the opportunity to kill Cora. It's not likely he would have missed that opportunity with Alice. A blond scalp would look good on his lodge pole. |
"Les deux pieds contre la muraille et la tete sous le robinet" |
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Dark Woods
Colonial Settler
USA
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Posted - January 24 2006 : 03:31:24 AM
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I think that Fitzhugh Williams has painted a chilling (and all too realistic) word picture of what Alice imagined as her likely fate.
Has anyone ever done an artist's rendering of what Magua's lodge pole might have looked like? If it is made of dark wood, fair hair would be very striking against it. But if it is a light wood (or horror of horrors birch with white bark in place) blond coloring would clash with the poles' coloration.
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We become what we think about. |
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Yankee
Pathfinder
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January 12 2006
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 Posted - January 24 2006 : 09:14:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Woods
The currently active Alice's Braid topic gives me an insight into why Alice jumped.
As noted by other posters, Alice had suicidal tendencies from at least the time of the Waterfall scene, where Uncas pulls her back from jumping in. My recollection is that the braid appears in Alice's hair soon after that event.
My theory is that Uncas put the braid into Alice's hair so that he would have a good "handle" to pull her back the next time she decided to jump off something. My engineering calculations indicate that the braid is sufficiently large to hold Alice's whole body weight. Uncas must have been an engineer too! Anyway, Uncas's plan was working, until Magua killed Uncas. With no Uncas to grab her braid and pull her back, Alice's continuing suicidal tendencies had no counterbalance, so she jumped.
LMAO I'm sorry to laugh, but that is one the funniest explanations that I have ever read! And now I have this vision of the whole thing going through my head. Very creative indeed... |
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Dark Woods
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Posted - January 24 2006 : 9:15:49 PM
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It is fun that several of our newer members are participating in this thread (WELCOME ABOARD) along with more "seasoned" folks.
I think it is important to address why Magua was not able to utilize the ARM (Alice Retrieval Means) to keep her from jumping. See Qasimoto's post to review technical specifications for the ARM.
Despite his earlier vow to destroy the seed of Munro, I believe that the paramount issue is Great Sachem's command to Magua to continue the line through a relationship Alice. The Sachem's command would overrule Magua's strong desire for vengance. Unless she put him at risk by failing to keep up a reasonable pace, I do not think that Magua would harm her. I believe he wanted to bring her back from the edge of the cliff. Now It is MUCH easier for me to say that than for Alice to believe it. I am sure she was terrified by Magua.
Therefore, out of fear of being scalped, the last thing Alice would do is let Magua get a hold of her ARM (i.e. braid). She kept it out of his reach as she backed up to the cliff. Unfortunately the ARM needs a solid grip to pull her away from the edge, or to activate the recoil starter for the safety line rewind mechanism.
An example of a person who was twice saved by the recoil starters of their safety line rewind mechanism can be seen here: http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1997/star.wars.anniversary/where.are.they/princess.leia.lg.jpg |
We become what we think about. |
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MeggieD
Colonial Settler
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Posted - January 24 2006 : 9:57:38 PM
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| Now that's funny!! I always wondered what the Princess' braids were for!! |
Uncas: "some food" |
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qasimoto
Pioneer
USA
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Posted - January 26 2006 : 9:59:27 PM
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WHAT!!???!! "Refer to Qasimoto's post for technical specifications of the ARM"??!!!? Butbutbut I haven't DONE, or posted, any! Well, ok. ONLY because I have entirely too much time on my hands, here're my calc's on UTS, ultimate tensile strength, of a hair braid such as Alice's:
From brief research on the web, a typical cranial hair of a person of European descent has a UTS of 100g and an average diameter of 90 um, where 1 um = 1 m x 10^-6 = 1 mm x 10^-3 (though these diameters reportedly vary from ~45 um to ~150 um). It is upon these values that the result below depends, and I'd have to judge that they're bad data but perhaps good enough for a Boeing shuttle (sorry, DW).
90 um = 0.09 mm = 0.0035 in. (dia. of single hair)
A sub 1 = pi * d^2/4 = 0.986 x 10^-6 in.^2 ~ 1 x 10^-5 in.^2
Assume a typical hair braid mean dia., "D", ~ 1 inch. Make the assumption good by shooting anyone whose D is much greater or lesser. Hitler wasn't all wrong, you know. But, I digress.
So, the mean braid sectional area, "A sub 2", is:
A sub 2 = pi * D^2/4 = 0.785 in.^2
Call number of hairs in braid "n":
n = (A sub 2)/(A sub 1) ~ 80,000 hairs +/-
Again, according to the literature, a typical European hair has a UTS of ~ 100g, so:
Ultimate tensile strength, "T", of a braid such as Alice's, again using data from the web admittedly suspected of being faulty, is then:
T = n * 100g = 7,966 kg = 17,545 lb., a value too large to be believed so hence the web data must be bad.
But, the results are probably no worse than those for securing insulation panels to shuttle booster O sub 2 tanks. Too bad, then "NASA" would not have to mean "Now Accepting Seven Applicants".
But, in any event, to test the above calc's, all you'd have to do is (a) assign a minion to go to a movie theater or a concert (preferably a very loud one); (b) require said minion to take a seat behind a gal with blond braids (and make SURE it's a gal); and (c) advise said minion that, in consideration of continued employment, he will, when a night scene appears on screen, grab one of said braids and repeatedly yank like hell, while estimating the average impact factor to be properly applied to the yanks, for his trip report. In kindness, you might also advise the minion to be sure he has not selected a gal who weighs 200-300 lb., so that when she turns around she will perhaps not demolish him in rage. Some of these gals can be really peevish that way.
No charge, sir; a professional courtesy (?).
Q, WI PE E17440
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Woods
It is fun that several of our newer members are participating in this thread (WELCOME ABOARD) along with more "seasoned" folks.
I think it is important to address why Magua was not able to utilize the ARM (Alice Retrieval Means) to keep her from jumping. See Qasimoto's post to review technical specifications for the ARM.
Despite his earlier vow to destroy the seed of Munro, I believe that the paramount issue is Great Sachem's command to Magua to continue the line through a relationship Alice. The Sachem's command would overrule Magua's strong desire for vengance. Unless she put him at risk by failing to keep up a reasonable pace, I do not think that Magua would harm her. I believe he wanted to bring her back from the edge of the cliff. Now It is MUCH easier for me to say that than for Alice to believe it. I am sure she was terrified by Magua.
Therefore, out of fear of being scalped, the last thing Alice would do is let Magua get a hold of her ARM (i.e. braid). She kept it out of his reach as she backed up to the cliff. Unfortunately the ARM needs a solid grip to pull her away from the edge, or to activate the recoil starter for the safety line rewind mechanism.
An example of a person who was twice saved by the recoil starters of their safety line rewind mec |
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Wilderness Woman
Watcher of the Wood
USA
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Posted - January 27 2006 : 08:12:47 AM
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"It is more deeply stirring to my blood than any imaginings could possibly have been." |
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Why did Alice really jump?
