| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MaguasBastardChild |
Posted - October 22 2007 : 03:08:29 AM
I agree with the guy, His family is slaughtered by the English, they kill his kids and his wife remarries,.if he's telling the truth, I dont blame him and think he was doing the least he could. Id do the same the thing. He also said he was enslaved by the mohawks, Poor fella had a hard time with the white man and then the injuns make him a slave to boot. The story could have made (purposely or unpurposely) Magua into a hero had a few things been changed slightly. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - October 26 2007 : 1:35:36 PM
Oooooh . I stand in awe of you Red . How devious and very much like Magua that would be! |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - October 26 2007 : 09:14:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by RedFraggle
Magua was probably one of the three couriers sent by Munro to take a letter about the siege to his daughters, but Magua, silently plotting his revenge, never delivered any message (and must've gotten rid of the other two couriers along the way). 
Very interesting thought, Fraggle! That had not occurred to me. I think you may be right about that.
 |
| Obediah |
Posted - October 25 2007 : 7:05:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Irishgirl
Old He will turn 60 this December which is not really old by todays standards.
Almost a geezer! |
| RedFraggle |
Posted - October 25 2007 : 5:24:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MaguasBastardChild
. . . Im not that clear on the script when Magua is first shown, on how he actually did get himself invloved and that close to the general and other officers.
Prior to the first ambush, Magua was posing as a Mohawk scout---i.e., as a member of a tribe allied to the English. (Remember that one argument between Hawkeye and Duncan? Hawkeye says, "He's no Mohawk, he's Huron.")
As an English ally, Magua would have had access to Ft. Wm-Henry and Col. Munro, whom he must have tricked into trusting him. Magua was probably one of the three couriers sent by Munro to take a letter about the siege to his daughters, but Magua, silently plotting his revenge, never delivered any message (and must've gotten rid of the other two couriers along the way). |
| Irishgirl |
Posted - October 25 2007 : 5:17:51 PM
Old He will turn 60 this December which is not really old by todays standards. |
| MaguasBastardChild |
Posted - October 25 2007 : 3:31:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
Who knows how he did it but he did pull it off. And he did it well too!
It would have been interesting to have seen all the "behind the scene" work Magua did to land himself in Albany to patiently await Cora and Alice.
What I'd like to see a prequel release with the events that unfolded in Magua's life that lead us up to LOTM.
it might be good. but who would play Magua since hes old now? |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - October 25 2007 : 3:09:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
It would have been interesting to have seen all the "behind the scene" work Magua did to land himself in Albany to patiently await Cora and Alice.
I doubt that it was all just to whack Cora and Alice. He already had an ambush planned for the Brits, and the girls were just an added bonus. |
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - October 25 2007 : 12:10:20 PM
Who knows how he did it but he did pull it off. And he did it well too!
It would have been interesting to have seen all the "behind the scene" work Magua did to land himself in Albany to patiently await Cora and Alice.
What I'd like to see a prequel release with the events that unfolded in Magua's life that lead us up to LOTM. |
| MaguasBastardChild |
Posted - October 25 2007 : 03:11:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by winglo
quote:
Originally posted by MaguasBastardChild
I thought they were coming anyway, but just didnt get the messege from their dad NOT to come.
If you remember, their father, Col. Monro, sent a message to them at Albany telling them not to come to the fort because of the French attacking it. When they arrive at the fort, we see the scene where he is surprised because he had sent 3 couriers with a message telling them not to come. Cora then informs him that "there was no message." Duncan informs Col. Monro that Magua led them into the ambush on the George Rd.
Later we learn from Magua, as he is talking to Gen. Montcalm, that he got rid of the other couriers. So, it is my understanding the Magua killed the other couriers (he may or may not have been one of the original 3), arrived at Albany, passed himself off as someone sent by Col. Monro to lead his daughters and Duncan to Fort William Henry. So the girls would not have even left Albany, if Magua hadn't done away with the original message and couriers.
magua is almost another 'satan' from miltons 'paradise lost'. He almost, accidently, is somewhat of a hero.
But Im not sure he could 'pass himself off' only because he would need Munro's signiture on the orders. as major duncan and col munro were sure to double check during the surrender scene when they verified the surrender recommendations from Webb. It does pose the question, Im not that clear on the script when Magua is first shown, on how he actually did get himself invloved and that close to the general and other officers. |
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 11:36:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by winglo
quote:
Originally posted by MaguasBastardChild
I thought they were coming anyway, but just didnt get the messege from their dad NOT to come.
If you remember, their father, Col. Monro, sent a message to them at Albany telling them not to come to the fort because of the French attacking it. When they arrive at the fort, we see the scene where he is surprised because he had sent 3 couriers with a message telling them not to come. Cora then informs him that "there was no message." Duncan informs Col. Monro that Magua led them into the ambush on the George Rd.
Later we learn from Magua, as he is talking to Gen. Montcalm, that he got rid of the other couriers. So, it is my understanding the Magua killed the other couriers (he may or may not have been one of the original 3), arrived at Albany, passed himself off as someone sent by Col. Monro to lead his daughters and Duncan to Fort William Henry. So the girls would not have even left Albany, if Magua hadn't done away with the original message and couriers.
As Hawkeye once said, "Clear it up any?" Sorry, feeling a little cheeky tonight. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 8:22:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Obediah
Vaudreuil's plan certainly couldn't done any worse...
Then there's the story that been going around for about 248 years. The guards were withdrawn from the area around l'Anse au Foulon by order of Vaudreuil and his crony, Vergor (also a crony of Bigot), was placed in charge of its defense. Wolfe, after months of scouting the area, all of a sudden and without informing any of his subordinates, decides to attack there. It has the smell of treason. There were those who had rather have seen New France fall than be preserved. Bigot have been cheating the King (and anyone else he could) for some years and was about to be brought to task for it. He was tried, but acquitted for lack of evidence. Of course the evidence was lost with New France.
Wolfe had been unable to make any dent in Montcalm's fortifications and had squandered many good men trying. The situation was to the point where the Admiralty wound be forced to withdraw the fleet before the ice set in, and Wolfe, now in bad health, would probably not have survived the voyage home. Montcalm would have then been free to turn his attention to Amhearst, and we can only speculate what the outcome would have been. Certainly Montcalm hated Bigot and would certainly have provided any evidence he could agains him. So the final outcome was much to Bigot's benefit. |
| winglo |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 7:20:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MaguasBastardChild
I thought they were coming anyway, but just didnt get the messege from their dad NOT to come.
If you remember, their father, Col. Monro, sent a message to them at Albany telling them not to come to the fort because of the French attacking it. When they arrive at the fort, we see the scene where he is surprised because he had sent 3 couriers with a message telling them not to come. Cora then informs him that "there was no message." Duncan informs Col. Monro that Magua led them into the ambush on the George Rd.
Later we learn from Magua, as he is talking to Gen. Montcalm, that he got rid of the other couriers. So, it is my understanding the Magua killed the other couriers (he may or may not have been one of the original 3), arrived at Albany, passed himself off as someone sent by Col. Monro to lead his daughters and Duncan to Fort William Henry. So the girls would not have even left Albany, if Magua hadn't done away with the original message and couriers. |
| MaguasBastardChild |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 6:19:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by winglo
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
Good point. But you're forgetting that it was Magua who helped put them there. Remember at the fort when Col. Monroe asked his daughters why they had disobeyed him and not stayed away like he had told them to do in his letter.
Magua happened upon that letter one way or another, used the info to set him right dead smack in their presence as a guide sent from the scotsman.
But he is entitled to revenge and I would have gone after the man too had he killed my daughters but don't think I would take out revenge on the rest of his family. Just speaking MOHO.
However, the natives were not that way. When blood vengance was carried out for something as devestating it was an eye for an eye. You took my kids, I'll take yours and then I'll take you for their murders.
Excellent points, Light. Especially about the girls being drawn into the war by Magua's deception.
I thought they were coming anyway, but just didnt get the messege from their dad NOT to come. |
| winglo |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 5:40:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
Good point. But you're forgetting that it was Magua who helped put them there. Remember at the fort when Col. Monroe asked his daughters why they had disobeyed him and not stayed away like he had told them to do in his letter.
Magua happened upon that letter one way or another, used the info to set him right dead smack in their presence as a guide sent from the scotsman.
But he is entitled to revenge and I would have gone after the man too had he killed my daughters but don't think I would take out revenge on the rest of his family. Just speaking MOHO.
However, the natives were not that way. When blood vengance was carried out for something as devestating it was an eye for an eye. You took my kids, I'll take yours and then I'll take you for their murders.
Excellent points, Light. Especially about the girls being drawn into the war by Magua's deception.
Regarding vengeance, there is always the option of giving grace and rising above what those who hurt and destroy your life have done to you. That is, not stooping to the low level of your enemy or allowing him or her to make a victim of you. But, you're right. From what little I know that certainly doesn't seem to have been the way Indians interacted with each other in the 18th century. |
| Obediah |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 4:16:29 PM
Anderson calls Montcalm's and Vaudreuil's conflicting strategies "mutually exclusive." What an understatement! Montcalm won this "battle" but certainly lost the war (and his life)! Vaudreuil's plan certainly couldn't done any worse...
Another quote from Crucible of War...
quote:
But the marquis de Montcalm had aggravated the situation, and accelerated the failure of the alliances, by seeking to command the Indians as auxiliaries, rather than to negotiate for their cooperation as allies. Eventually the combined effects of poor supply and Montcalm’s Europeanized command alienated even the converted Indians and the habitants, so that in 1760 the chevalier de Levis and his regulars stood alone, abandoned by the peoples they had crossed the Atlantic to defend. [pg. 454]
|
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 3:23:52 PM
Here is were Montcalm and Vaudreuil came into disagreement. Supporters of Montcalm have long claimed that Vaudreuil was working against him and that this ultimately contributed to France's defeat. Vaudreuil wanted to use the milice and the Troupes de la Marine in the type of warfare they understood and practiced, while Montcalm tried to force them into the European mode, and even formed regiments of the Troupes de la Marine and used milice to replace losses in the Troupes de Terre. Supporters of Vaudreuil say that if the Canadiens had been used properly the outcome would have been different. They also say that if Langlade had been allowed to utilize the milice as he wanted at Quebec, the Plains of Abraham would never have been fought. |
| Obediah |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 11:13:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ridgerunner
.....
I do not believe this is true of Montcalm.I've read that Montcalm had a very close friendship with one of the top Indian leaders.(Pontiac?)
.....
Here we'll have to agree to disagree, I guess. The following quote comes from pg. 151 of Crucible of War, by Fred Anderson:
quote:
As almost any conventionally minded European regular officer would have, Montcalm disliked departures from what he understood to be civilized standards of military conduct. He distrusted Indians, who operated according to their own understandings of warfare and could not be subjected to military discipline. Because Indians fought to gain prisoners, trophies, and booty, they could be ungovernable in the aftermath of a battle and were particularly prone to what Montcalm could only understand as acts of savagery—scalping, torture, even cannibalism. But most important, to use Indians seemed futile to Montcalm because no matter how many small victories they might win, they could inflict no lasting defeat on the British: once a battle had been won, they would simply take their captives and loot and return home. So far as Montcalm could see, the Canadian militia and even the troupes de la marine were only marginally preferable to the Indians, since whatever their skills in woodcraft, neither could compare with properly disciplined European troops in reliability under fire or staying power.
|
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - October 24 2007 : 12:30:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MaguasBastardChild
The English killed his kids and ruined his whole existence, so Magua wanted to wipe the earth of the grey hairs seed to keep them from reproducing on all fronts. The girls arent innocent entirely, they are in a war zone and are thus are part of the "playing field." They shoulda stayed in england till the english had a firmer grip on the us territory anyway. I would say family memebers are off limits in a war of that type, but the english killed his kids so
Good point. But you're forgetting that it was Magua who helped put them there. Remember at the fort when Col. Monroe asked his daughters why they had disobeyed him and not stayed away like he had told them to do in his letter.
Magua happened upon that letter one way or another, used the info to set him right dead smack in their presence as a guide sent from the scotsman.
But he is entitled to revenge and I would have gone after the man too had he killed my daughters but don't think I would take out revenge on the rest of his family. Just speaking MOHO.
However, the natives were not that way. When blood vengance was carried out for something as devestating it was an eye for an eye. You took my kids, I'll take yours and then I'll take you for their murders.
|
| MaguasBastardChild |
Posted - October 23 2007 : 3:16:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by RedFraggle
quote:
Originally posted by Kirachi
quote:
I never cared much for the British
careful there 
LOL, Kirachi. 
And now I'll put on my "Cooper fan" hat. (Nerd alert, for anyone who wants to scroll past this post.  ) It's interesting that the screenwriters for LOTM made Magua's hatred of the "grey hair" more compelling than in Cooper's novel. In the movie, Magua acts in part to avenge his murdered children and the loss of his wife, but in the book he acts to avenge a personal affront: he gets drunk in the English camp and Munro has him tied to a stake and whipped. The shame of it is so great that Magua cannot go back to his own people and holds an eternal grudge against the English.
For once, I think the movie version of Magua is more of a compelling bad guy than the one in the novel. I don't think I'd any special feelings for the grey hair either if he was responsible for killing my family! 
Likewise, Hawkeye is tar'd and feathered by the colonial militia, at least in real life, and dissappears forever. From what ive read of it, not much really |
| Kirachi |
Posted - October 23 2007 : 2:09:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Obediah
quote:
Originally posted by Kirachi
quote:
I never cared much for the British
careful there
Well, as Matthew Quigley tells Lieutenant...er...Major Ashley-Pitt, "We already run the misfits outta our country; we sent 'em back to England."
Hope that's careful enough...
Cheeky!  |
| Obediah |
Posted - October 23 2007 : 12:11:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kirachi
quote:
I never cared much for the British
careful there
Well, as Matthew Quigley tells Lieutenant...er...Major Ashley-Pitt, "We already run the misfits outta our country; we sent 'em back to England."
Hope that's careful enough... |
| RedFraggle |
Posted - October 23 2007 : 09:10:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Kirachi
quote:
I never cared much for the British
careful there
LOL, Kirachi.
And now I'll put on my "Cooper fan" hat. (Nerd alert, for anyone who wants to scroll past this post. ) It's interesting that the screenwriters for LOTM made Magua's hatred of the "grey hair" more compelling than in Cooper's novel. In the movie, Magua acts in part to avenge his murdered children and the loss of his wife, but in the book he acts to avenge a personal affront: he gets drunk in the English camp and Munro has him tied to a stake and whipped. The shame of it is so great that Magua cannot go back to his own people and holds an eternal grudge against the English.
For once, I think the movie version of Magua is more of a compelling bad guy than the one in the novel. I don't think I'd any special feelings for the grey hair either if he was responsible for killing my family! |
| Kirachi |
Posted - October 23 2007 : 05:40:18 AM
quote:
[i]
I never cared much for the British
careful there |
| Ridgerunner |
Posted - October 23 2007 : 02:22:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Obediah
...And Montcalm? Like all the other European officers (French and British), he had very little use for "Les Sauvages" or the colonists, either. I will admit that he was considerably more honorable than Wolfe.
I do not believe this is true of Montcalm.I've read that Montcalm had a very close friendship with one of the top Indian leaders.(Pontiac?)
As for British "ethnic cleansing"-I never cared much for the British
but Indians also practced "ethnic cleansing" The Iroquois league had completely wiped out the Erie tribe,hunted them down till every last Erie man,woman and child was dead. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - October 23 2007 : 12:24:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Obediah
I will admit that he was considerably more honorable than Wolfe.
Wolfe treated his own officers like dirt and was roundly hated by them. I often wondered which direction the bullet came from that killed him. The "Death of Wolfe" painting is pure fantasy. |
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