| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| susank2 |
Posted - September 03 2007 : 3:25:04 PM
He doesn't elaborate in the movie...just wondering if the book went into more detail? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hawkeye_Joe |
Posted - February 16 2008 : 08:53:45 AM
Maybe Hawkeye had a rifle like this one, that would have made him "Le Longue Carabine"
1750's Rifle called the Musician Rifle marked "1756 NJ", 44" barrel.
Eric Kettenburg's rendition of it:
 |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - February 16 2008 : 12:36:59 AM
South Carolina bought about 4500 of them in the 1750's to arm their provincial troops and militia. One, at least, is still in existence and is pictured in one of the historic arms publications. There are probably more still around in private collections. |
| halfbreed |
Posted - February 15 2008 : 10:08:11 PM
in fact, many of the german auxiliary troops sent here to help put down the rebellion, carried dutch made arms...a fellow in my hessian group carries a rifle shoppe repro of a dutch musket. i have always thought that dutch made weapons were to often overlooked in 18thc history, fitz is right on. north america in the 18thc was flooded with dutch weapons.
h-b |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - February 15 2008 : 6:39:13 PM
In the early 1600's the French took the side of the Hurons in their conflict with the Iroquois League, so the League they turned to the Dutch for guns. The Dutch were more than happy to provide them. Once they were well armed, the Iroquois almost wiped out the Hurons and cleared out the Ohio valley. The French finally sent a regiment to New France, the Carignan-Salieres Regiment, to regain control of the situation. Up to that time the soldiers in New France were mercenaries hired by the various mercantile companies. Even though the Iroquois were winning, they were taking so many losses that they finally had to sue for peace. The Dutch were, and still are, arms dealers to the world. |
| gema_again |
Posted - February 15 2008 : 4:29:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
In his defense, as an author it's difficult to 100% accuracy in a storyline that's historical. Believe me, I've been writing on one for nearly 7yrs! And still am learning more and more.
But thankfully we have people like Fitz around who can clue us in. That tidbit comes in handy (for me anyway). Now I have some editing to do!
Thanks Fitz and WW!
If those in New Amsterdam were businessmen they would have hired Hessians and Germans as sharpshooters, guards and general security imo. They may have had an attitude of peace and trade but they didn't fool everyone !!
The Dutch who originally settled New Amsterdam were more interested in import, export, trade and keeping the peace on the frontier so business could continue, imo. They had no need of guns or to sell or trade guns with the locals. They may not have considered their own need for defenses or self-defense, imo. |
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - September 13 2007 : 1:01:34 PM
Not many men would.
And that is all I'm gonna' say.
Light whispers to self, "Bite my tongue, bite my tongue, bite my tongue..." |
| RedFraggle |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 5:19:56 PM
Wow, Fitz. Those last two comments really made me laugh! "Le petite carabine" . . . that's too funny! I don't think Natty would brag about that. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 5:02:13 PM
Here is a copy of a gun for sale on the Track Of The Wolf web site that many people believe would best represent a Pennsylvania or Virginia rifle from the early 1750's. Maybe even before that.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=81&styleId=280&partNum=AAC-273
This is what Hawkeye might have carried in the F&I. The barrel is only 37 inches long whearas many fowlers had barrels in the 50's, so he would have been known as "le court carabine", or even "le petit carabine" which might have taken something away from his image. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - September 11 2007 : 12:02:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by RedFraggle
quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
Cooper probably did not know a lot about the history of guns and simply wanted to create a persona for his lead character.
I think you're probably right, Fitz. After all, the man was expelled from Yale for accidentaly blowing up part of a dorm.  Oops. I think perhaps weapons were not Mr. Cooper's specialty!
Blew up a dorm? Maybe an early member of the SDS? |
| susquesus |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 8:59:41 PM
In regards to the original question about Hawkeye's family- has anyone consulted hmacdougall? That guy is encyclopedic, I think he's even the head of the James Fenimore Cooper society. |
| RedFraggle |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 7:43:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
Cooper probably did not know a lot about the history of guns and simply wanted to create a persona for his lead character.
I think you're probably right, Fitz. After all, the man was expelled from Yale for accidentaly blowing up part of a dorm. Oops. I think perhaps weapons were not Mr. Cooper's specialty! |
| Ridgerunner |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 6:14:01 PM
This offers some info...more on the site:
http://frontierfolk.org/ky-lr.htm
The Kentucky (or Pennsylvania) Long Rifle was the most accurate long-range gun for several decades. The first documented appearance of rifling was in Germany around 1460. The flintlock was developed in the early 1600's. By the late 1600's gunsmiths were experimenting with longer barrels than the forerunner Yaeger. But it took the opening up of a new continent to bring out the best.
Circa 1725 the forerunner of the KY long rifles were being designed and built by German craftsman in Pennsylvania. After the French and Indian War brought new lands to the attention of the frontiersmen, the uniquely American long-range rifles were carried into the frontier (at that time Kentucky) by the long hunters, trappers and explorers. The actual name "Kentucky Longrifle" was first used in an 1812 song The Hunters of Kentucky. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 5:21:34 PM
To be just a little more specific, Bartram is traveling in the Overhill Country and while camped encounters a Cherokee riding a horse, carrying a rifle, and singing. Bartram invites him into his camp and they share a meal. The Cherokee then goes on his way still singing. Bartram is always careful to designate the kinds of guns he sees, so when he says "rifle" I believe he means rifle. Maybe there is something in Timberlake. His writings go back to 1762 but I have never read them. Also there are the SC records in Columbia that go a long way before that. The Fort Loudoun folks go there for info. |
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 4:26:25 PM
That's more help than you'll ever know! Because before I didn't even know where to start and now I have an idea! Thanks, Fitz! |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - September 10 2007 : 10:52:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
BTW, Fitz. What type of rifles were used in the states around 1718? Helps to narrow down which one to study up on!
First thing you have to ask is what location and by who.
The Lenape AKA: Delaware.
And the Cherokee that were located in Cades Cove, NC at that time.
If you mean rifle, then the earliest documentation I have seen for Cherokee in the western NC area is 1774. I have no idea what type it would have been, but it was a rifle and not a smoothbore. It was in the writings of William Bartram. There might be earlier references, don't know. |
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - September 09 2007 : 5:53:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fitzhugh Williams
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
BTW, Fitz. What type of rifles were used in the states around 1718? Helps to narrow down which one to study up on!
First thing you have to ask is what location and by who.
The Lenape AKA: Delaware.
And the Cherokee that were located in Cades Cove, NC at that time.
|
| Obediah |
Posted - September 06 2007 : 11:33:11 AM
"I know notheengk!" |
| Hawkeye_Joe |
Posted - September 06 2007 : 09:58:08 AM
Now you are informing the public.. *Two Thumbs up*
quote:
OK, let me say a little more. It says it the earliest DATED rifle.
Here you should have said "American made rifle"
But again .....where does it say that Hawkeye's dad had a American made rifle? Where was it said that he was not of German descent and might not have had a jaeger? Being orphan'd at 10 adopted by Indians and sent to an English school to learn he vooden't be schpeekingk like Sgt. Schultz now vood he? You base the whole premise that he wouldn't have had a rifle on the fact that there are no documented American made rifles around in 1730, again, who said it was an American made rifle?? It just said that he took his father's rifle out the cabin door. It's like saying that they couldn't have had a cabin because Appalachian Logs Homes Corp. wasn't founded til 1995. Ok .. that was a stretch but you see what I mean... |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - September 06 2007 : 02:20:28 AM
OK, let me say a little more. It says it the earliest DATED rifle. There are rifles out there, but we have no knowledge of when they were made. The 1761 date is for the John Schreit rifle from Reading, PA. The other rifles could have been made earlier, or later, or could have been a restocked earlier gun. We don't know. We can only go on the evidence we have, thus 1761 is the earliest a rifle can be dated as being made in the Colonies. It is certain (well, as certain as most anything 250 years old) that there were rifles (and I don't mean Jaegers) in the 1750's. There are newspapers of that time that advertise rifles for sale in PA. The thing is, we don't know what they looked like. Were they what we call longrifles? Or were they the Germanic Jaeger, or were they imported from England, or perhaps one of the German states. Rifles were certainly available to those with money, so a wealthy sportsman could have imported most anything he wanted. There are some nice books that show what the Europeans with money had at that time. And certainly the French had at least 1100 issued to their cavalry as part of a pattern series begun in 1734. That's 1100 our of a total of 25,000 for that pattern.
Now in looking at the existing guns, most are dated to the Rev War or later. There are some few that were certainly made in the 1760's, and some that were "probably" made earlier. These are what survived. The French imported hunting guns on a very large basis, but there are practically none that exist today, and of those that do, most have been restocked. A lot of what we know comes from the archaeological records of various sites, and are nothing more that some brass fittings that we can classify based on their shape and style. What happened to all those guns? Used up, probably, but we really don't know. Many more guns survived from the eastern seaboard, but how many early rifles met the same fate as the French trade guns? Or as the English trade guns, for that matter. I have tried for a long time to find out what a non-military gun in South Carolina would have looked like in 1715, but I have not yet received a satisfactory answer. Certainly they were out there, but what were they?
So for the 1780's and 1790's there are a lot of surviving examples of beautiful rifles. For the 1770's, not as many, but they are there. For the 1760's, less and the earlier in the decade, the fewer. Much is based on assigning a gun to a builder then looking at when he lived and worked, and let's face it, much of this is just speculation. For the 1750's, there were rifles. For the 1740's, I haven't seen anyone who would assign a date for a rifle to that decade, or reproduce a gun that they would assign to that decade. For the 1730's, the time of Hawkeye's youth, I really don't see how he could have had (or would have had) a rifle.
As for the Jaegers, they were a Germanic hunting gun with stocky proportions and a short, thick barrel. They are considered the source from which sprang the American rifle culture, when the Germanic gun builders moved into PA and began building guns. |
| Hawkeye_Joe |
Posted - September 05 2007 : 11:38:19 PM
Fitz, your opening line was the most misleading.
quote:
The earliest dated rifle in(sic)one from 1761, and there are those that question even that one.
That flat statement says there were no rifles anywhere until after 1761....when in fact there were...you have to remember that you and I have been doing this a long time and I know what you mean .. not everyone here does...Looking at known American rifle builders will not tell you what kind of rifle came here with the 18th century settlers. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - September 05 2007 : 8:57:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Light of the Moon
BTW, Fitz. What type of rifles were used in the states around 1718? Helps to narrow down which one to study up on!
First thing you have to ask is what location and by who. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - September 05 2007 : 8:46:18 PM
Joe, I did say:
quote:
There are some references to rifles in newspapers dating from the time of the F&I, but nothing as to how they might have looked, or what type of rifling they might have had.
And: quote:
There were guns imported by the Germanic peoples from about that time, and probably a little earlier, but they had a very unique style and were not particularly favored except by the Germans.
There were rifles in the 17th century, but not in America. The French made 1100 rifles for the mounted troupes in the 1730's, but none made it to New France. Jaegers were around, but in the hands of a few Germans. When you look at the known rifle builders, and when they started work, they just didn't go back that early.
(Excerpts from the Gospel according to Tom Patton) |
| Light of the Moon |
Posted - September 05 2007 : 4:49:09 PM
Some cool info in that link, HJ.
Thanks to you too!
BTW, Fitz. What type of rifles were used in the states around 1718? Helps to narrow down which one to study up on! |
| Hawkeye_Joe |
Posted - September 05 2007 : 2:50:13 PM
Fitz, you are being misleading with your statements. There were rifles long before 1761, not what we know as "American longrifles" but there were rifles. You make it sound as though there were none until after the 1760's.
The French were making "Ferguson styled" breechloading rifles in the 1720's. Bouquet was issued 16 rifled carbines in May of 1758 for the Forbes campaign to Ft. DuQuesne. On 15 May 1758 Abercromby ordered Furnis to issue stores for the Ticonderoga campaign, these included 176 Carbines with rifled barrels. The German "Jaeger" rifle is known to have been brought to America in the early 1700's, it's entirely possible that Natty's father was a German/Dutchman (Lots of THEM in the Hudson Valley) who had one.
From
http://armscollectors.com/gunhistorydates.htm
Rifling was invented in 1498
Rifled arms have been made since 1540 |
| Irishgirl |
Posted - September 05 2007 : 09:19:05 AM
Maybe Chingy killed them with his "big blue hockey stick" so Uncas could have a "big brother" |
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